Mostyn6 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 @roboto is the improvement notable or negligible? in THAT season, we improved from the Spurs game to the Chelsea and Newcastle games etc, wasn’t a worthy level of improvement though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Not really convincing. But to suggest that pragmatism is a common thread that isn't there with Cocu is the biggest joke going. Cocu is the epitome of a pragmatist. ? If that's what you think then I'm not going to be the one to change your mind I completely disagree though - I think pragmatists are like Warnock, Hughton and McCarthy - They look at the players they have available and create the most effective force they can from those players - Often resulting in not-pretty, slightly aggressive but results driven football I think Cocu is an idealist - He has an idea of how he wants us to play and the way to make that effective and is trying to persuade the players to play that way - And bring in players who can when we have holes - That means players (like Marriott) who maybe struggle to adapt become surplus to requirement 7 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: Lampard was here longer than Clement and Pearson, and only a few weeks, maybe months less than Rowett. If you’re able to pigeonhole those three, you can Lampard. Fair point - I admit I'm drawing from my knowledge of them elsewhere as well here - The credentials they've built up over their careers as coaches and managers and (especially in Clements case) the football they had us playing I'm giving Lampard more leeway cos he was a first time coach (never mind manager) with us so I'm not sure he had (or even has) worked out how he wants his sides to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboto Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 33 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: @roboto is the improvement notable or negligible? in THAT season, we improved from the Spurs game to the Chelsea and Newcastle games etc, wasn’t a worthy level of improvement though! Can't really use THAT season as a counter argument to this season. THAT team was the worst in the Premier League ever. Do you honstly think that this squad is the worst in the Championship? Not at all. With the players we have (some available soon) we should be pushing for top 6 at least. The fact that we are where we are now is a concern with regards to results, but I still believe we are about to turn the corner. Last season we had a slow start and we turned it around in January and shot up the table, the fact that we came back from lockdown and ran out of steam (probably down to fitness levels mainly) towards the end of the season and have started this season slowly is clouding some peoples judgements. We've begun the season without most of our best players in the attacking third. Forest and Cardiff we had arguably our strongest front 3 available for the first time and we created more chances in the first half in each of those games and should've been further ahead at half time in both games. Waghorn and Lawrence are coming back from injuries and Jozwiak is new to the team and the league. Add in the return of Rooney, Sibley, Ibe and possibly Duncan to our choices and we will create more chances and have more options if we do fall behind in games to cause different problems to opposition defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 14 minutes ago, cheron85 said: I think Cocu is an idealist - He has an idea of how he wants us to play and the way to make that effective and is trying to persuade the players to play that way - And bring in players who can when we have holes - That means players (like Marriott) who maybe struggle to adapt become surplus to requirement And yet we are currently playing 5 at the back to ensure we have a strong enough defence. #pragmatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 minute ago, roboto said: Can't really use THAT season as a counter argument to this season. Why ever not? I’m not comparing seasons, I am talking about ‘improvement’ and whether the improvement you mention is worthy of merit due to the lack of improvement in league position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboto Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: Why ever not? I’m not comparing seasons, I am talking about ‘improvement’ and whether the improvement you mention is worthy of merit due to the lack of improvement in league position. No amount of improvement with THAT team would ever have got us out of a relegation battle. It's not a good comparison at all. If you think it is a good comparison then that's your opinion, I'm probably not going to be able to change that. I've answered the reasons why I think it's a bad comparison in my last post. Feel free to ignore my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said: And yet we are currently playing 5 at the back to ensure we have a strong enough defence. #pragmatic Well obviously everyone knows that one single action defines everything we are doesn't it... I once kicked a football into a goal so I must be good enough to be a professional footballer - By your logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdyabroad Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, roboto said: Can't really use THAT season as a counter argument to this season. THAT team was the worst in the Premier League ever. Do you honstly think that this squad is the worst in the Championship? Not at all. With the players we have (some available soon) we should be pushing for top 6 at least. The fact that we are where we are now is a concern with regards to results, but I still believe we are about to turn the corner. Last season we had a slow start and we turned it around in January and shot up the table, the fact that we came back from lockdown and ran out of steam (probably down to fitness levels mainly) towards the end of the season and have started this season slowly is clouding some peoples judgements. We've begun the season without most of our best players in the attacking third. Forest and Cardiff we had arguably our strongest front 3 available for the first time and we created more chances in the first half in each of those games and should've been further ahead at half time in both games. Waghorn and Lawrence are coming back from injuries and Jozwiak is new to the team and the league. Add in the return of Rooney, Sibley, Ibe and possibly Duncan to our choices and we will create more chances and have more options if we do fall behind in games to cause different problems to opposition defences. I wish people will stop going-on about the players we had/have missing and how ‘when