Warne Out Out

[DavesaRam]

9 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

I feel like some of the expectations on here are totally unrealistic. We're in the weakest playing position in our club's history, coming out of the worst financial period. How are people honestly commenting with straight faces they want full academy inclusion, pretty football, AND promotion form? Surely something has to give?

Rosenior gave us pretty football and youth inclusion, and prior to his departure there were still negative murmurings; so I don't buy the idea that if we incorporated the other elements, it makes on-field success less important somehow and people wouldn't whinge as much.

People going mental over a throwaway comment about youth seemingly forgetting he tried to make both Thompson and Rooney first team regulars before they got injured, promoted and integrated Brown into the first team, hailed Bird as our best player etc. There's stuff to be critical of but some posters do seem hell-bent on just making it seem like an agenda...

 

No he didn't try to make them first team regulars, he was forced to play them because of injuries. Without the misfortune for the other players, Thompson and Rooney wouldn't have had a sniff of a game. It was the same last season when Warne oversaw a long unbeaten run, but the reality is that he was forced to change the formation, because of injuries. He had been trying to play 3 at the back, and it was proving disastrous, but was forced to go 4 or 5 at the back, and the good run resulted from that exact circumstance. But as soon as he got the chance he leapt back to 3 at the back, curiously at the same time that the good run came to an end. Funny, that!

It is no surprise that there are loads of questions being asked of Warne, because there are loads of questions that need to be asked.

[Gerry Daly]

Yorkshire Ram said 'We're in the weakest playing position in our club's history, coming out of the worst financial period' 

This is not true. In my opinion we were weaker playing wise in the early 1980's and the period before Maxwell got involved was just as bad financially. 

Warne inherited much better players last season than the squad Arthur Cox inherited plus a lot of very good youth players. Arthur took one season to start to reshape things, but you could see the progress being made. Then the next season it was constant, rapid progress all the way to 5th in the old first division. We made no progress last season and none so far this season either. Warne isn't good enough for Derby County       

Edited November 22, 2023 by Gerry Daly

[Tamworthram]

8 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

Yorkshire Ram said 'We're in the weakest playing position in our club's history, coming out of the worst financial period' 

This is not true. In my opinion we were weaker playing wise in the early 1980's and the period before Maxwell got involved was just as bad financially. 

Warne inherited much better players last season than the squad Arthur Cox inherited plus a lot of very good youth players. Arthur took one season to start to reshape things, but you could see the progress being made. Then the next season it was constant, rapid progress all the way to 5th in the old first division. We made no progress last season and none so far this season either. Warne isn't good enough for Derby County       

If you can find and attract another Arthur Cox then happy days. In the meantime, it doesn’t matter how many times anyone says Warne isn’t good enough for Derby County we’re stuck with him until his contract expires, DC decides to show him the door or, he makes such a success of managing the club over the next year or so that someone poaches him (I’m joking of course before anyone accuses me of being deluded or drinking too early in the morning).

[Ram-Alf]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

If you can find and attract another Arthur Cox then happy days. In the meantime, it doesn’t matter how many times anyone says Warne isn’t good enough for Derby County we’re stuck with him until his contract expires, DC decides to show him the door or, he makes such a success of managing the club over the next year or so that someone poaches him (I’m joking of course before anyone accuses me of being deluded or drinking too early in the morning).

Boiling people alive isn't allowed anymore...altho 😉

[YorkshireRam]

12 hours ago, Srg said:

Not really. When the team lacks in certain areas - pace, athleticism, youth, strikers - and you aren’t willing to use time in competitive games when the result is safe to see what you may or may not have in-house, it’s a perfectly valid criticism. 

It’s not like we are sitting on a plethora of options at senior level. We have glaring issues which finding solutions for seem logical to try and do. 

Warne masterminded a resounding 3-0 win over promotion rivals, I can't say I'm all that bothered about whether Weston got a cameo appearance at the end. Certainly not enough to criticise, rather than praise, on the balance of the result. 

Weston hasn't played against a men's side yet. His performance v Wolves U21s warranted more inclusion into the first team, but I do feel it's massively pedantic to criticise Warne for not using him yet. The argument this is symptomatic of Warne's general approach to youth progression may be valid, but I don't understand why anyone would have the expectation he was going to be youth-focused and things would be different. It seems to be he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly, not progressively by extensively using youth, so why try beat him with a stick by which his success is likely not measured?

[Gerry Daly]

10 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

If you can find and attract another Arthur Cox then happy days. In the meantime, it doesn’t matter how many times anyone says Warne isn’t good enough for Derby County we’re stuck with him until his contract expires, DC decides to show him the door or, he makes such a success of managing the club over the next year or so that someone poaches him (I’m joking of course before anyone accuses me of being deluded or drinking too early in the morning).

