Can Cocu Do It?

[RamNut]

Fair play to Phil. He said we just couldn’t get into the game.

fair enough. 

maybe next time.

[Pottig]

5 hours ago, Andicis said:

Nobody is blaming him entirely. The issue is, some people think the squad being average means he's entirely devoid of any kind of blame. The only expectation I have for this season is that we are at least competitive in all the games we play. I can name 4 away games where we weren't that off the top of my head.

Cocu isn't getting the most out of the squad.

I didn't say they were.

[lrm14]

48 minutes ago, Andicis said:

We're not just running into issues in the final third, are we? We can't defend. We can't attack. We have a poor midfield. Our ability to stop crosses or set piece is laughable. I don't want a miracle worker, I want someone to get more out of what we have. 

The biggest problem we have is creating chances and transitioning from midfield to attack, it's all linked to the issues you've mentioned. You're always going to put your defence under pressure when your midfielders never even consider turning to drive forward or even make a forward pass. It's why Mount was so important for us last season, it's why Knight looked so promising in the preseason, they both had the bottle to take the ball and drive forward with it. It's why Duane Holmes looks better than our current natural CMs, even though he's played as either a winger or a number 10 pretty much all his career, he's willing to move the ball forward. It's why Charlton's gameplan yesterday was to let us have as much of the ball as we want because we never even look like creating anything.

I won't defend the set pieces or inability to stop crosses because we are shocking in that department, although I will point out that our wingers not properly tracking back has been an issue under both Lampard and Cocu. My point is you want someone to get more out of what we have, when you're clearly not seeing that this is what we have. Vydra papered over the cracks for Rowett, the loanees covered for Lampard but Cocu somehow has to match them with less. Doesn't seem a very reasonable stance to me.

[Highgate]

Part of the problem here is that fans have a different ideas what 'it' might mean in 'Can Cocu Do It'

For many It means success and challenging for promotion in his first season, in the first part of the season even. Others foresee a difficult season ahead and would be happy with a mid-table finish if we show signs of improvement and a cohesive style as the season progresses.  And everything in between probably.

 

[Andicis]

6 minutes ago, lrm14 said:

The biggest problem we have is creating chances and transitioning from midfield to attack, it's all linked to the issues you've mentioned. You're always going to put your defence under pressure when your midfielders never even consider turning to drive forward or even make a forward pass. It's why Mount was so important for us last season, it's why Knight looked so promising in the preseason, they both had the bottle to take the ball and drive forward with it. It's why Duane Holmes looks better than our current natural CMs, even though he's played as either a winger or a number 10 pretty much all his career, he's willing to move the ball forward. It's why Charlton's gameplan yesterday was to let us have as much of the ball as we want because we never even look like creating anything.

I won't defend the set pieces or inability to stop crosses because we are shocking in that department, although I will point out that our wingers not properly tracking back has been an issue under both Lampard and Cocu. My point is you want someone to get more out of what we have, when you're clearly not seeing that this is what we have. Vydra papered over the cracks for Rowett, the loanees covered for Lampard but Cocu somehow has to match them with less. Doesn't seem a very reasonable stance to me.

How is it not a reasonable stance to not expect to get thrashed every week? Either you have extremely low expectations for the club, or you think the players are much worse than they are. We could definitely do with more options in midfield, yet we spent 10 million on Bielik, Shinnie is a Scottish international, Holmes is one of our best players etc. 

I don't think our biggest issues are going forward. If you have a solid defence, you might get a lot of 0-0 draws, but at least those give points, rather than 3-0 thrashings. I think it's extremely disingenuous that people are so willing to defend Cocu here for our performances, when less popular managers would be getting stick from all sides. 

[Abu Dhabi Ram]

6 hours ago, Andicis said:

Nobody is blaming him entirely. The issue is, some people think the squad being average means he's entirely devoid of any kind of blame. The only expectation I have for this season is that we are at least competitive in all the games we play. I can name 4 away games where we weren't that off the top of my head.

Cocu isn't getting the most out of the squad.

And who do you think he could get more out of? Lawrence? Huddlestone? Martin? Josefzoon? None of them are playing worse than previous seasons. You say squad, but who can really step in and push us on? We have a seriously weak squad, the weakest we have had since clough (pre Hughes and Hendrick) there is no senior pro who can come in and turn this round, the only exception is Marriott, but he seems injury prone.

