Cocu in or out?

[Rambalin]

Pulled this from a article written in July......situation sounds familiar

Last season should have been a transitional period [for Fenerbahce],” explains Turkish football expert Kaan Bayazit. “They had €660million of debt, and they had an FFP settlement so they were very limited in what they could do in the transfer market. They put a band aid on the broken leg, rather than properly fixing it structurally. He was basically the sacrificial lamb.”

Cocu arrived at a club that was changing ownership after two decades under Aziz Yildirim, and who sold the previous season’s top-scorer Giuliano, bringing in a collection of cheap stop-gaps to pad out the squad, including Islam Slimani and Andre Ayew on loan.

There might also be twitches of concern that the Derby job is a junior version of the task he faced in Turkey. As then, he is taking over a team who have lost last season’s best players, with loanees Fikayo Tomori, Mason Mount and Harry Wilson returning to Chelsea and Liverpool. As then, this is not a team with much money to spend,

 

It also doesn’t necessarily mean he is the right fit for Derby, particularly as a successor to Lampard. As coaches, the two are pretty far apart in terms of their approach to the game: Lampard played broadly attacking football, to the point that they were often naive and easy to play against. Cocu is more of a pragmatist, even in the successful days at PSV.

“You would imagine that a club like PSV would be playing in the final third for most of the time, but he would sit in a lot of the time instead and try to hit teams on the counter-attack,” former PSV striker Rob McDonald told Adam Bate of Sky Sports.com recently.

[May Contain Nuts]

35 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Look what McClaren walked into after Pearson went.

Took a side playing some of the worst football we've seen in a long time and transformed us.

Team ran out of steam, he didn't get Chris Martin back as planned, and then didn't really get backed (we ended up bringing in Nugent and De Sart under him, I believe).

McClaren had done enough to earn that summer transfer window. But Mel had eyes for another. 

He didn't transform us, we were in a false position but with some good quality on the squad still.

He played on the idea that if you have keep it solid in midfield (rarely letting them leave their own half), have  opposition defenders worrying about Darren Bent getting in behind so much that they track him and leave a big space for for Tom Ince to run into and shoot then that's all you needed to be a success.

It wasn't good football, it worked for a few months but it wasn't sustainable and soon after an excellent run followed an awful one which saw him sacked.

Maybe if he had got Martin back he'd have changed it, but play Martin & Ince and you're not creating the same space for the latter, qho had turned into his priority and become a sort of pet project.

It was a continuation of the same mistake he made  from Jan onwards in 2014/15. Papering over the cracks with some individual ability taking centre stage. Not signing players who were a stylistic replacement for those lost or  who could continue what we were trying to do as a team,  which we the basis of his entire success up until January/February.

[Nuwtfly]

24 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

Good point. Although you argue he still had a far better squad than Cocu has.

If Cocu gets players in and they’re not an improvement the alarm bells will ring. They can’t before then.

A quick check suggests McClaren arguably had a worse squad! Here's one of his starting XIs from that second spell:

Carson, Baird, Keogh, Pearce, Olsson, Hughes, Johnson, Bryson, Ince, Bent, Camara

Bench: Mitchell, Shackell, Anya, De Sart, Butterfield, Russell, Nugent

Is that team squad really better than a squad Cocu could out (if fully fit!!)

P.S: props if you can tell me which game I took this from ? 

[SaintRam]

At least he's not delusional. 

[Nuwtfly]

22 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Where's your line with Cocu? It seems like you'd back him all the way into League One. 

I know this wasn't directed to me, but for what it's worth, mine is the relegation zone. 

If we fall into the bottom three then that would be enough for me, because the financial implications of relegation to League One, for this club, would be catastrophic. 

[LB_DCFC]

8 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

A quick check suggests McClaren arguably had a worse squad! Here's one of his starting XIs from that second spell:

Carson, Baird, Keogh, Pearce, Olsson, Hughes, Johnson, Bryson, Ince, Bent, Camara

Bench: Mitchell, Shackell, Anya, De Sart, Butterfield, Russell, Nugent

Is that team squad really better than a squad Cocu could out (if fully fit!!)

P.S: props if you can tell me which game I took this from ? 

Our main problem is scoring goals and creating chances. Hughes, Ince and bent (if Marriott was fit all the time I’d dispute bent but he isn’t) are better contributors in that regard (build up and end product) than any of our current squad. Our best players are Bogle and Bielik, both of who can’t be involved in the final 3rd consistently due to where they play. Plus, that team has overall better balance than our squad, especially for possession based football. Keogh is an underrated huge miss, Davies is just no where near him on the ball, and that ability is so pivotal for transitions between attack and defence and playing the ball between the lines.