Yeah OK we will see 

[Archied]

42 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Boiling people alive isn't allowed anymore...altho 😉

Well you’ve just thwarted the plans of some forum posters🤷🏻‍♂️

[Srg]

56 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Warne masterminded a resounding 3-0 win over promotion rivals, I can't say I'm all that bothered about whether Weston got a cameo appearance at the end. Certainly not enough to criticise, rather than praise, on the balance of the result. 

Weston hasn't played against a men's side yet. His performance v Wolves U21s warranted more inclusion into the first team, but I do feel it's massively pedantic to criticise Warne for not using him yet. The argument this is symptomatic of Warne's general approach to youth progression may be valid, but I don't understand why anyone would have the expectation he was going to be youth-focused and things would be different. It seems to be he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly, not progressively by extensively using youth, so why try beat him with a stick by which his success is likely not measured?

Because when we are in another game where we desperately need a different option with different attributes and we have wasted the chance to see if we have that attribute in prior games, or we get to January and we sign players we potentially don't need or aren't better than we have, we won't be thinking "well, that 3-0 against Barnsley was great, I'm glad we didn't sub on an academy player for 10 mins, what a waste of time that would've been".

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Gerry Daly said:

Yeah OK we will see 

What other scenarios can you think of then?

[Ghost of Clough]

10 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Warne masterminded a resounding 3-0 win over promotion rivals, I can't say I'm all that bothered about whether Weston got a cameo appearance at the end. Certainly not enough to criticise, rather than praise, on the balance of the result. 

Weston hasn't played against a men's side yet. His performance v Wolves U21s warranted more inclusion into the first team, but I do feel it's massively pedantic to criticise Warne for not using him yet. The argument this is symptomatic of Warne's general approach to youth progression may be valid, but I don't understand why anyone would have the expectation he was going to be youth-focused and things would be different. It seems to be he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly, not progressively by extensively using youth, so why try beat him with a stick by which his success is likely not measured?

Weston already has experience of men's football at 5 different clubs now
19/20 - Blackpool in the FA Cup
21/22 - Rangers B against lower league first teams in a Cup competition.
21/22 - Rangers in the SPL
22/23 - 18 games across different competitions for Partick Thistle (2nd division)
22/23 - 13 games for Cove Rangers in the Scottish Championship (2nd division)

[BaianoPOTY98]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

Warne masterminded a resounding 3-0 win over promotion rivals, I can't say I'm all that bothered about whether Weston got a cameo appearance at the end. Certainly not enough to criticise, rather than praise, on the balance of the result. 

Weston hasn't played against a men's side yet. His performance v Wolves U21s warranted more inclusion into the first team, but I do feel it's massively pedantic to criticise Warne for not using him yet. The argument this is symptomatic of Warne's general approach to youth progression may be valid, but I don't understand why anyone would have the expectation he was going to be youth-focused and things would be different. It seems to be he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly, not progressively by extensively using youth, so why try beat him with a stick by which his success is likely not measured?

What about the thought that other academy players released by top premier league clubs (that we have managed to attract in the past to good fortune) won’t want to come to Derby because under Warne they’ve got literally no prospects of getting any first team game time? Which in turn is also stunting the growth of the Academy which Clowes is wanting to rebuild?

[duncanjwitham]

48 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Warne masterminded a resounding 3-0 win over promotion rivals, I can't say I'm all that bothered about whether Weston got a cameo appearance at the end. Certainly not enough to criticise, rather than praise, on the balance of the result. 

Weston hasn't played against a men's side yet. His performance v Wolves U21s warranted more inclusion into the first team, but I do feel it's massively pedantic to criticise Warne for not using him yet. The argument this is symptomatic of Warne's general approach to youth progression may be valid, but I don't understand why anyone would have the expectation he was going to be youth-focused and things would be different. It seems to be he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly, not progressively by extensively using youth, so why try beat him with a stick by which his success is likely not measured?

Not picking you out particularly with this, it's more of a general comment, but the bold bits get to the root of why I'm so opposed to Warne.

The way I see it, we have everything off-field ready for the Premier League - the fanbase size, the stadium, the training ground etc are all good enough.  Obviously we have no divine right to be in any league, but in theory there's no reason why we shouldn't be in the same group of clubs as the likes of Leicester/Burnley/Fulham/Brighton/Norwich etc who have spent at least as much time in the Prem as they have out of it in recent seasons.  I'm not saying we can win it like Leicester or be top 6 like Brighton or anything, but we absolutely have the potential to get there and stay there, but the onus is on us as a club to make it happen.

Obviously, one way that happens is that a new owner comes along and throws a lot of money at the club.  But there's no guarantee this happens, there's no guarantee it works if it does, and we all know what the potential fallout can be if it goes wrong.  It's certainly not an option we should be relying on.  Another way is just genuine luck, alignment of stars type stuff - you get the right manager at the right time, a bunch of signings all work out and you hit the jackpot.  We came close with Burley+Rasiak+Idiakez... and McClaren+Martin+Bryson... but ultimately fell short.  Again, that's not something you can rely on - you need a lot of things to all hit at once, and even then it might not work.  And it gets harder and harder as the championship gets dominated by clubs with parachute payments.

