Can Cocu Do It?

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Owd miner said:

Chris Hughton ...

What about him?

We're currently a prototype Chris Hughton' side.

Clarke & Bielik are exactly the sort of players he'd sign. The problem is we don't have an equivalent to Knockheart in the middle to do something special every now and then. 

You think bringing Liam Rosenior in, a Hughton protégé, was a coincidence?

They're one and the same, just one is far less experienced in building Championship sides than the other.

[europia]

4 hours ago, AndyB said:

I’m a big believer in giving managers time and not rushing into sackings. I would not have sacked any of the managers at the time they were sacked since Nigel Clough. However, I am now beginning to wonder if Cocu will be able to deliver in the English Championship. I haven’t given up yet but I’m not seeing the improvements I was expecting to see. I am all for him having two more transfer windows to generate his own squad but I’m not sure he gets the English Championship and what is required to succeed in it. I hope he proves me wrong.

Yes, we desperately need stability. In hindsight the Lampard season hasn't moved us forward. Regarding seeing what happens after a couple of transfer windows, might not reveal much, as Cocu might not have a lot of room to manoeuvre. Unless we are talking loan players. Other wise wouldn't we have to sell to buy? Who could we get a decent fee for? Bogle, Marriott?

[JfR]

I know that there's an argument that the style of play isn't suiting the players, but what sort of style of play would suit the players we have? For me, it seems like too much of the squad isn't creative enough to play a possession-based system, too much of the squad is too lightweight to play a physical "hoofball" system, too much of the squad isn't quick enough to play a counter attacking system, too much of the squad aren't energetic enough to play a high pressing system, etc. 

[Jayram]

3 hours ago, AdamRam said:

Pep is his first season had difficulty implementing the style he wanted to play, Koop as well. Both of them had quality players at their disposal as well.

PC was left with a squad that only just managed to finish 6th last year. Let’s forget the two international loans he lost, the ones that left because they didn’t want to resign for the club, the international defender he has lost through injury, the off field issues he has to deal with and a recruitment window that brought in sub standard players to patch these gaps.  let’s sack him,  bring in another manager that will have exactly the same problems rather than give him time to see if he is up to the job once he gets the players he wants....makes sense ?

Never said he should be sacked but the season is over already as we are going nowhere. Personally I think he is the wrong man for the job and that we will be in this position a year from now if he is still here. 

You can carry on enjoying 60% possession with one shot on target per game against bang average teams and I will find better things to do with my Saturdays. 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, Tombo said:

I would agree that the game plays a little different here than it does in other countries.

I absolutely dispute that there's such a thing as "continental football". The game plays differently in the Netherlands as it does in Spain. So no link can be made between his Eredivisie experience and his La Liga experience.

I would also dispute that Cocu is trying to play a style of football that resembles either a Spanish or a Dutch style of play. I think it's a very English style of play. It reminds me of the dull rubbish we saw in the national team in the Capello and Hodgson eras - that's the problem!

Slow, turgid, holding onto the ball far too long, only being totally inept at bringing the ball out from the back, even with long direct balls, which we don't attempt all that often. We would be doing this if we were emulating a Dutch style. Nor do we move the ball quickly and take minimal touches on the ball, as we would if we were trying to emulate Barcelona.

Some very valid criticisms of Cocu but looking to his lack of experience in this league doesn't cut it for me. Like I said, if I take these comments in good faith which I am inclined to do, I would say that it's just the easy excuse. It's the easiest explanation and it saves us as fans from thinking "what the duck is going wrong here" and scratching our heads. As fans we hate not being able to put our fingers on what is wrong. We like to review the game afterwards and say "it's easy, they just need to do X and try more Y and it'll be fine". Its easy to say "our manager is struggling to adapt".

If I take the comments at their worst possible interpretation, you could say fans are hounding out the clubs first ever foreign manager because they had already got it in their heads that they wanted somebody English, because a Dutch guy just won't "get it".

No-one is hounding him out because he is foreign and he 'doesn't get English football'. What people have seen hasn't been good enough. I think people would have the same response whether the manager is from Ilkeston or Iceland.

Personally, I don't think his lack of experience of English football is the primary reason we are struggling. You'll notice that in my recent posts I have defended Cocu and placed more blame on the club and its decision-makers for our current slump. But I do think it's a contributing factor, one we'd be foolish to discount.

Appointing a foreign manager in the Championship is never straightforward. But what you do require is for the whole club to be pulling in the same direction and preparing for change. The manager has to adapt, the players have to adapt, the coaches have to adapt, the non-playing staff have to adapt, even the fans have to adapt. Were we ready for a foreign manager? Was this the right moment?

Take Bielsa and his transformation of Leeds. This couldn't have happened if the club hadn't thoroughly planned for his arrival and embraced his management style and coaching style from the word go. There is no doubt it would have been a shock to the system. But everyone showed a willingness to knuckle down, work themselves into the ground, breaking with traditions and their ordinary routine to execute his vision and flourish under his leadership.

When Cocu arrived, we were only weeks removed from Mel being on Talksport still convinced that Lampard was going to stay. So I really find it hard to believe Cocu will have been met with the same enthusiasm when it appears the only sessions that inspire these players are those in an upmarket gastropub.