[SillyBilly]

As long as we don't look like likely to go down he should be allowed to see the season out, have a full summer under his belt, a bit of backing and see what he can do. It is rubbish at the moment but things can turn around and the real frustration for me over the last few years has been watching the naff teams who stuck with a manager ultimately overtake us and get promoted. Norwich, case in point. We need to try something different. The throwing money at it didn't work so we've got to give this guy at least a couple of seasons (this one being a free hit) to show if he is up to it.

 

 

[Chester40]

48 minutes ago, DCFC Ram said:

I wonder what Cocu said / whether he was asked at interview...

'What sort of football style will you adopt?' 'What will you want from your defenders. midfielders, attackers etc? in that system?' 

Other than his stubborn comments about bringing the ball out from the back (post Millwall) I haven't a clue what his plan is / formation is / strategy is.

So.

What is his analysis of how his squad are performing - against his master plan?

And, from that analysis, what is it that the current squad are unable to do?

And, what players does he need to do what his current squad can't with his plans in mind?

I not sure he has any idea

So why waste money in buying players when the manager doesn't know what his system is, doesn't know what he needs from his squad?

It's not good.

Given a clap for the questions, cos I would really like to hear his answers... 

But I am not pre-empting the answers and getting rid, I am trusting he will come good. 

Derby fans put me in mind of the boy who traded his cow for a handful of beans. Always thinking we need to change, that this time when we trade/cash-in all our prayers will be answered. There are no magic beans people, just another more complicated mess that we will try and wish our way out of. We need to accept we need to be patient, invest wisely and build for the future. No way have we given him time yet. 

Bloody annoying and frustrating but stamping our feet and demanding new managers is what has got us to this state.... do we never learn??? 

[Ellafella]

49 minutes ago, DCFC Ram said:

I wonder what Cocu said / whether he was asked at interview...

'What sort of football style will you adopt?' 'What will you want from your defenders. midfielders, attackers etc? in that system?' 

Other than his stubborn comments about bringing the ball out from the back (post Millwall) I haven't a clue what his plan is / formation is / strategy is.

So.

What is his analysis of how his squad are performing - against his master plan?

And, from that analysis, what is it that the current squad are unable to do?

And, what players does he need to do what his current squad can't with his plans in mind?

I not sure he has any idea

So why waste money in buying players when the manager doesn't know what his system is, doesn't know what he needs from his squad?

It's not good.

^ That. 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

We need to accept we need to be patient, invest wisely and build for the future. No way have we given him time yet. 

This is what most want, what we're disagreeing on is who to do it with! Clough Jr had loads of time, Mac 2 not so. Has Cocu had enough time, what makes you think he can do the bit in bold?

[deanoakaram4life]

6 minutes ago, SillyBilly said:

As long as we don't look like likely to go down he should be allowed to see the season out, have a full summer under his belt, a bit of backing and see what he can do. It is rubbish at the moment but things can turn around and the real frustration for me over the last few years has been watching the naff teams who stuck with a manager ultimately overtake us and get promoted. Norwich, case in point. We need to try something different. The throwing money at it didn't work so we've got to give this guy at least a couple of seasons (this one being a free hit) to show if he is up to it.

 

 

Throwing money at it can get you up if your recruitment has half a brain cell, unfortunately Chris Evans wasn't up to it. Going the route we are (implementing youth and looking at the lower leagues for bargains) need an entire recruitment team to be totally switched on! The jury is well and truly out!  

[CornwallRam]

33 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I know this wasn't directed to me, but for what it's worth, mine is the relegation zone. 

If we fall into the bottom three then that would be enough for me, because the financial implications of relegation to League One, for this club, would be catastrophic. 

The problem with that is it would be too late. We can't actually fall into the bottom three until early January, but realistically early February is the soonest it will happen. By then the window will have opened and closed and our players will be completely broken. In reality, we either sack Cocu now or he gets to see out the season. Personally, I don't believe he can turn this around and will get us relegated unless Mel acts - assuming Mel still has a controlling interest.

 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, CornwallRam said:

Personally, I don't believe he can turn this around and will get us relegated unless Mel acts - assuming Mel still has a controlling interest.

Mel not having controlling interest might be a good thing?

