Transfer rumours

[brady1993]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Some of those players were integrated into the squad over time. Others were only drafted into the first team after injuries to first team squad members.

Bird made his debut under Rowett way back in 2017. It took him almost 3 years to become a regular starter.

Whittaker was being slowly introduced to men's football under Cocu (before being bombed out by Rooney).

Bogle would have been loaned out if we had any takers. We didn't, and when our senior RBs were injured, he was given a chance by Lampard.

Likewise, due to an injury crisis, Knight was called up to the Playoff squad by Lampard. Due to a lack of midfielders at the club, he then started pre-season in the first team a d dud enough to earn a spot on the bench for the first few games of the season.

Cashin was thrown in because we had no one else. His performances meant he stayed in the team. Initially used in a midfieod role for 4 games (to kick anything that moved to see games out), he only started a game when we only had 1 other CB in the squad.

 

Warne will switch to a 2 man midfield if injuries/suspensions impact us to such a degree and we fail to sign someone.

I do really wonder what would have happened had Cocu came in the season before instead of Lampard and we'd decided to really reign in the spending at that point. It feels like due to instability, bad overall running of the club and managers disinterested in the academy as a project we really threw away a golden opportunity with quite probably the most talented generation of academy players we've seen at the club (at least in my memory). Cocu was realistically the only manager who truly bought into the academy and I suspect had he came in a season earlier (avoiding a lot of the issues that hamstrung him going into his second season) we'd have seen a lot more breakthrough faster and either become decent players for us or we'd be able to sell them for more substantial.

 

[IlsonDerby]

9 hours ago, Papahet said:

People said the exact same about Hughes, Hendrick, Knight, Bird and Cashin, even Thompson...

You don't know how good they are until they get first team football, play with better players etc and for whatever reason PW seems reluctant to give chance to these young players.

Tony Weston another...

Clough only brought Hughes (arguably the most successful player from our academy since Huddlestone) on for his debut on the last match of the season and played him out on the wing despite him being a centre mid. He waited until our safety was guaranteed before risking it. 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Clough only brought Hughes (arguably the most successful player from our academy since Huddlestone) on for his debut on the last match of the season and played him out on the wing despite him being a centre mid. He waited until our safety was guaranteed before risking it. 

That was his full (and home) debut. He actually made his debut in November, a lastbminute sub at LM when 2-2. We lost 3-2. He also played in the penultimate game of the season for 20 minutes.

It's part of what Clough did. He identified who he wanted to promote to his first team by the end of the previous season and gave them a few games to adjust to the environment. Hendrick got 4 sub apps at the end of 10/11 before playing in 43 games the following season. They were then allowed to play through bad performances - something a few of our very promising youngsters never got (Whittaker and Sibley)

[OoooMarkWright]

23 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Clough only brought Hughes (arguably the most successful player from our academy since Huddlestone) on for his debut on the last match of the season and played him out on the wing despite him being a centre mid. He waited until our safety was guaranteed before risking it. 

He was only 16 or possibly 17 at the time. I believe he started that game vs P’Boro if memory serves. He then featured a lot more the season after. 

[maydrakin]

The other aspect with the academy players that are being lauded is that they were the cream of all u23s that won the league, with a conveyor belt behind them.

The current set were relegated, due to the fact that the team was plundered during admin.

We lost many more than has been discussed so far that were on that conveyor belt - e.g. Kaide Gordon, Kellyman and the three that went to Man Utd, who would be the ones we were clamouring to be starting.

Unfortunately, the resources that could match a number of solid division 2 players, like Knight, Bird, etc. aren’t in the age range that are ready to step up.

We’ve been left with those that likely won’t make it, so it will be years before we start getting those that are likely to play for us - there’s a few gems who are coming through, but I fear they would be ineffective at first team level right now.

