The Politics Thread 2019

[maxjam]

27 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I think most sensible people would agree that after 3.5 years since the referendum, and another few months of negotiating to get a final deal absolutely in place, it is a fair and reasonable thing to do to then take it back to the people for final approval. It's not an undoing of what has been agreed, it's a recognition that too much has passed since, opinions have moved and the country has changed (not less than we are now at least two elections on).

And any reasonable person should be able to understand that, unless they fear it may bring an undoing of what went before - which they shouldn't btw, weren't we all great believers in letting the people speak, democracy must prevail and all that.

The problem is that to get that you have to accept Corbyn and most people do not want to do that. Their election claims to date do little to assuage any fears from the general populus that a Labour government comes with potentially more disruption and upheaval than even Brexit could offer. The first polls suggest a significant Conservative majority anyway so I do think the writing is pretty much on the wall. Then, in a few years, all the people who voted for it can find someone else to blame as to why it didn't quite go the way they think they voted for it to be - with a very real risk that someone like Farage or Mogg will fill that power vacuum with a tirade of bile and hate against the obvious candidates.

It's a very sad day when you lose faith in your political system - May followed by Johnson has done that for me. We are in darker times now than even at the height of The Witch, and I genuinely fear for where we will be ten years further down the road.

Another way of looking at it is that most sensible people (and politicians) would have got behind the result of the referendum and worked hard to get the best deal possible then put all their energies into making Britain the best it could be.  Instead we have had politicians working against the result and large sections of society doing their damnedest to get the decision reversed.

It is indeed a very sad day when you lose faith in your political system.

[Stive Pesley]

16 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

 we already have a final deal in place and, though obviously a compromise, at least looks a bit like a Brexit that IMO most Leave voters could accept.

Well yeah - May had a deal but the ERG weren't prepared to vote for it (despite apparently wanting Brexit at all costs) - so they forced May out, took over the Tory party, kicked out their remain MPs and negotiated a "new" deal that was almost identical but still couldn't get ot through parliament without a working majority.

Are you advocating a second referendum on Johnson's deal vs Remain? I don't mind that. I'm up for a second referendum with a Leave deal on the table to be dissected. Should have been like that in the first place

[AndyinLiverpool]

19 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Another way of looking at it is that most sensible people (and politicians) would have got behind the result of the referendum and worked hard to get the best deal possible then put all their energies into making Britain the best it could be.  Instead we have had politicians working against the result and large sections of society doing their damnedest to get the decision reversed.

It is indeed a very sad day when you lose faith in your political system.

The political system needs a complete overhaul. The more people who lose faith in it, the better.

May and the Tories decided to make Brexit a Tory-negotiated deal. That was always going to be doomed. Johnson has done the same. How does parliament get behind the result of the referendum if they don't agree with the deal the government has made?

[Wolfie]

10 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Well yeah - May had a deal but the ERG weren't prepared to vote for it (despite apparently wanting Brexit at all costs) - so they forced May out, took over the Tory party, kicked out their remain MPs and negotiated a "new" deal that was almost identical but still couldn't get ot through parliament without a working majority.

It was never voted on but I take your point.

10 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Are you advocating a second referendum on Johnson's deal vs Remain? I don't mind that. I'm up for a second referendum with a Leave deal on the table to be dissected. Should have been like that in the first place

I'd rather that, than the false choice IMO put forward by Labour. Adhering to, and paying for the EU but having zero say in it just sounds like madness to me.

To be perfectly honest, if a referendum could be arranged within a couple of months of the GE, then I'd probably go for that - if only to hopefully put the argument to bed & give some clarity. We've just got to move on. The uncertainty is killing businesses.

They could have the deal voted through parliament in advance, subject to the Referendum result - so the day after the poll, we could leave or revoke Article 50.

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Cant say there is any one thing.

And to be honest, its probably for completely the wrong reasons.

I still think leaving is the right thing to do but remaining, with reforms, would have been tolerable and not see the massive divisions that the vote has led to.

Whisper it quietly but I voted leave,  mainly to spite Cameron and Osborne who presented very poor arguments for remaining. 

I too now regret the outcome very much and hold my hands up about the ignorance of the key issues.

But I also recall that nobody campaigned on a "let's make the EU work for us " platform. I realise that we cannot rewrite history but regret that I think such a positive EU campaign would have resonated far better than the silly technical economics that became "project fear".

