The Politics Thread 2019

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, Spanish said:

According to UNESCO, the terms xenophobia and racism often overlap, but differ in how the latter encompasses prejudice based on physical characteristics while the former is generally centered on behavior based on the notion of a specified people being adverse to the culture or nation.  Both are disgusting.

why are you so carefully ringfencing the word racist?

Because I think watering down of the word and applying to virtually everything said by white males, will make the word redundant and have people forgetting exactly what they are campaigning against.

You just have to look at the Bernardo Silva/Mendy incident to see how people are actually losing sight of what racism actually is.

[Stive Pesley]

35 minutes ago, Norman said:

You can't just say we should be able to take on a city the size of Newcastle a year, and have enough money and resources to build brand new prisons, roads, rails, hospitals etc. It costs far more than what you collect in taxes from 300,000 people.

Except for the past 20 years net migration to the UK has been pretty steadily between 150,000 and 250,000. Which is what you'd expect from a growing and thriving nation. You could probably say that it's kept the ecomony afloat to a degree.

I've said all along that the unwitting strategy of Brexit has been to turn the country into such an unattractive, impoverished shithole that no one in their right mind would want to come and live here!

44 minutes ago, maxjam said:

With regards to controlling migration the Tories have put forwards a new immigration policiy which is a start.  I'll choose my words carefully and leave it at that.

You mean the one that appears to have no actual details and for which Raab said "there would be no arbitrary target for total immigration levels"
You're happy with that? Because it doesn't sound very controlled to me

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Except for the past 20 years net migration to the UK has been pretty steadily between 150,000 and 250,000. Which is what you'd expect from a growing and thriving nation. You could probably say that it's kept the ecomony afloat to a degree.

I've said all along that the unwitting strategy of Brexit has been to turn the country into such an unattractive, impoverished shithole that no one in their right mind would want to come and live here

Actually, our economy hasn't been thriving, has it? Things have never been so bad if you look at most of the posts by Labour voters on here. 

This is the most free, democratic, diverse, educated country on the planet. People will always want to live here. It's a brilliant country. It always will be. Which is why record numbers still want to come here. 

[Spanish]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Because I think watering down of the word and applying to virtually everything said by white males, will make the word redundant and have people forgetting exactly what they are campaigning against.

You just have to look at the Bernardo Silva/Mendy incident to see how people are actually losing sight of what racism actually is.

yep it certainly has gone too far.  Associations across lots of disciplines are desperate not to be seen as not taking the  problem seriously enough so they over react.  Not sure how this tide can be stopped and it starts from  a good place. 

With any sort of prejudice (including sexism, apartheid) there are some that complain from the start and some that join in when it has gone too far.   Personally, it gets my goat when things are done to appeal to baser instincts of some irrespective of whether it is racist or xenophobic.  As an outsider I can tell you where the core feelings of brexiters I have spoken to.  Dress it up as NHS or whatever but there is a deeper prejudice.  Maybe I'm wrong and I certainly can't say I have spoken to everybody but I do have a suspicion that I cannot shake.  Perhaps its because I am a foreigner myself and feel the issue more intently as a consequence

[Spanish]

5 minutes ago, Norman said:

Actually, our economy hasn't been thriving, has it? Things have never been so bad if you look at most of the posts by Labour voters on here. 

This is the most free, democratic, diverse, educated country on the planet. People will always want to live here. It's a brilliant country. It always will be. Which is why record numbers still want to come here. 

I thought many think it's just down to benefits?

[Norman]

4 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I thought many think it's just down to benefits?

They are benifits. 

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Except for the past 20 years net migration to the UK has been pretty steadily between 150,000 and 250,000. Which is what you'd expect from a growing and thriving nation. You could probably say that it's kept the ecomony afloat to a degree.

I've said all along that the unwitting strategy of Brexit has been to turn the country into such an unattractive, impoverished shithole that no one in their right mind would want to come and live here!

You mean the one that appears to have no actual details and for which Raab said "there would be no arbitrary target for total immigration levels"
You're happy with that? Because it doesn't sound very controlled to me

No need for Brexit, I can think of a few places who pass the test with flying colours.

[Spanish]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

They are benifits. 

you know what I mean

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

At the date of the Referendum I was a 'Leave at all costs' voter.

Given your last few comments I'm certainly in favour of you leaving at all costs.

Just to recap:

ME: And by your logic Hitler wasn't actually racist as Jews are white skinned?