[abertawe_ram]

These fecking click bait websites are doing my nut in. Screenshot of a headline suggested by my phone this morning, oh wow I thought that all happened quickly overnight. Did it b*******. Just some stupid p**** writing a nonsense "article" about what they hope might happen and framing it to look like bloody news 🤬

 

 

 

 

[MadAmster]

34 minutes ago, maydrakin said:

The other aspect with the academy players that are being lauded is that they were the cream of all u23s that won the league, with a conveyor belt behind them.

 

It was the U18s that were Champions of England in 2019.

[Jram]

9 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I agree there, but it’s a bit of an anomaly. Circumstance forced the situation, similar to when Frank jumped ship to transfer embargoed Chelsea and had to use the likes of Mount, Tomori and Abraham through circumstance. Both situations proved that it can help develop and lead to some real young talents, but sadly both situations proved to be exceptions to the norm with the finances and demands of “normal” football demands/expectations seemingly dictating what goes on. I’d much prefer some sort of mass revision of the football setup to encourage more homegrown players being included in sides throughout the football pyramid.

Sidenote - what a basket case Chelsea are. 

I agree but I’m asking why is it an anomaly when clearly Derby had a certain amount of success when half their squad were academy players each week. We’d have finished 15th the relegation year and we regularly had 8-10 academy lads in the match day squad. 
 

We’re in a unique position because we have a Cat 1 academy while we’re expected to compete in the lower half of the championship. Given the way the academy players performed 3-4 seasons ago, I don’t see how we can’t give more minutes to the more exceptional among them. 

[Srg]

2 minutes ago, Jram said:

I agree but I’m asking why is it an anomaly when clearly Derby had a certain amount of success when half their squad were academy players each week. We’d have finished 15th the relegation year and we regularly had 8-10 academy lads in the match day squad. 
 

We’re in a unique position because we have a Cat 1 academy while we’re expected to compete in the lower half of the championship. Given the way the academy players performed 3-4 seasons ago, I don’t see how we can’t give more minutes to the more exceptional among them. 

Because anyone who was anyone left during admin, it's only been 2 years since. We're building, we're getting there, but it's not the same academy it was yet.

[Jram]

9 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Some of those players were integrated into the squad over time. Others were only drafted into the first team after injuries to first team squad members.

Bird made his debut under Rowett way back in 2017. It took him almost 3 years to become a regular starter.

Whittaker was being slowly introduced to men's football under Cocu (before being bombed out by Rooney).

Bogle would have been loaned out if we had any takers. We didn't, and when our senior RBs were injured, he was given a chance by Lampard.

Likewise, due to an injury crisis, Knight was called up to the Playoff squad by Lampard. Due to a lack of midfielders at the club, he then started pre-season in the first team a d dud enough to earn a spot on the bench for the first few games of the season.

Cashin was thrown in because we had no one else. His performances meant he stayed in the team. Initially used in a midfieod role for 4 games (to kick anything that moved to see games out), he only started a game when we only had 1 other CB in the squad.

 

Warne will switch to a 2 man midfield if injuries/suspensions impact us to such a degree and we fail to sign someone.

I totally agree and that’s fine. I’m not advocating a midfield three of Robinson, McAndrew and Allen in the next game. Bring them through sensibly but actually bring them through.

I like Warne, I think I’ve made that quite clear on here, but I think it’s very disappointing that he seems so utterly against giving youngsters a chance. Maybe he will once the academy matures after being ravaged during admin and im being unfair but I doubt it. Darren Robinson was one of the most highly thought of players in the academy a couple of years ago and hasn’t really had a look in

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Srg said:

Because anyone who was anyone left during admin, it's only been 2 years since. We're building, we're getting there, but it's not the same academy it was yet.

It's not the same ethos either. How many came or were interested in coming because they saw the chances being given to young players (by default or otherwise)?

[Papahet]

The youth players will always be overlooked until Warne is gone, that's pretty much a certainty.

Genuinely baffled what planning goes into these windows: loaning out these "young, athletic" players he's been harping on about since his tenure began and then having nobody to come in is absolutely ridiculous. Saying we need pace at CB, bet he'll stick a 35 year old Craig Forsyth there now Cashin is out, or one of the slowest defenders I've ever seen in a Derby shirt Sonny Bradley.