I dare say Cocu would have had an easier transition becoming manager of Real Betis, for example. In Cocu's experience, the football culture and the club culture in Dutch football surely has greater parallels with Spanish football than English football. If we acknowledge that English football is different, players think differently, players train differently, players eat differently, players live differently, players see the game differently, is it fair to assume what the norm is for Cocu is very different for the large majority of these players? It seems like what we are seeing is a clash of football cultures. The two are at odds and someone has to relent. Either Cocu has to wise up and change his approach, or the players do, or perhaps a happy medium is reached.

We are not happy with the style of play we are seeing. Do we think that the players are sold on his methods and the style of play he wants? Do we think the players can actually put into practice the style he is asking for? I have my doubts.

I think it is most likely the case that he is discovering that this group of players aren't receptive, are too set in their ways, and so he needs time to bring in his own players to fit his vision, complement some of the existing players and eventually he'll be able to achieve something workable. It remains to be seen if he'll get that time.

But I don't think anyone is giving Cocu a hard time because he is foreign. They just don't think he's very good.

[MACKWORTHRAM]

Max Lowe has liked Derbys Instagram post about us getting beat 3-0. 

If anything sums these players up. Thats it. 

They couldn't care less.

[Millenniumram]

6 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Max Lowe has liked Derbys Instagram post about us getting beat 3-0. 

If anything sums these players up. Thats it. 

They couldn't care less.

Or perhaps he’s wondering quite why he’s been dropped after generally performing well for players who put in a performance like that?

[MACKWORTHRAM]

9 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Or perhaps he’s wondering quite why he’s been dropped after generally performing well for players who put in a performance like that?

No problem with him not being happy about starting.

I don't like players liking posts about is getting beat.

No excuse for it at all.

[Ramslad1992]

4 hours ago, Owd miner said:

Financial squad value. ⚫⚪ Derby County: £47,660,000 ?⚪ Charlton Athletic: £5,670,000 ____________________________________ 19th October 2019 Charlton Athletic 3 - 0 Derby County 

Relegation here wi come

Get a grip. 

[Bubbles]

People can blame Cocu for all this, I can kind of see your reasoning, I made a point on the match thread earlier saying that Cocu wasnt to blame for that match, maybe I was incorrect, but I’ll give my points as follows:

The players: They simply aren’t good enough, you can’t expect Cocu to turn a bunch of lazy bang average players to world beaters, it’s not possible, not even Pep could turn Florian Josefzoon into Lionel Messi...

We did a good job of removing some of the deadwood in the summer, the problem is, it wasn’t all of it.

We had poor performers last season who seemed to be overlooked, and no it wasnt down to the gaffer... It was down to the fact that we had Mason Mount, Fikayo Tomori & Harry Wilson in the squad... You see why Mount & Tomori are in the chelsea AND England team? They are absolutely quality, and we was lucky to have them.

I dont usually like singling players out, but for me we need to get rid of Kelle Roos, Mason Bennett (I know he’s one of our own but, what does he do?!) & there are also more players in the squad that are simply dead wood.

What I, and others saw today was a bunch of players who were lazy and/or arrogant (Not all of them). These are the type of players who need removing..

If Cocu came in, and had Mount, Tomori, Wilson at his disposal, believe me things would be a lot different.

We can have players who are fan favourites but in reality aren’t good enough for us to be mounting a promotion push... 

The old saying is Rome wasn’t built in a day, and we aren’t going to build a quality team with not even a full transfer window.

Also (not trying to cause any beef here) but some fans seem to think we’re entitled to a top 6 finish this season. If we somehow do reach the top 6 i’ll run down my street with my Cocu out... We aren’t going to hit top 6 this season so deal with it.

This season will be a write-off. Mid table, and thats okay! Because we can build, we can develop a winning team, We’ve got Wayne frickin Rooney coming in January, what a bloody signing!!! Hopefully, we will get a couple other new faces in aswell, but most likely that still won’t be good enough, Next summer will be crucial for us.

I read something a while ago (not sure exactly the words) but it was along the lines of how in the first season at PSV, Cocu’s football was bang average, and then once he had the time to build a team to suit how he wants to play, it was much better. Let him integrate his philosophy, let him bring in the players he sees fit, I'm sure he’s already looking!

There’s a reason why Wayne Rooney wanted to come to Derby and work with Cocu, there’s a reason why so many different folk see Cocu as a great person, we need to give him the time to install his philosophy and shake up the squad.

Until then, It’s not exactly going to be pretty, but what us fans can do is show our backing, cheer the lads on, don’t turn on Cocu, lets get behind OUR club, Mel signed him on a 4 year contract for a reason....

Come on you rams.... ? 

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

2 hours ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

This all comes down to recruitment, Mount, Wilson and Tomori papered over the cracks big time last season. 
Cocu hasn’t had much influence on the recruitment, but those responsible for our scouting etc have been here for sometime now. 
The obvious place to begin any staff shuffling has to begin and end there as things are getting worse with each transfer window. 