Mount, Tomori and Wilson carried this poor excuse for a team last season, remove Keogh and we are so weak. Carson is also a big loss as is Bradley Johnson. 

We then get Dowell coming in...

You also say you expect us to be competitive in all the games we play. I do to, but dont kid yourself, we have not been that for years. Every season this group of players put in several atrocious performances - why would it be any different now? Even under Rowett, who some say sorted the defense, we got battered at pp by Sunderland, bottom of the league. We also had some shockers with Lampard and Mac too! 

For once, we have to hold tight, ride it out and not press the panic button. Let Cocu remove this weak core and strengthen it. I am bored of the manager merry go round and it literally just papers of the cracks season after season.

Heck if we had stuck with clough, law of averages suggests we might even be promoted now based on his one place progress per season. 

Furthermore, Holmes is not the player we all want him to be, far easier to look good when Mount and Wilson have ran the show for 75 mins. He is now getting far closer attention, let's be fair who else would you mark.

 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Abu Dhabi Ram said:

And who do you think he could get more out of? Lawrence? Huddlestone? Martin? Josefzoon? None of them are playing worse than previous seasons. You say squad, but who can really step in and push us on? We have a seriously weak squad, the weakest we have had since clough (pre Hughes and Hendrick) there is no senior pro who can come in and turn this round, the only exception is Marriott, but he seems injury prone.

Mount, Tomori and Wilson carried this poor excuse for a team last season, remove Keogh and we are so weak. Carson is also a big loss as is Bradley Johnson. 

We then get Dowell coming in...

You also say you expect us to be competitive in all the games we play. I do to, but dont kid yourself, we have not been that for years. Every season this group of players put in several atrocious performances - why would it be any different now? Even under Rowett, who some say sorted the defense, we got battered at pp by Sunderland, bottom of the league. We also had some shockers with Lampard and Mac too! 

For once, we have to hold tight, ride it out and not press the panic button. Let Cocu remove this weak core and strengthen it. I am bored of the manager merry go round and it literally just papers of the cracks season after season.

Heck if we had stuck with clough, law of averages suggests we might even be promoted now based on his one place progress per season. 

 

Isn't a good coach supposed to make the players better than they were previously? McClaren, well renowned coach, took over a Clough side ( a side without his own players, which is an excuse being made for Cocu) and improved the players through coaching. Why isn't Cocu doing the same? Is the only way to coach now through a cheque book? 

Several atrocious performances yes, we've dropped 4 away clangers already this season. That's an unacceptably high amount for October. A few dog poo games a season I can deal with, this many at the very start? It raises questions. 

For what it's worth, I've never said I want Cocu to be sacked, because we have pretty much tried everything else and it hasn't worked, and it's too expensive, I'm just sick of the fact that any criticism levelled at the guy is just passed straight on to the squad, they're not brilliant, but it's not like Cocu is doing a wonderful job. 

[europia]

36 minutes ago, Andicis said:

 

For what it's worth, I've never said I want Cocu to be sacked, because we have pretty much tried everything else and it hasn't worked, and it's too expensive, I'm just sick of the fact that any criticism levelled at the guy is just passed straight on to the squad, they're not brilliant, but it's not like Cocu is doing a wonderful job. 

Yes it's sadly a combination of the squad not actually being great, and Cocu perhaps thinking they were better than they are (prior to joining DCFC) He seems so underwhelmed with the squad and not sure what to do. Long hard season ahead. 

[lrm14]

3 hours ago, Andicis said:

How is it not a reasonable stance to not expect to get thrashed every week? Either you have extremely low expectations for the club, or you think the players are much worse than they are. We could definitely do with more options in midfield, yet we spent 10 million on Bielik, Shinnie is a Scottish international, Holmes is one of our best players etc. 

I don't think our biggest issues are going forward. If you have a solid defence, you might get a lot of 0-0 draws, but at least those give points, rather than 3-0 thrashings. I think it's extremely disingenuous that people are so willing to defend Cocu here for our performances, when less popular managers would be getting stick from all sides. 

We're not getting thrashed every week though are we, we've lost 3 out of 12. You're talking as if we're in the sort of form Stoke or Huddersfield were at the start of the season. I think that's much more disingenuous than the people defending Cocu.