Warne talks absolute s**** at times.

As much as I despise Forest, they've done it the right way in throwing players into the mix and then selling them for hefty amounts, we've never done this even with Hughes, we got less than we originally expected from Watford - Still pains me today that he's gone for peanuts in comparison to some players you see moving elsewhere.

I'd rather see us take a gamble on Brown or another youngster in our ranks, than pay however much to Wednesday for Michael friggin Smith loan on however many thousands a week.

The Derby way n' all that snizzle. 

Seems like another boring end to the window either way 

Edited August 23 by Papahet

[Allen]

10 hours ago, Papahet said:

People said the exact same about Hughes, Hendrick, Knight, Bird and Cashin, even Thompson...

You don't know how good they are until they get first team football, play with better players etc and for whatever reason PW seems reluctant to give chance to these young players.

Tony Weston another...

PW and his coaching staff are very experienced football people who I’m sure would have a very good idea of whether or not a young player is good enough to play regular first team football. David Ozoh is a prime example. I suspect they feel Dajaune Brown is close but not quite there yet. Hence the start against Chesterfield and hopefully another against Barrow. 

As a matter of interest, other than Brown, who are the players you feel are knocking on the door and Warne should be looking at?

[Ghost of Clough]

25 minutes ago, maydrakin said:

The other aspect with the academy players that are being lauded is that they were the cream of all u23s that won the league, with a conveyor belt behind them.

The current set were relegated, due to the fact that the team was plundered during admin.

We lost many more than has been discussed so far that were on that conveyor belt - e.g. Kaide Gordon, Kellyman and the three that went to Man Utd, who would be the ones we were clamouring to be starting.

Unfortunately, the resources that could match a number of solid division 2 players, like Knight, Bird, etc. aren’t in the age range that are ready to step up.

We’ve been left with those that likely won’t make it, so it will be years before we start getting those that are likely to play for us - there’s a few gems who are coming through, but I fear they would be ineffective at first team level right now.

We won the U18s in 18/19. The U21s were 7th in that season, 4th the season after, then 6th the season before admin.

Our U21s peaking in 19/20 coincided with the U18 title winners stepping up to the U21s. There was then a drop off as soon as the top 5 of those permanently stepped up to the first team.

The drop off had also coincided with a couple of years of schoalrs not progressing as hoped. In the 2019 induction, the best prospects are current Bardell (still in our U21s) and Cybulski (National League North). In 2020, there's only Williams (League 1). I believe we were destined for relegation even without administration, it just would have happened a season later, as Cashin, Festy, ABrown, Williams, JBrown, LThompson, Whittaker and Stretton would have had more game time at that level before stepping up the following year.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

8 minutes ago, Papahet said:

The youth players will always be overlooked until Warne is gone, that's pretty much a certainty.

Genuinely baffled what planning goes into these windows: loaning out these "young, athletic" players he's been harping on about since his tenure began and then having nobody to come in is absolutely ridiculous. Saying we need pace at CB, bet he'll stick a 35 year old Craig Forsyth there now Cashin is out, or one of the slowest defenders I've ever seen in a Derby shirt Sonny Bradley.

Warne talks absolute s**** at times.

As much as I despise Forest, they've done it the right way in throwing players into the mix and then selling them for hefty amounts, we've never done this even with Hughes, we got less than we originally expected from Watford .

The Derby way n' all that snizzle 

Cruz Allen will be a test of this.  If he is truly as highly rated as is being said, with clubs like Man U and Chelsea sniffing around and at 17, Cloughie would have had him in this team by the end of this coming season, assuming we are looking safe by then of course.

[tomsdubs]

If we sign Michael Smith then what is the point? Wednesday hand me downs really? He missed an absolute sitter when he came off the bench on weekend as well, row Z job. Rather Brown get game time personally. Given our financial outlook you'd think surely our academy is going to be absolutely crucial to us achieving anything?

