Sack cocu

[Birdyabroad]

32 minutes ago, Curtains said:

This is all getting a bit wearing  as It looks like after every game we are going to get the Cocu sack thread revitalised.  

I think it’s strange after a decent draw with Cardiff that we get this happening.  

If we had a crystal ball and the future looked awful I could see the reasoning behind it but we don’t.  

Its far to early to be sacking Cocu. 

Nope, what’s getting wearing is watching dull, non-attack minded football and being  satisfied  because we drew at home against a team that had Wilson and Tomlin missing.

Cocu is NOT a Championship manager, wake up and smell the coffee.

If we persevere with him, there’s a strong possibility he won’t be a Championship manager any longer, as he gears us up for a campaign in Div 1 ?

[Jourdan]

45 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Just a quick challenge (to you and the Cocu out peeps on the thread)

How many points did you think we'd get in October at the start of the season? 

I recall most people on the forum looking at October and wondering if we'd get any points at all - All 3 relegated teams, 2 teams who outplayed us last season and finished above us and one team we always struggle against.

Or were you expecting us to comprehensively outplay Watford, Norwich, Forest and Cardiff? If you were then I think your expectations are slightly out of whack

October was always viewed as a difficult month. No one would argue with that. But I doubt anyone expected us to get 0 points, not until we had shown our hand in September of course.

Personally I would have expected to us to get four points. A win v Huddersfield, a draw v Cardiff and four losses - given our recent record against perceived top teams and Forest.

So yes it’s probably been slightly better than expected, but September was also far worse. Even the fan with the lowest expectations on the forum would have expected more. At least 4-5 points from our first three games. We got 0.

So, yes, you could frame October as an upturn, true. But people’s frustration is not coming from the last game, or the last five games, or even the last 10 games. It’s the overall picture.

People started to suspect Cocu wasn’t the man in November and December of last year. The run we have been on since July has only reinforced that view because two thirds of Cocu’s time here has been unpalatable whether we are talking about results or performances.

[cheron85]

55 minutes ago, Justa said:

No not comprehensively outplay Watford, Norwich etc

But have more than 5 points on the board ? Yes Scored more than 4 goals ? Yes Scored more goals from open play in 6 weeks ? Yes Appear to have some understanding of what it takes to win in this league ? Yes !

Too be honest my posts may suggest that I am a Cocu out peeps but some of it is because I am blown away at the happy clappers on this forum who seem unable to accept any criticism of him !

I'm actually not 100% Cocu out but the record so far (and he's been here a while already) is simply not good enough, in fact its no where near good enough !

I get the frustrations and understand where people are coming from - I also didn't think you were a staunch Cocu outer

If you'd offered me 5 points from the last 5 games pre-season I'd have taken it - September (as I said) was painful but I don't think that's reflective of where we really are

I keep saying this but, e didn't have a pre-season - That's the time where you get all your senior players together to work on style of play, how to work together, consistent attacking formations and movements and things like that - And if none of your senior attackers are available to train then you don't get that

October has been (essentially) our pre-season 

Context is everything and I think people looking at the table after 8 games is short-termism 

[ram1964]

Cocu may or may not succeed but give the guy a chance to source his players implement his policies and have a  team of fit first team players. May be Xmas / January we will have a better idea of how well we are doing and if he his taking the team forward.Any notion of sacking him at this stage unless we really capitulate is irrational,short sighted and detrimental to the club ,players and Mel. This appointment was to be long standing ,with a view to build a team ,introduce academy players over a period of time .last season was a write off having joined the club late in the transfer window ,not being able to  spend,embargos, ect.

Okay performances aren't their yet but dead wood has gone, an achievement within itself. Academy players coming through in abundance, promising astute signings recently made, and our most expensive signing on the verge of playing again after nearly a year out.

let's get behind the team, manager and Mel ,give them the support and encouragement ,rather than slating players and management, and make a formal judgement later in the season.

[cheron85]

1 minute ago, Jourdan said:

So yes it’s probably been slightly better than expected, but September was also far worse. Even the fan with the lowest expectations on the forum would have expected more. At least 4-5 points from our first three games. We got 0.

Yeh September was painful - But we had no fit senior attackers - We started games with 3 19 yr olds as the only available players - One of which (Whittaker) wouldn't have made a first team squad if it wasn't for injury

I think we need to take that into account

3 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

People started to suspect Cocu wasn’t the man in November and December of last year. The run we have been on since July has only reinforced that view because two thirds of Cocu’s time here has been unpalatable whether we are talking about results or performances.

Well this is a judgement call and just a matter of viewpoint

I can see the way Cocu wants to get us playing and I like it - The first half against Forest and Cardiff shows what he's aiming for and I'm a fan - But it's still building and it needs more time to do so

Personally I hated the Rowett period - It made me genuinely consider giving up my season ticket - It was just boring - Effective but boring - If that's what people want then I understand their gripes - I've found the flashes that we've shown of what Cocu wants from us to be much better, more exciting and more interesting football and I think he's getting us towards it

But I equally understand why people might not like it, want quicker success and maybe can't see the progress I do

[Tyler Durden]

53 minutes ago, Curtains said:

This is all getting a bit wearing  as It looks like after every game we are going to get the Cocu sack thread revitalised.  

