Norman Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: Is it... "Can anyone give me any actual benefits arising from Brexit?" Not seen that one for a couple of pages. Nah, I have a few: Why do all the posters on here telling me and @G STAR RAM and @Angry Ram etc that voting Brexit is ideological, but voting for this current Labour Party is not? Why is it not OK for us to vote for something that may cause an economic downturn, but you lot can vote Labour in without knowing the financial impacts. Why is it OK for people to vote Labour without knowing how it will all be financed? Why do people think Labour could negotiate a better deal to put to the people? And now @BaaLocks is getting confused between elections and referendums and how differently people vote. Some people vote Labour whatever. Which is odd because their view on Brexit doesn't match how they voted in the referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: No one ever questions whether we have enough money to take part in foreign wars that are none of our business, or enough money to bail out the banks, or enough money to pay the DUP to prop up the government Really? You seriously need to step out of your bubble. I really cant be arsed, mainly because I know what you have said is so massively factually incorrect, but I'm sure if I went back through this thread I could find lots of instances of posters questioning these things. For saying you are so against Boris Johnson making factually incorrect statements you seem to make quite a lot yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The debate on the NHS is interesting isn't it? Can you imagine if it didn't exist and Labour were suggesting that we introduced a 'free at the point of use' health care system? It would be unaffordable this and magic money tree that. It disappoints me how cowardly so many people are when it comes to dreaming big and wanting more for your country. . But suggest we spend some money on things that we will feel the benefit of and suddenly we're worried that it might "wreck the economy". Like that ever bothers us at any other time? We could not afford to start the NHS from scratch now, and you know it. There is 500+ pages over 2 threads of you telling people to worry about the financial implications of Brexit. But now it's Labour, it is fine. It's the hypocrisy that gets to me. And where would you put broadband in your list of priorities for this country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSD Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I think people focus too much on the Tories trying to "sell" the NHS. There's 2 bigger problems that need addressing by the next government. One is the clear lack of investment, the other is the horrendous pay gap between nurses and the management at NHS trusts. How is it fair that a nurse can not have a consistence pay increase yet the upper management are gaining at least 10-15% pay rises annually? If this was a big private sector business, every employee would go on strike because it is unethical. These big boys and girls on massive salaries have done nothing to approve the moral of staff, sticked two fingers up at them by patting themselves on the back with big bonuses and increased salaries, when the government have made cut backs to budgets for years. It's disgusting. The next government needs to get a grip of the issue and start paying every employee of the NHS fairly. That means bumping up nurses' salaries and cutting these bonuses and heavy pay increases to management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I really cant be arsed New contender for post of the season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: New contender for post of the season We may have some more contenders if you can think up any answers to the questions you are being asked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: All excellent links I'm sure but, without reading them, I can be pretty sure none of them prove that "Many, probably tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people, support brexit for racist reasons" So I will ask again, what has Brexit got to do with racism? Arent we the same race as most Europeans? Were us Leave voters racist against our own race? A race is defined as a group of people that share physical and social qualities, and let's not forget I am lying when I say I can easily identify Eastern Europeans. What some people call a spike in racism, I choose to look at as a redefining racism. I'm pretty sure 10 years ago, calling for controlled immigration wasnt classed as racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 minute ago, GboroRam said: Lovely pictures. Now just waiting to hear what Brexit has to do with racism? Re picture 1, I am the same race as Polish people, so how would me voting Leave make me racist against Polish people. Re picture 2, that is Farage stood in front of an actual picture of Syrian refugees I think. The headline is 'Breaking Point' ie no more room for refugees. What has that got to do with racism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 56 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The debate on the NHS is interesting isn't it? Can you imagine if it didn't exist and Labour were suggesting that we introduced a 'free at the point of use' health care system? It would be unaffordable this and magic money tree that. It disappoints me how cowardly so many people are when it comes to dreaming big and wanting more for your country. No one ever questions whether we have enough money to take part in foreign wars that are none of our business, or enough money to bail out the banks, or enough money to pay the DUP to prop up the government - because all of these things have no tangible effect on us. We don't feel it. But suggest we spend some money on things that we will feel the benefit of and suddenly we're worried that it might "wreck the economy". Like that ever bothers us at any other time? As if modern monetary theory isn't even a thing? I just heard Angela Leadsom on the BBC when challenged by Nick Robinson as to how the Tories would pay for something - she said "You're assuming that money comes from somewhere". She's right. We're a sovereign state with a central bank. We print our own money as required I'd like to think that the idea of making level 1 NHS dentistry costs free would be universally popular. Clearly saves money in the long run as it's the kind of preventative maintenance that makes sense -but then I'm sure some lib-hating curmudgeon will come along to tell me how it's unaffordable and if poor people can't afford to have an annual check up then they don't deserve teeth (or something) So much wrong with this post, I can see why some people are pulling their hair out even bothering to read this forum anymore. To briefly touch on a few things; Haven't we discussed taking pride in your country before? Isn't dreaming big and wanting more for your country virtually the