[Andicis]

32 minutes ago, lrm14 said:

We're not getting thrashed every week though are we, we've lost 3 out of 12. You're talking as if we're in the sort of form Stoke or Huddersfield were at the start of the season. I think that's much more disingenuous than the people defending Cocu.

Hyperbolic. We have been thrashed in multiple away games, including against our biggest rivals. Even games where we got results we got played off the park and fluked it i.e Leeds. Speaking of Stoke's bad form, we didn't manage to beat them even, did we? 

[sunnyhill60]

31 minutes ago, lrm14 said:

We're not getting thrashed every week though are we, we've lost 3 out of 12. You're talking as if we're in the sort of form Stoke or Huddersfield were at the start of the season. I think that's much more disingenuous than the people defending Cocu.

But we have also only won 3 from 12 and look at the performances in those 3 games - hardly convincing.

I cannot see what will change in the next couple of months to spark a revival. This has nothing to do with questioning his ability but more a square peg round hole type of thing. 

[Leeds Ram]

We do need some stability and that means sticking with Cocu and giving him time past this season unless we seriously look like we'll get relegated. The performances haven't been good enough in too many games this year and the players need to take a look at themselves quite frankly. They're professionals and at the moment I'm less concerned with Cocu than I am with their shocking attitude which seems to have been around the squad for a number of years. It's becoming increasingly clear that last year we papered over the cracks with 3 absolutely fantastic loans who are all now performing excellently in the premier league. The squad isn't really sufficient to compete for the top 6 and we're really short on quality in the middle of the field with both cb and cm positions needing much better players to compete for the top positions in the league. We're also desperately in need for a new gk, I've never rated roos personally and he's been especially awful since the play off final he needs to be dropped. 

Cocu is a distinguished manager with an excellent coaching pedigree, if we were to get rid of him who else would we get who would be better? Jokanovic the guy who costs and spends a fortune in order to get teams promoted and who hasn't succeeded in the prem once he's gotten there. Hughton who you can make the case isn't cut out for premier league management in the long run either. We haven't had a manager stay for two full seasons since Nigel Clough left and that was 6 years ago. We've been through every style of play and type of manager you could possibly think of and nothing has 'worked' in the sense of getting us into the promised land. Despite millions spent we've just gone backwards. 

In essence staying the course with cocu is better than getting rid and not giving him time. I don't think we've actually got many options either given the amount of compensation we'd have to pay cocu and the squad we have available. Thinking in the long term not 15 games is the right thing to do for this year. If next year by January he's still not delivering and we're playing the same then that would be time for a re-think. Until then we need to stay with him.  

 

[NottsRam77]

8 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

We do need some stability and that means sticking with Cocu and giving him time past this season unless we seriously look like we'll get relegated. The performances haven't been good enough in too many games this year and the players need to take a look at themselves quite frankly. They're professionals and at the moment I'm less concerned with Cocu than I am with their shocking attitude which seems to have been around the squad for a number of years. It's becoming increasingly clear that last year we papered over the cracks with 3 absolutely fantastic loans who are all now performing excellently in the premier league. The squad isn't really sufficient to compete for the top 6 and we're really short on quality in the middle of the field with both cb and cm positions needing much better players to compete for the top positions in the league. We're also desperately in need for a new gk, I've never rated roos personally and he's been especially awful since the play off final he needs to be dropped. 

Cocu is a distinguished manager with an excellent coaching pedigree, if we were to get rid of him who else would we get who would be better? Jokanovic the guy who costs and spends a fortune in order to get teams promoted and who hasn't succeeded in the prem once he's gotten there. Hughton who you can make the case isn't cut out for premier league management in the long run either. We haven't had a manager stay for two full seasons since Nigel Clough left and that was 6 years ago. We've been through every style of play and type of manager you could possibly think of and nothing has 'worked' in the sense of getting us into the promised land. Despite millions spent we've just gone backwards. 

In essence staying the course with cocu is better than getting rid and not giving him time. I don't think we've actually got many options either given the amount of compensation we'd have to pay cocu and the squad we have available. Thinking in the long term not 15 games is the right thing to do for this year. If next year by January he's still not delivering and we're playing the same then that would be time for a re-think. Until then we need to stay with him.  