[BaaLocks]

50 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Why do you insist on painting anyone who doesn't agree with you as neither sensible nor reasonable?.

I happen to be both.

Putting aside the "lets negotiate a deal and then campaign against it" thing, we already have a final deal in place and, though obviously a compromise, at least looks a bit like a Brexit that IMO most Leave voters could accept.

Labour's deal would be so soft that their referendum choice would be Remain vs Might as well Remain

It wasn't my intent to suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with me are unreasonable (save a couple of posters here who seem would argue with their shadow if it passed the time of day). But I do think a lot of water has passed under the bridge now and we owe it to ourselves.

To your point on going with the deal, I actually agree with you (I think) that this is the best path forward. My fear is not the deal, though it would impact all of us severely, but the risk that this time next year we would be back staring at a No Deal if the transition period doesn't go well (and the last three years suggests that might well be the case). I am also conflicted, I don't think it can be right to be a member of an institution that makes it so difficult to leave. But I also recognise, or at least believe, we will be worse of by doing so though I appreciate it is probably in the national interest to just get on with it and get it done.

I agree with an earlier comment by @maxjam that the sensible thing to have done would have been to just get this done and I despair at Remainers thrashing out discussions on a deal that they are just going to reject anyway. It's just as wrong as the other end of the spectrum.

We won't be getting Corbyn in the next election, and even if we did there is no way he could resist his nationalisation plan before Brexit so even if he says otherwise it would be a low priority for him.

Which means the path is clear for another year and more of Johnson and his crew saying the same thing over again and again in the hope that people will just give up and let him have it. He, and a few others, will become exceptionally wealthy (and powerful) as a result, the likes of me and you will bear the brunt. But it's what we asked for so it's what we shall get.

[BaaLocks]

9 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

But I also recall that nobody campaigned on a "let's make the EU work for us " platform. I realise that we cannot rewrite history but regret that I think such a positive EU campaign would have resonated far better than the silly technical economics that became "project fear".

Too true - most thought it not worthy of too much effort. If 'Led By Donkeys' had managed the Remain campaign this would all now just be a distant memory. And it still holds true today, the media have given up on protecting the truth, or rather cannot in the swamp of social media claim and counter claim. Dark times, as I said.

[maxjam]

29 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

The political system needs a complete overhaul. The more people who lose faith in it, the better.

May and the Tories decided to make Brexit a Tory-negotiated deal. That was always going to be doomed. Johnson has done the same. How does parliament get behind the result of the referendum if they don't agree with the deal the government has made?

I'd agree whole-heartedly with your first couple of sentences.

Do you think the Tories and Labour could agree on a deal though, especially since the Tories are moving the hard right and Labour have gone off the deep end wheres the common ground?  A team of independent negotiators should have been tasked with getting us the best deal possible with agreement from parliament to pass it.  

Its gone on for so long now though that someone just has to take the bull by the horns and get it done, the bitterness will last a generation regardless.  Second referendums will solve nothing, that time has passed.  If its the wrong result again we'll simply get more delay and obsfucation if the result is different from the first half the population will feel cheated with a good percentage of them angry - and rightly so imo.  

It just needs to get done now and we deal with the consequences, it would have been a lot easier if everyone was onboard though.

[AndyinLiverpool]

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'd agree whole-heartedly with your first couple of sentences.

Do you think the Tories and Labour could agree on a deal though, especially since the Tories are moving the hard right and Labour have gone off the deep end wheres the common ground?  A team of independent negotiators should have been tasked with getting us the best deal possible with agreement from parliament to pass it.  

Its gone on for so long now though that someone just has to take the bull by the horns and get it done, the bitterness will last a generation regardless.  Second referendums will solve nothing, that time has passed.  If its the wrong result again we'll simply get more delay and obsfucation if the result is different from the first half the population will feel cheated with a good percentage of them angry - and rightly so imo.  

It just needs to get done now and we deal with the consequences, it would have been a lot easier if everyone was onboard though.

It's too late now. The time for togetherness was the day after the referendum. Our political leaders were not big enough for that. We needed Mandelas. We got Malans and Vorsters.

[alexxxxx]

11 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'd agree whole-heartedly with your first couple of sentences.

Do you think the Tories and Labour could agree on a deal though, especially since the Tories are moving the hard right and Labour have gone off the deep end wheres the common ground?  A team of independent negotiators should have been tasked with getting us the best deal possible with agreement from parliament to pass it.  