everyone is fit’ we’re going to do so much better, blah, blah... We are playing teams that ALSO have key players missing. Off the top of my head, Watford has Deeney, Sarr and Hughes out. Cardiff had Wilson and Tomlin missing. Pull your head out of the sand, a GOOD manager makes the best with who’s available and WINS the match. Cocu ain’t a good manager at Championship level as we simply don’t create enough chances and he has a defensive mindset that makes watching games as fun as a trip to the dentist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roboto Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 17 minutes ago, Birdyabroad said: I wish people will stop going-on about the players we had/have missing and how ‘when everyone is fit’ we’re going to do so much better, blah, blah... We are playing teams that ALSO have key players missing. Off the top of my head, Watford has Deeney, Sarr and Hughes out. Cardiff had Wilson and Tomlin missing. Pull your head out of the sand, a GOOD manager makes the best with who’s available and WINS the match. Cocu ain’t a good manager at Championship level as we simply don’t create enough chances and he has a defensive mindset that makes watching games as fun as a trip to the dentist. Haha, you've chosen a relegated Prem team who had a lot of other very good players available to them and we played well against them in the first half and only lost to a worldie of a goal. Your other example was against a Cardiff team we should've beaten, but also had players who've been top end champ/lower end prem players for most of their careers. Morrison, Ojo, Hoilett, Bacuna for example. Keiffer Moore is in fine form too. We still made them look ordinary for most of the match and one lapse of defensive concentration led to their equaliser. We had chances to win. We weren't outplayed. I'm not saying that results are good, I'm saying that we're competitive and have been unlucky not to get better results recently. It's not me putting my head in the sand at all. In fact I believe I am viewing the scenario without blinkers on. Cocu is a good manager and has made do with what is available. I honestly don't think any other manager at our level could've got more from what we have/had. On your last point. We are creating more chances now we have somewhere close to resembling our favoured attacking players available. We just need to take the chances that are created. The 3 at the back formation is only defensive when you set your full backs up to stay back, but Buchanan and Byrne have often played higher up the field than anyone except out striker. Check the stats on that if you don't believe it. I don't think anyone is enjoying not winning more matches, but I can see it all beginning to work. I fancy our chances away to Bournemouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, cheron85 said: Well obviously everyone knows that one single action defines everything we are doesn't it... I once kicked a football into a goal so I must be good enough to be a professional footballer - By your logic Ner ner, yours too. Idealistic when there's an r in the month! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half fan Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Now we know why Cocu's interview after the Cardiff game was so 'off fthe boil" and depressing. His ace card of the cost of dismissing him and his pals, is going up in the smoke of a Middle East oil well. All that will remain will be for him to laugh all the way to the bank. Not really what motivates such a decent man. But it will make a chnage for a gentleman to be well-paid, and some compensation for the honourable prime current recipient of the DCFC curse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 6 hours ago, Birdyabroad said: I wish people will stop going-on about the players we had/have missing and how ‘when everyone is fit’ we’re going to do so much better, blah, blah... I wish you'd stop blathering on about us getting relegated. We all have our crosses to bear it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard246 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 If this takeover goes through Cocu will be out I would imagine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24Charlie Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 14 minutes ago, Richard246 said: If this takeover goes through Cocu will be out I would imagine Perhaps not. You can see how Cocu wants to play. Up to the last pass we are very good but decision making in the final third is pretty poor. We can sometimes the ball that needs to be played and when it should be played but it doesn't happen. This isn't Cocu's fault it's the quality of our players. With more money comes more quality and then the passes are made at the right time and more chances are created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 I don’t think Cocu would be sacked immediately to be fair. Think they’d want to have a look at what he can do with proper backing in January. Clearly the pressure will be ramped up on him, but I don’t suspect that’s something he will mind. It’s part of the job, and I think he’ll be very pleased if he finally gets the squad he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yani P Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 All hypothetical but would have to assume they would want a more high profile person with a proven track record.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 12 minutes ago, Yani P said: All hypothetical but would have to assume they would want a more high profile person with a proven track record.. Yeah. If it was me I’d hire one of the most celebrated and decorated midfielders of all time who has won multiple trophies as a manager. Can’t imagine it would get more high profile or proven than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 25 minutes ago, Yani P said: All hypothetical but would have to assume they would want a more high profile person with a proven track record.. Like a 101 cap former Dutch international who captained Barcelona and who broke Ajax’s monopoly as manager to win three back to back titles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, cannable said: Like a 101 cap former Dutch international who captained Barcelona and who broke Ajax’s monopoly as manager to win three back to back titles? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 10 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: And yet we are currently playing 5 at the back to ensure we have a strong enough defence. #pragmatic 3-4-3 doesn't have to mean a defensive 5 at the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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