I think it’s strange after a decent draw with Cardiff that we get this happening.  

If we had a crystal ball and the future looked awful I could see the reasoning behind it but we don’t.  

Its far to early to be sacking Cocu. 

Think it's a bit naive to expect that this kind of thread will disappear overnight whilst we are only avoiding being out of the bottom 3 on goal difference. 

The performances over the last couple of games have been markedly better however until these performances translate into points and yields a more acceptable league position then of course these threads will persist. 

Stage 2 if we make mid table will be these threads morphing into a should Cocu be doing more with his resources discussion or should we be higher in the table then we are with the squad Cocu has at his disposal.

But we have to move from Stage 1 which is not being 4th from bottom to get to Stage 2 which in all probability will then yield these discussions.

I'm just trying to manage your expectations as you appear rightly or wrongly exasperated by these threads but they will dilute into further discussions of the same vein if and when we do progress up the table so your frustrations will continue if you can't accept discussion around these points. 

Anyway just my take and deliberately not giving my opinion on where I think we should or shouldn't be for obvious reasons.

 

[Jourdan]

21 minutes ago, RamNut said:

All of that should change expectations. Yet promotion, and play offs still seem to be the expectation of many. Similarly the expectation that we should be beating team x, team y or team z. Similarly that we should be producing mac1 quality football.

we are all guilty to a greater or lesser degree of ignoring the new constraints. 

Fair points, but if members of the coaching staff at the club are still openly saying that their target/expectation is ‘in and around the play-offs’, how can the fans be blamed for having unreasonable expectations?

Personally, I always thought we were in for a tough season and the lower reaches of the top half would be the height of our achievement. The bar was low, but we have taken it and dropped it even lower.

Whether it’s the fans, the owner, the players, everyone knows that this isn’t good enough as we should expect more of ourselves. We’re not in the position of Luton, Wycombe, Rotherham, Coventry and Barnsley and severely disadvantaged by competing in this division. If we were, the mood on this forum would be totally different.

 

[Curtains]

16 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Think it's a bit naive to expect that this kind of thread will disappear overnight whilst we are only avoiding being out of the bottom 3 on goal difference. 

The performances over the last couple of games have been markedly better however until these performances translate into points and yields a more acceptable league position then of course these threads will persist. 

Stage 2 if we make mid table will be these threads morphing into a should Cocu be doing more with his resources discussion or should we be higher in the table then we are.

But we have to move from Stage 1 which is not being 4th from bottom to get to Stage 2 which in all probability will then yield these discussions.

I'm just trying to manage your expectations as you appear rightly or wrongly exasperated by these threads but they will dilute into further discussions of the same vein if and when we do progress up the table so your frustrations will continue if you can't accept discussion around these points. 

Anyway just my take and deliberately not giving my opinion on where I think we should or shouldn't be for obvious reasons.

 

“Anyway just my take and deliberately not giving my opinion on where I think we should or shouldn't be for obvious reasons”

Of course you are entitled to your opinion I agree but it’s rather unfortunate that the  emphasis is under the   auspices or premis of  

 - Sack  Cocu 

[Archied]

40 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

He's not a crap manager. I think he has issues, that is clear to see.

Where as Jewell had tissues ,,,,, clean up ?

[Tyler Durden]

5 minutes ago, Curtains said:

“Anyway just my take and deliberately not giving my opinion on where I think we should or shouldn't be for obvious reasons”

Of course you are entitled to your opinion I agree but it’s rather unfortunate that the  emphasis is under the auspicious of  

Sack  Cocu 

It's not unfortunate when we are 4th from bottom though that's my point. If we were comfortably mid table then yes I totally agree that threads like this would be grotesque and disproportionate but you would see more of a should Cocu be doing better with the players he has at his disposal type of discussion.

Care to admit it or not these threads are reasonable given our league position but will go away if and when we rise up the table. 

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

It's not unfortunate when we are 4th from bottom though that's my point. If we were comfortably mid table then yes I totally agree that threads like this would be grotesque and disproportionate but you would see more of a should Cocu be doing better with the players he has at his disposal type of discussion.

Care to admit it or not these threads are reasonable given our league position but will go away if and when we rise up the table. 

You see mate I don’t think they are remotely reasonable with what Cocu has had to deal with  .

Sorry that’s my opinion and I find them grossly unfair 

 

 

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, Curtains said:

You see mate I don’t think they are remotely reasonable with what Cocu has had to deal with  .

Sorry that’s my opinion and I find them grossly unfair 

 

 

Let's try and depersonalise this as I am purposely trying to avoid any debate around the thread title.