Its gone on for so long now though that someone just has to take the bull by the horns and get it done, the bitterness will last a generation regardless.  Second referendums will solve nothing, that time has passed.  If its the wrong result again we'll simply get more delay and obsfucation if the result is different from the first half the population will feel cheated with a good percentage of them angry - and rightly so imo.  

It just needs to get done now and we deal with the consequences, it would have been a lot easier if everyone was onboard though.

What's the best deal possible? 

For me a best deal possible exists within the EEA. For others the best deal possible is a road map to full dealignment.

Theyre both brexit.

There's no such thing as 'just get brexit done.' 

[Stive Pesley]

29 minutes ago, maxjam said:

if the result is different from the first half the population will feel cheated with a good percentage of them angry - and rightly so imo.  

so you're agreeing that it's also right for half the population to feel cheated by/angry about the result of the first referendum too?

Any situation that leaves half the country feeling that way is a horrendous place to be as a nation.

Either way it's critical we have leadership that wants to heal that division and bring people back together. Sorry to say that ain't Boris. He will just make it worse

[G STAR RAM]

10 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

so you're agreeing that it's also right for half the population to feel cheated by/angry about the result of the first referendum too?

Any situation that leaves half the country feeling that way is a horrendous place to be as a nation.

Either way it's critical we have leadership that wants to heal that division and bring people back together. Sorry to say that ain't Boris. He will just make it worse

Which politician is going to bring the people back together and heal the divisions, and how?

[Spanish]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Which politician is going to bring the people back together and heal the divisions, and how?

Mary Poppins, everybody likes her.  Nobody else I can think of

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Most reasonable and sensible people accept the results of Referendums.

Unless you talk BaaLocks all the time. ?

[maxjam]

31 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

What's the best deal possible? 

For me a best deal possible exists within the EEA. For others the best deal possible is a road map to full dealignment.

Theyre both brexit.

There's no such thing as 'just get brexit done.' 

The best possible deal was there to be done in the months after the referendum, when politicians of all parties accepted the result and promised to honour it. 

Getting Brexit done now is whoever gets a majority (assuming someone does get a majority) at the General Election pushes their version through - whether its remain, soft brexit or clean break.  There is no outcome that will please everyone, just get it done and deal with the fallout.  I don't personally think thats the best outcome but after 3 years is there an alternative one?

[Stive Pesley]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Which politician is going to bring the people back together and heal the divisions, and how?

I wish I knew ?

 

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

The best possible deal was there to be done in the months after the referendum, when politicians of all parties accepted the result and promised to honour it. 

Getting Brexit done now is whoever gets a majority (assuming someone does get a majority) at the General Election pushes their version through - whether its remain, soft brexit or clean break.  There is no outcome that will please everyone, just get it done and deal with the fallout.  I don't personally think thats the best outcome but after 3 years is there an alternative one?

If only the conservatives hadn't been so unbelievably arrogant with their/May's deal, and instead invited a cross-party group of MPs to form a negotiation committee, we might have saved this. In fact knowing the poostorm that we've seen for the last 3 years, an interim Government of National Unity would have been far more sensible. But May was convinced she'd be the hero that negotiated the Brexit deal, but all she did was give the ERG room to force themselves into control of the Tory party.

[BaaLocks]

30 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

What's the best deal possible? 

It's the deal that can be done I am afraid. I think this idea that we can somehow influence what type of Brexit we get has probably gone - it's a very simple take what's on the table or don't. What happens if we don't is then one of two outcomes - no deal or remain. We're in that place I guess.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Second referendums will solve nothing, that time has passed.  If its the wrong result again we'll simply get more delay and obsfucation if the result is different from the first half the population will feel cheated with a good percentage of them angry - and rightly so imo. 

It depends on how we frame the question (which I guess was the problem first time around so maybe we learned something there). Look, I totally agree we should not be putting something back on the table just because some people didn't get what they want. But if we frame it as 'these are the details under which we wish our exit to happen' then we have a chance. That said, my fear is that this will simply divide us even further - not so much in the Remainers getting chance to get it all reversed but more at the other end of the extreme with hard deal and no deal feeling even more aggrieved than anyone. After all, they thought they had won their independence day.

[BaaLocks]

21 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I wish I knew ?

 

Kier Starmer would be my bet but his boss will have to go back to his allotment before that can happen. From the Right it really is difficult, even trying to be consiliatory, to see who could - Gove? Mogg? Cleverly? Javid? Ruth Davidson could have but her race is run.