 

Not if we get relegated it’s not 

Iv crave stability at this club but I genuinely don’t think this guy is the right man, I personally don’t see this style of passive football being successful in this league 

history suggests this too, the only side that passed their way to promotion I can think of was Swansea..

u need to battle too to get out of this league 

judging that cocu thought they way to do that was with Dowell and Huddlestone just tells me how little he knows about this league and beggars the question what mr championship  Leroy rosenior is actually bringing to the table 

[Woodley Ram]

Yes he can

[SFox1993]

On 19/10/2019 at 22:44, Jayram said:

Never said he should be sacked but the season is over already as we are going nowhere. Personally I think he is the wrong man for the job and that we will be in this position a year from now if he is still here. 

You can carry on enjoying 60% possession with one shot on target per game against bang average teams and I will find better things to do with my Saturdays. 

Bye ?

[Rosythram]

It’s a resounding “yes he can” from me let the players who want to play for the club and learn from him stay and those that for what ever reason don’t, let’s get rid and build a philosophy once and for all that can lead us to the higher echelons of football.

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

Not if we get relegated it’s not 

Iv crave stability at this club but I genuinely don’t think this guy is the right man, I personally don’t see this style of passive football being successful in this league 

history suggests this too, the only side that passed their way to promotion I can think of was Swansea..

u need to battle too to get out of this league 

judging that cocu thought they way to do that was with Dowell and Huddlestone just tells me how little he knows about this league and beggars the question what mr championship  Leroy rosenior is actually bringing to the table 

I mean I did put pretty much from the first line that if we were in serious danger of relegation then we should look at sacking him. The idea that you can't pass your way out the league is a myth in my book. Wolves did, Bournemouth did, West Brom did, Swansea did and we would have done in 2014/2015 if our squad wasn't destroyed by injuries. That's just off the top of my head, I imagine if i looked through the tables of the past 10 years I'd find plenty more examples. Yes you can get out of the division through blood, sweat and tears but it's not the only way. 

The idea that you need to battle to get out of this league but not win championships strikes me as incorrect. Also Cocu was a coach for the 2010 dutch side, they were literally ALL about battle. That was pretty much the dirtiest world cup final I've ever seen that year. So  the idea that cocu doesn't know how to 'battle' is again just wrong. 

I'm not sure given the timing of his arrival and the inability of our scouts to seemingly find anyone beyond the British Isles how much wriggle room Cocu has had in terms of transfers so pinning Dowell on him entirely seems a bit unfair to me. He needs a couple of transfer windows for him to get the squad he wants and then we can judge him fairly on that. Atm he's working with what he's been given largely. 

[mwram1973]

2 hours ago, SFox1993 said:

Bye ?

Yep, another one lost to the man city & liverpool appreciation society.

Only want to support the club if they are playing well. Nice ??

[NottsRam77]

22 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean I did put pretty much from the first line that if we were in serious danger of relegation then we should look at sacking him. The idea that you can't pass your way out the league is a myth in my book. Wolves did, Bournemouth did, West Brom did, Swansea did and we would have done in 2014/2015 if our squad wasn't destroyed by injuries. That's just off the top of my head, I imagine if i looked through the tables of the past 10 years I'd find plenty more examples. Yes you can get out of the division through blood, sweat and tears but it's not the only way. 

The idea that you need to battle to get out of this league but not win championships strikes me as incorrect. Also Cocu was a coach for the 2010 dutch side, they were literally ALL about battle. That was pretty much the dirtiest world cup final I've ever seen that year. So  the idea that cocu doesn't know how to 'battle' is again just wrong. 

I'm not sure given the timing of his arrival and the inability of our scouts to seemingly find anyone beyond the British Isles how much wriggle room Cocu has had in terms of transfers so pinning Dowell on him entirely seems a bit unfair to me. He needs a couple of transfer windows for him to get the squad he wants and then we can judge him fairly on that. Atm he's working with what he's been given largely. 

Wolves were just better than everyone at everything ... they could roll their sleeves up and dig in if needed 

Bournemouth were all about channels and getting behind with Wilson and kings pace 

they could knock it about and play decent football but they were far from a “total football” side 

[KCG]

I just don't accept the nonsense being spouted that it would take a miracle worker to get these lot to play. On paper these lot should be good enough to at least get us in the top 6..

The problem is our slow play, no movement, no cohesion, no pressing etc. This is down to Cocu's prefered style of play and lack of motivation skills.