YOU: Judaism is a religion not a race?

Then,

SPANISH: why are you so carefully ringfencing the word racist?

YOU: Because I think watering down of the word <snip> will make the word redundant

I will be blocking you from now on - you are either just argumentative to the point of intransigence or you have some beliefs that I really don't want to know any more about.

[Norman]

4 minutes ago, Spanish said:

you know what I mean

Oh, you mean the healthcare system, welfare system etc. 

Yeah, they're benefits from being such a great country too. 

[Norman]

Just now, BaaLocks said:

Given your last few comments I'm certainly in favour of you leaving at all costs.

Just to recap:

ME: And by your logic Hitler wasn't actually racist as Jews are white skinned?

YOU: Judaism is a religion not a race?

Then,

SPANISH: why are you so carefully ringfencing the word racist?

YOU: Because I think watering down of the word <snip> will make the word redundant

I will be blocking you from now on - you are either just argumentative to the point of intransigence or you have some beliefs that I really don't want to know any more about.

You calling him racist? You might as well just say it. 

Go to your safe space or something. 

[BaaLocks]

33 minutes ago, Norman said:

You calling him racist? You might as well just say it. 

Go to your safe space or something. 

No, I don't think he's a racist. But I do think (s)he's someone who would argue black is white (excuse the pun!) for reasons that I don't think even he / she understands the reasons why. That's the joys of MB's but when you start trying to argue that Hitler wasn't racist because Jews aren't a race then that's enough for me - it's not what I want to discuss any more.

You probably feel the same about me, I doubt none of us will lose too much sleep over it.

[maxjam]

43 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

You mean the one that appears to have no actual details and for which Raab said "there would be no arbitrary target for total immigration levels"
You're happy with that? Because it doesn't sound very controlled to me

I guess if you take his comments out of context it doesn't sound very controlled.  TBH I haven't heard what Raab said but as far as I'm aware the Tory pledge is to reduce overall immigration, reduce unskilled migrants and introduce a points based system - seems like a better idea than just allowing thr first 300k people into the country then shutting the door. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50412772

[King Kevin]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Funding the NHS, that is now given less per head of the population than ten years ago

Hardly surprising considering the rapid population growth through immigration .If public services had kept pace I don't think anyone would complain.

Clearly although you might imagine .that people coming to the UK would benefit the system with increased tax income, this is not the case as benefits in some cases exceed income . Some going abroad for children who have never been in the UK.

I don't blame anyone wanting to come over work hard and better themselves but don't let us kid ourselves it's productive overall. I see proof that it isn't every day. It's our system that's wrong.

 

[Norman]

22 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

No, I don't think he's a racist. But I do think (s)he's someone who would argue black is white (excuse the pun!) for reasons that I don't think even he / she understands the reasons why. That's the joys of MB's but when you start trying to argue that Hitler wasn't racist because Jews aren't a race then that's enough for me - it's not what I want to discuss any more.

You probably feel the same about me, I doubt none of us will lose too much sleep over it.

I think you lost the debate, plucked Hitler put of the air and he pointed it is a religion. Probably to piss you off a bit more. 

He never said Hitler wasn't racist.  You're reading what you want.

Maybe report it to @GboroRam?. The intolerance. 

I'm joking about that by the way. I do however believe anti-semitism is racism. And the Labour Party is full of anti-semites. Only 6 percent of Jewish people are willing to vote Labour. Shocking. 

[BaaLocks]

10 minutes ago, Norman said:

I think you lost the debate, plucked Hitler put of the air and he pointed it is a religion. Probably to piss you off a bit more. 

He never said Hitler wasn't racist.  You're reading what you want. Maybe report it to @GboroRam

I do however believe anti-semitism is racism. And the Labour Party is full of anti-semites. Only 6 percent of Jewish people are willing to vote Labour. Shocking. 

First sentence: You say I lost the debate because I was wrong to suggest Jews can be considered as a race

Fourth sentence: You say that anti-semitism is racism

BTW - it's 7%, I know how much one and two percent means to you Brexiters. You also fail to point out that in the same survey 42% said they would vote for Labour if they had a different leader. Hardly the actions associated towards a party 'full of anti-semites'.