same thing said a different way? 1m people marched over the Iraq war. Millions of people acroos Europe and US have protested against the bank bailouts and austerity. Labour answer to everything... print more money. Everyone wants a functional NHS, what the stats I posted a few days ago suggest is that since Tony Blair's open borders policy the NHS has been under increasing pressure and is buckling under the strain massively increased use - throwing more money at it (we now spend approx 7.5% of GDP on the NHS as oppsoed to 3.5% pre Blair) won't solve the problem, and this lib-hating curmudgeon thinks that it is unaffordable when 300k new people arrive in the country every year wanting healthcare, education, housing, policing, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 48 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The debate on the NHS is interesting isn't it? Can you imagine if it didn't exist and Labour were suggesting that we introduced a 'free at the point of use' health care system? It would be unaffordable this and magic money tree that. It disappoints me how cowardly so many people are when it comes to dreaming big and wanting more for your country. No one ever questions whether we have enough money to take part in foreign wars that are none of our business, or enough money to bail out the banks, or enough money to pay the DUP to prop up the government - because all of these things have no tangible effect on us. We don't feel it. But suggest we spend some money on things that we will feel the benefit of and suddenly we're worried that it might "wreck the economy". Like that ever bothers us at any other time? As if modern monetary theory isn't even a thing? I just heard Angela Leadsom on the BBC when challenged by Nick Robinson as to how the Tories would pay for something - she said "You're assuming that money comes from somewhere". She's right. We're a sovereign state with a central bank. We print our own money as required I'd like to think that the idea of making level 1 NHS dentistry costs free would be universally popular. Clearly saves money in the long run as it's the kind of preventative maintenance that makes sense -but then I'm sure some lib-hating curmudgeon will come along to tell me how it's unaffordable and if poor people can't afford to have an annual check up then they don't deserve teeth (or something) How is is cowardly to think it would be a bad thing (based on real examples of other countries) to just print money and go on a massive spending spree, as Labour want to do? BTW I agree on the free dentist (and prescriptions) thing. As long as there are no prescriptions for anything that can be cheaply bought over the counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Norman said: And now @BaaLocks is getting confused between elections and referendums and how differently people vote. Some people vote Labour whatever. Which is odd because their view on Brexit doesn't match how they voted in the referendum. Put it back in it's box hombre - you have no clue how I vote, anywhere any time. Not confused at all, I am saying that there comes a point where you can no longer hark back to the referendum as a sacred statement of the people that must be upheld at all costs, especially one in which the outcome was (like it or not) vague and only just (2% lest we forget - every time this '17.4m people can't be wrong gets rolled out) carried. Oh, and advisory in structure. I'm not saying it means the vote is off, I'm just saying there comes a point where it is no longer the last and final statement on the topic. I think two elections after it was carried out is a good time to be in that place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 38 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Re picture 2, that is Farage stood in front of an actual picture of Syrian refugees I think. The headline is 'Breaking Point' ie no more room for refugees. What has that got to do with racism? Errr, maybe the fact that the people in the picture are not even EU citizens while the poster claims it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 52 minutes ago, maxjam said: So much wrong with this post, I can see why some people are pulling their hair out even bothering to read this forum anymore. I know - especially when the reactionaries come on and shoot down every progressive argument and have no other answers beyond limiting immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 17 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Errr, maybe the fact that the people in the picture are not even EU citizens while the poster claims it is. Can you point me to where on the poster it claims they are EU citizens please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: I know - especially when the reactionaries come on and shoot down every progressive argument and have no other answers beyond limiting immigration. At least that is one answer...not seen you answer any of the questions posed to you this morning.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Put it back in it's box hombre - you have no clue how I vote, anywhere any time. Not confused at all, I am saying that there comes a point where you can no longer hark back to the referendum as a sacred statement of the people that must be upheld at all costs, especially one in which the outcome was (like it or not) vague and only just (2% lest we forget - every time this '17.4m people can't be wrong gets rolled out) carried. Oh, and advisory in structure. I'm not saying it means the vote is off, I'm just saying there comes a point where it is no longer the last and final statement on the topic. I think two elections after it was carried out is a good time to be in that place. Where did I say I knew how you voted. People are going to vote Labour because their Dad told them to 50 years a go. They also voted Brexit. An election is not a real gauge of a referendum. They are two separate things. 2 elections in a few years due to a shambles of a parliament isn't a very good gauge, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Can you point me to where on the poster it claims they are EU citizens please? OMG, it doesn't actually does it - I feel so stupid for not realising that when it says we need to break free of the EU I should have realised that putting a picture of a load of non-EU refugees would be in no way linked to the picture behind. It's so obvious when you explain it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: At least that is one answer...not seen you answer any of the questions posed to you this morning.... Didn't notice any questions. You know that telling me I'm wrong is not the same as a question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Norman said: An election is not a real gauge of a referendum. They are two separate things. You actually believe that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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