[Ghost of Clough]

23 minutes ago, Jram said:

I totally agree and that’s fine. I’m not advocating a midfield three of Robinson, McAndrew and Allen in the next game. Bring them through sensibly but actually bring them through.

I like Warne, I think I’ve made that quite clear on here, but I think it’s very disappointing that he seems so utterly against giving youngsters a chance. Maybe he will once the academy matures after being ravaged during admin and im being unfair but I doubt it. Darren Robinson was one of the most highly thought of players in the academy a couple of years ago and hasn’t really had a look in

Well, following my general 2 years in each of the U18s and U21s rule, we shouldn't see DRobinson in the first team picture until next season, with Cox, KRobinson, Hawkins, Davidson and Wheeldon not until the season after.

You get the odd player like Hendrick, Hughes and Bogle who will progress much faster, and should be involved much sooner. DBrown for example should have had more game time with us last season, which would have prepared him better for this season. I hope DRobinson has an impressive half season at Hartlepool and earns a cameo appearance before going on loan to a top L2 or a L1 side. He'll then go into next pre-season fighting for a first team spot.

[Srg]

26 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

It's not the same ethos either. How many came or were interested in coming because they saw the chances being given to young players (by default or otherwise)?

Struggle to completely agree with that.

If you're looking at players that came in, there was a necessity to play some of them and it was unexpected - like Ebiowei. That was all very short term though, not something that caused players year in advance to join our academy expecting first team football. But if you're looking for a "tradition", it wasn't really there throughout the years previous with Lampard, Rowett etc before the financial troubles hit. There was the odd one, of course, but nothing that is a sea change to anything right now.

Facts are just that there's no one quite ready just yet, other than maybe Brown who is slowly getting chances. Do I wish he had more in cup games before his loan last year? Yes, but I was pleasantly surprised to see him start this year. If you look 2 years down the line from now when the academy is back up and running properly and there's still very few chances, then it's an argument that becomes warranted.

[Animal is a Ram]

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gary-rowett-derby-county-column-9503348

Yes, I'm sure some will call him the 🐍 - but I think this was an interesting read. A lot of points resonating with what posters have said here.

[Reggie Greenwood]

42 minutes ago, Papahet said:

The youth players will always be overlooked until Warne is gone, that's pretty much a certainty.

Genuinely baffled what planning goes into these windows: loaning out these "young, athletic" players he's been harping on about since his tenure began and then having nobody to come in is absolutely ridiculous. Saying we need pace at CB, bet he'll stick a 35 year old Craig Forsyth there now Cashin is out, or one of the slowest defenders I've ever seen in a Derby shirt Sonny Bradley.

Warne talks absolute s**** at times.

As much as I despise Forest, they've done it the right way in throwing players into the mix and then selling them for hefty amounts, we've never done this even with Hughes, we got less than we originally expected from Watford - Still pains me today that he's gone for peanuts in comparison to some players you see moving elsewhere.

I'd rather see us take a gamble on Brown or another youngster in our ranks, than pay however much to Wednesday for Michael friggin Smith loan on however many thousands a week.

The Derby way n' all that snizzle. 

Seems like another boring end to the window either way 

No the youth  won’t be ignored because DC is passionate about the academy , hence keeping it in Cat 1 category. Do you honestly think when he employed PW they didn’t have the conversation about use of the academy and how it will be used ? If he thought for a second that PW was anti youth he would not of employed him. 
The younger players will be introduced when they are ready. Brown is very close , Robinson too hence the loan. They are hoping that his loan will be as successful is Brown’s at Gateshead and prepare  Robinson for the step up. 
The reason we got less for Hughes was timing and 2 ACL’s. 
You are very anti Warne which is your right but you are letting that blinker your thinking . The club , DC , Warne and the coaching staff have long term plan which very much includes using academy players when ready. Re the transfer window , why not let it play out before having a hissy. I’m happy so far 2/3 extra ones could make it a very decent window .

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23 by Reggie Greenwood
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