To quote Paul Kelemen, in early 2018 "the largest survey on attitudes in Britain to Jews and Israel was published by the Institute of Jewish Policy Research (IJPR).  It concluded that a ‘relatively small group of the general population can justifiably be described as antisemitic’ and that ‘the very left-wing are, on the whole, no more antisemitic than the general population, but neither are they less antisemitic’. A still more recent YouGov survey shows that since Jeremy Corbyn has been the Labour party leader, antisemitism has declined among Labour voters." He goes on to point out, very coherently that the positioning of this is largely an attempt to discredit Labour's long standing desire to support the two state solution.

He's bang on. I am not anti-semitic but I do support the rights of Palestine to have their own homeland or, at the least, basic human rights. Being pro-Palestine is not to be anti-semitic.

[Norman]

19 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

First sentence: You say I lost the debate because I was wrong to suggest Jews can be considered as a race

Fourth sentence: You say that anti-semitism is racism

BTW - it's 7%, I know how much one and two percent means to you Brexiters. You also fail to point out that in the same survey 42% said they would vote for Labour if they had a different leader. Hardly the actions associated towards a party 'full of anti-semites'.

To quote Paul Kelemen, in early 2018 "the largest survey on attitudes in Britain to Jews and Israel was published by the Institute of Jewish Policy Research (IJPR).  It concluded that a ‘relatively small group of the general population can justifiably be described as antisemitic’ and that ‘the very left-wing are, on the whole, no more antisemitic than the general population, but neither are they less antisemitic’. A still more recent YouGov survey shows that since Jeremy Corbyn has been the Labour party leader, antisemitism has declined among Labour voters." He goes on to point out, very coherently that the positioning of this is largely an attempt to discredit Labour's long standing desire to support the two state solution.

He's bang on. I am not anti-semitic but I do support the rights of Palestine to have their own homeland or, at the least, basic human rights. Being pro-Palestine is not to be anti-semitic.

Yeah, cos you don't ducking read, do you? 

You lost the debate on the poster, then brought up Hitler. Just read. It saves me having to type another post out. 

What a waste of time. I'd put you on block, not because of your views or your points.

But the fact you don't ducking read what is written. 

[Stive Pesley]

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

 as far as I'm aware the Tory pledge is to reduce overall immigration, reduce unskilled migrants and introduce a points based system - seems like a better idea than just allowing thr first 300k people into the country then shutting the door. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50412772

From the article you link to a quote about Boris Johnson

Quote

The prime minister is known to favour a policy that works for the needs of the economy, even if that means migration numbers remain broadly where they are

So if net migration figures remain broadly where they are - how does that help the burden on public services?

I also assume that you're aware that we already have a similar points-based system to Australia for all non-EU citiziens who want to move to the UK for work?

 

[maxjam]

5 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

From the article you link to a quote about Boris Johnson

So if net migration figures remain broadly where they are - how does that help the burden on public services?

Well if we're picking out random quotes how about the following from BJ;

The prime minister said: "I certainly think that when it comes to people who don't have a job to go to and are coming in in an uncontrolled way, we certainly need to be reducing that."

But he he added that he was "in favour of people of talent coming to this country".

Mr Johnson claimed in the past 20 years, the UK had seen "a lot of people coming without a job to go to", who were "putting pressure on public services" and did not "necessarily have the skills that the economy demands".

 

6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I also assume that you're aware that we already have a similar points-based system to Australia for all non-EU citiziens who want to move to the UK for work?

As I'm sure you are aware non-EU migration to the UK is higher than EU migration, but seeing as trying to stem the tide of mainly white Europeans has cast us Brexiteers as racist god help anyone that suggests limiting African/Asian/etc migration.  We have been able to prevent the majority of immigration for a long time but lack the will to do so.  Seeing as each side calls the other islamophobic or anti-semitic and the SJWs have taken over the media its political suicide to even think about doing anything about it.  If the Tories get in with a majority at the next election, hopefully they will have the determination to actually follow through. 

[maxjam]

@SchtivePesley  I think I've justfied my position and remained constant over a number of posts and pages, but other than a couple of quick sentences I don't really know yours.

Given that the graphs below show a marked increase in immigration since Tony Blair opened the borders and a marked increase in NHS funding during the same time period do you think that allowing 300k more people into the country every year is a good idea?  How much % of GDP should we be spending on the NHS especially given that education, policing etc are all crying out for more funds as well (not forgetting that we could be giving away free broadband for everyone too).  I'm assuming that you're not for limiting immigration else what have we been arguing about?