They are indeed. Every signing seems to make us worse! Weimann was a terrible signing, an athlete not a footballer...he would walk into this team.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Which ones would you get rid of Mr  Squid. 

[MACKWORTHRAM]

26 minutes ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

Which ones would you get rid of Mr  Squid. 

There's not a single player in this squad who I wouldn't get rid of. 

I'm not saying we should get rid of them all as it's not feasible. I'm saying that whoever Cocu wants to get rid of, let them go.

[IslandExile]

Mount and Tomori are smashing it for a top four side in the Premier League, Wilson is playing regularly and won goal of the month.

It's clearer now, even more than it was at the time, those three carried us last season. Without them, without the injured Keogh and Marriott, we are left with a very poor squad.

Not to mention the short preseason and the team bonding event.

To consider sacking Cocu, to even be losing patience with him, when he's been dealt this hand is grossly unfair, ridiculously shortsighted and would, in my opinion, be a massive mistake.

Right manager, wrong players (not his fault), bad budget (not his fault). Support the guy. COYR ?

[Bubbles]

54 minutes ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

Which ones would you get rid of Mr  Squid. 

If we can get replacements in, and wont be left short, I’d get rid of:

Roos, Mitchell, Keogh, Malone, Huddlestone, Anya, Lawrence, Zoon, Bennett, and even though this one hurts me, probably Waghorn unless he can find form.

[lukedcfc]

I expected more from Liam Rosenior, Cocu needs time. We are miles away from being a top 6 side, currently. 

[Andicis]

Cocu is dining out on reputation at the minute. If he was an unfashionable English manager, he'd have a lot more people calling for his head. He isn't improving the players through coaching, we are making criminal fundamental mistakes in every single game we play. 

I don't think you fire him yet, but Cocu has an awful lot of apologists, and whilst I'm more than happy to admit the squad isn't great, he could be getting a lot more out of it then he currently is.

He's been dealt a pretty poo hand, so what? We lost to Charlton and Lee Bowyer 3-0, they were in League 1 last season. I don't want to keep hearing the same excuses, I want to see tangible evidence of us improving, or at least see that we're moving in any kind of direction.

If anyone else points to Farke I'm going to scream. For every Farke, there are 3 more managers that had a shitty first year and continued to be poo after that. 

As of the minute, unless it looks like we're in danger of going down we may as well stick with him, since we've tried just about everything else, but I don't know why everyone is so certain it's going to work out. He was successful in the past, well so what? I miss McClaren. Might not have this ''reputation'' that Cocu has, but duck that. He got us playing good football.

[OUTSIDER]

11 hours ago, jono said:

I give you a cheers because it is a topic that needs airing.

like you, sackings after half a season are pointless unless there is a relegation dogfight and a complete loss of harmony.

i think we are a long way from that.

i think he has a lot to learn. The technical standards are not as high as we sometimes think and as he is discovering at some cost.

The counterpoint to that is that I think our players as a whole do not exhibit anything like the degree of fight or fitness that a top championship team needs. We are simply not fiery enough, we too easily go on the back foot and from there the technical shortcomings are more easily exposed. 

Then I begin to wonder about the off field culture. After the events of the last month I think there is a discipline issue. I simply don’t believe the boozegate was a one off. When I think about our inconsistent performances, the infamous post Christmas slumps you can begin to join dots. There is an edge missing from our team far too often when compared to visitors. 

Spot on. I had numerous discussions about all this after the game travelling home. It ok saying stability but on the showing like yesterday we will be dropping closer to a relegation fight and we dont have players to do that

[Derbydave96]

For what it’s worth I don’t actually think our squad is that bad, could get a lot more out of them ...

[BramcoteRam84]

Jim Smith would have had no chance in this social media era!! 

Weve been in the top flight for 1 season since 2002. I think many of us need to adjust expectations. We have no divine right to be up there and there are lots of big clubs in the championship now.

This is a difficult job. I don’t often agree with Craig Ramage but he was bang on yesterday when he says players are very comfortable at Derby. They have been for years, big wages, state of the art facilities. The players will put in effort but there isn’t the hunger to go the extra mile to prove themselves. Charlton promotes from league 1, not big wages, hunger to show how good they can be to either progress with Charlton or get a big move.

The players are the main issue. If we had unlimited cash we could go and sign the right players and hopefully magic a good season and get promoted. We’re not in that position so the only way to change it is a clough style rebuild bringing the youth through. Takes time and accepting mid table mediocrity for a period, key is not to go down. Mel seems to want Cocu for the long haul and I hope it works, if it doesn’t then hopefully from a financial footing we’ll be in a better position at least.

Or we could look at it and say performances aren’t good enough and we’re not going to match last season. It’s all a mistake, sack him. A new manager with a different approach, more upheaval the same players, the same problems. We might get a short term bounce, we might miraculously get in the top 6, but we’ll probably end up in the same position as taking the long haul approach- but we’d be worst off financially most likely.

Chase success when not in a financially strong enough position to do so or slowly build long-term sustainable success. They are the choices here, and there’s no guarantee with either except the long term approach should at least ensure our club’s financial health.