[Bob The Badger]

37 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

A quick check suggests McClaren arguably had a worse squad! Here's one of his starting XIs from that second spell:

Carson, Baird, Keogh, Pearce, Olsson, Hughes, Johnson, Bryson, Ince, Bent, Camara

Bench: Mitchell, Shackell, Anya, De Sart, Butterfield, Russell, Nugent

Is that team squad really better than a squad Cocu could out (if fully fit!!)

P.S: props if you can tell me which game I took this from ? 

Bristil City.

And I'd say that Carson, Keogh, Hughes, Johnson, Bryson, Ince, Russell and Bent would all have played today if available. 

So yes, that team imho, is far better. 

 

[MuespachRam]

Bring back the king....#unfinishedbusiness 

 

[BBG83]

34 minutes ago, LB_DCFC said:

Our main problem is scoring goals and creating chances. Hughes, Ince and bent (if Marriott was fit all the time I’d dispute bent but he isn’t) are better contributors in that regard (build up and end product) than any of our current squad. Our best players are Bogle and Bielik, both of who can’t be involved in the final 3rd consistently due to where they play. Plus, that team has overall better balance than our squad, especially for possession based football. Keogh is an underrated huge miss, Davies is just no where near him on the ball, and that ability is so pivotal for transitions between attack and defence and playing the ball between the lines.

IMO you can’t be an attacking team without trust in your goalkeeper and back line. You build from the back so I expect a new keeper on loan and a commanding centre half to come in. Until then we’ll sit deep for fear of conceding.

[rammieib]

He's got crap players at his disposal but if I could see just for one minute what he was tactically trying to achieve, I'd cut him some slack. However, I genuinely don't know how he expects his formations, line up and tactics to achieve anything other than the complete dross we are seeing. 

I'm worried as there are four coaches plus Rooney, and Rooney is the only one who has come out and told it straight, albeit diplomatically.  He's only been here 2/3 weeks.

For me, this week has been the final straw. Now had the worst win % under any MM manager. He has to go to genuinely stop a relegation risk.

[Chester40]

35 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

This is what most want, what we're disagreeing on is who to do it with! Clough Jr had loads of time, Mac 2 not so. Has Cocu had enough time, what makes you think he can do the bit in bold?

That's the point!

We don't know yet. We just jump from one frying pan into the next. Give him a chance. Otherwise we need to stop taking rubbish about building something, using youth, long term plans etc...

Instead we agree that we get a manager in and unless over a 10 game period he has a win ratio of 50% and/or is top 6, he will be sacked. And if he doesn't get promotion at the end of the year then he is sacked.

Fine if you want it that way... but for me trying to realistic...you can't ever expect to BUILD ANYTHING without making a mess, or without finding out there is more money, time and expense required as you expose problems, and understand that while you are living in the seeming bombsite it is unpleasant... Until that day it all comes together and all the work you quietly did is hidden and forgotten about as you survey the amazing thing you've created. 

[BBG83]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

He's got crap players at his disposal but if I could see just for one minute what he was tactically trying to achieve, I'd cut him some slack. However, I genuinely don't know how he expects his formations, line up and tactics to achieve anything other than the complete dross we are seeing. 

I'm worried as there are four coaches plus Rooney, and Rooney is the only one who has come out and told it straight, albeit diplomatically.  He's only been here 2/3 weeks.

For me, this week has been the final straw. Now had the worst win % under any MM manager. He has to go to genuinely stop a relegation risk.

Makes you wonder is Rosenior is pretending to know the ins and outs of every team. Surely he’s more of a hindrance than help. I don’t even understand where his vast knowledge of this championship comes from. Surely Rooney knows just as much.

You could be right. Too many cooks!

[wixman1884]

42 minutes ago, LB_DCFC said:

Our main problem is scoring goals and creating chances. Hughes, Ince and bent (if Marriott was fit all the time I’d dispute bent but he isn’t) are better contributors in that regard (build up and end product) than any of our current squad. Our best players are Bogle and Bielik, both of who can’t be involved in the final 3rd consistently due to where they play. Plus, that team has overall better balance than our squad, especially for possession based football. Keogh is an underrated huge miss, Davies is just no where near him on the ball, and that ability is so pivotal for transitions between attack and defence and playing the ball between the lines.

They were better contributors because McClaren made them better contributors. I feel pretty sure cocu would struggle just as badly with that squad Nuwtfly suggested, and McClaren would have front line of Martin, Lawrence, Marriott and Waggy scoring for fun.

Our current squad are far from world beaters, but are massively underperforming and I feel that rests with Cocu. He's just not the right fit.