Any manager's position would come under very close scrutiny given a poor run of results from the back end of the previous season which has followed on to the current season and leaves their team at the end of October out of the relegation zone on goal difference.

 

[Orphanram]

We have had 8 games so far the next 8 take us up to the 5th December

Bournemouth, QPR, Barnsley, Bristol City, Middlesbrough, Wycombe, Coventry City, Millwall.

I think post the Millwall game will give a much more reasonable assessment of where the team will be as this will be roughly one third of the season played.

Anything  less than 9 points from those games would firmly leave us facing a certain relegation battle. Anything less than 12 points is probably the bare minimum expectation. I think we will get 14 points and be okish going into the last two thirds of the season. 

[Mostyn6]

Cocu needs to not only claw back the dropped points we should have won, but also gain some points unexpectedly and get us ahead of where we should be to earn the level of respect some fans are giving him. 
 

Derby fans are weird. They slag off overachievers and laud failures. 

[Jourdan]

22 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

...

To say ‘we had no pre-season’ when 23 other teams were in the exact same position as us is generous in the extreme.

We had a pre-season. We absolutely did. It just wasn’t a well-managed one and set the tone for what has followed.

I’ve said it before but the issues we’ve had are not unique. Every club at every level will face some kind of issue, some kind of hitch in their grand plan, it’s how you deal with them that sets teams apart.

If Cocu is waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to appear before he delivers results in this division, this is only going one way.

[Curtains]

6 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Let's try and depersonalise this as I am purposely trying to avoid any debate around the thread title.

Any manager's position would come under very close scrutiny given a poor run of results from the back end of the previous season which has followed on to the current season and leaves their team at the end of October out of the relegation zone on goal difference.

 

To be honest after the first lockdown we started very well and looked like we might make top 6 then Lawrence put his shoulder out and Waghorn got sent off etc. 

I’m all for depersonalising the debate if the rationale was reasonable  not just sack him and thread after thread on it which has somewhat subsided now .

I don’t think you and I will ever agree on this to be honest  as I just don’t see what sacking him will achieve until he’s had at least 15 to 20 games this season  

I personally would give him all season with no qualms  

 

 

[Curtains]

6 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Cocu needs to not only claw back the dropped points we should have won, but also gain some points unexpectedly and get us ahead of where we should be to earn the level of respect some fans are giving him. 
 

Derby fans are weird. They slag off overachievers and laud failures. 

So in your eyes Cocu is a failure.  Yes or no mate. 

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, Curtains said:

To be honest after the first lockdown we started very well and looked like we might make top 6 then Lawrence put his shoulder out and Waghorn got sent off etc. 

I’m all for depersonalising the debate if the rationale was reasonable  not just sack him and thread after thread on it which has somewhat subsided now .

I don’t think you and I will ever agree on this to be honest  as I just don’t see what sacking him will achieve until he’s had at least 15 to 20 games this season  

I personally would give him all season with no qualms  

 

 

I haven't said I wanted his sacked though and definitely not progressed that today. 

I'm merely commenting on your obvious frustrations that you don't expect that there should be threads like this ongoing and I countered that it's naive to think that when we are languishing out of the bottom 3 on goal difference at the end of October.

I sense that you will also get frustrated when there will be threads springing up if we do get to mid table respectability around should we be higher in the table given the squad Cocu has at his disposal. I sense that you will think these threads will also be unreasonable if we get to that juncture. 

I'm not looking for mitigation from yourself neither expect it as I don't want to drawn into the argument I'm merely postering that the above can be construed as fair subjects open to debate. 

[Rosythram]

58 minutes ago, Birdyabroad said:

Nope, what’s getting wearing is watching dull, non-attack minded football and being  satisfied  because we drew at home against a team that had Wilson and Tomlin missing.

Cocu is NOT a Championship manager, wake up and smell the coffee.

If we persevere with him, there’s a strong possibility he won’t be a Championship manager any longer, as he gears us up for a campaign in Div 1 ?

I know let’s join the manager merry go round in order to make a percentage of our fan base feel warm and fuzzy!

Why on earth can’t we just accept that we’ve done the warm fuzzy feeling to many times and guess what, IT HAS’NT WORKED.

So let’s try a the other way and actually stick with what we have, if we aren’t successful and we do slip a division in the scheme of things at the moment I doubt if it would be that disastrous and heaven forbid we might actually become a club with an identity instead of the spoilt brat title we have at present.

[JustOneBiblicalKazim]

3 hours ago, rynny said:

Does the goal at Luton not count then?

Yes it hasn't been great so far, I'm not arguing that. We need to look at the bigger picture, the improvements made over the last 4 games, since our best attacking players have returned and getting back up to match fitness. We put a stop to the rot of the start of the season and we are slowly building. 

My mistake for forgetting the 1 open play goal this season, in our second game, that we lost, scored by a player who is now out on loan.