So IMO we should be doing the one thing that we have some degree of control over, and that's doing our level best to get the most we can out of the academy.  But that means fully committing to it.  When academy players are hitting 17/18/19/20 (it will be different for each players), they need to start being introduced to senior football.  If they aren't they won't progress.  If we take the approach that we can't play youth players now, we need to get promoted first, then you're basically writing off the current generation of academy players.  They won't get the first team exposure they need and won't kick on. 

So if we do get promoted what happens?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get stabilised in this league first.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to kick on for the top 6 now.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get promoted to the prem first.  If your attitude is "we can't afford to play them now", then you won't be able to play them when they're good enough later, because they won't get good enough.

You can't just have an academy sat on the sidelines and hope it produces players now and then.  If you want to be like Southampton and have a steady stream of them, you have to gear the whole club up to make it happen.  You play similar styles of football across all age groups, you gear your transfer policy to not block promising players, you commit to giving youngsters first team chances when they're ready and if they take it you let them run with it.  And from what I can see, we can't do any of that with Warne in charge.  So we're just stuck hoping a youngster pops up, fully formed, once in a blue moon.  And that's one of the big advantages we could have over similar sized clubs that we are just choosing to throw away.

I have no idea if Weston is good enough, I've never seen him play.  But by all accounts he did well when he came on, and scored a good goal.  If you give him say 20 minutes against Barnsley and he scores again, then okay, maybe we've got something here.  If he then starts against Crewe and scores, then we've got a potential first team striker for nothing.  And if he doesn't do any of that then fine, he goes back to the U21s and maybe gets another shot in a month or 2.  But right now, we've just got a guy that scored a goal once and then never played again, which is no use to anyone.

Sorry everyone for the long post, but I genuinely think appointing Warne was a catastrophic mistake for a lot of reasons.  The ridiculous short-termism of "he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly" sums it up - it's like there's no thought as to what happens when we do get promoted.  And when I see fans almost actively celebrating it ("I don't care about academy players, we won 3-0" type stuff) I just find it a bit sad really.  I want the club to be in the premier league, I want the club to play good football, and I want to see academy players getting into the first team and doing well, and I want the club to be actively trying to make all that stuff happen, not just flailing around doing stuff at random and hoping that one day it might work.

(and breathe...)

[YorkshireRam]

1 minute ago, Srg said:

Because when we are in another game where we desperately need a different option with different attributes and we have wasted the chance to see if we have that attribute in prior games, or we get to January and we sign players we potentially don't need or aren't better than we have, we won't be thinking "well, that 3-0 against Barnsley was great, I'm glad we didn't sub on an academy player for 10 mins, what a waste of time that would've been".

Training exists and this is where the manager will assess players most closely, not in games themselves. Pace for example, will be evident in training, Weston didn't need 10 minutes v Barnsley for us to know what he's like as a player... There's also plenty more games for us to give Weston his chance in the first team, I don't think not playing in this specific one is detrimental to his overall development.

Also, how often do players get promoted from the academy and instantly become first team mainstays? Hughes and Bogle are about the only ones I can remember for us (outside of administration). So again, I don't think not giving Weston 10 minutes in this game is going to make any January signings redundant, if anything if he looks really good, we've just got more depth and it takes the pressure off him to instantly and consistently perform?

As I say, I think we all love seeing homegrown talent, and we agree Weston looks exciting and we want to see more of him. I just don't think, given the circumstances, not subbing him on in the first 2 games since his debut reflects poorly on the manager.

[YorkshireRam]

32 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Not picking you out particularly with this, it's more of a general comment, but the bold bits get to the root of why I'm so opposed to Warne.

The way I see it, we have everything off-field ready for the Premier League - the fanbase size, the stadium, the training ground etc are all good enough.  Obviously we have no divine right to be in any league, but in theory there's no reason why we shouldn't be in the same group of clubs as the likes of Leicester/Burnley/Fulham/Brighton/Norwich etc who have spent at least as much time in the Prem as they have out of it in recent seasons.  I'm not saying we can win it like Leicester or be top 6 like Brighton or anything, but we absolutely have the potential to get there and stay there, but the onus is on us as a club to make it happen.

Obviously, one way that happens is that a new owner comes along and throws a lot of money at the club.  But there's no guarantee this happens, there's no guarantee it works if it does, and we all know what the potential fallout can be if it goes wrong.  It's certainly not an option we should be relying on.  Another way is just genuine luck, alignment of stars type stuff - you get the right manager at the right time, a bunch of signings all work out and you hit the jackpot.  We came close with Burley+Rasiak+Idiakez... and McClaren+Martin+Bryson... but ultimately fell short.  Again, that's not something you can rely on - you need a lot of things to all hit at once, and even then it might not work.  And it gets harder and harder as the championship gets dominated by clubs with parachute payments.

So IMO we should be doing the one thing that we have some degree of control over, and that's doing our level best to get the most we can out of the academy.  But that means fully committing to it.  When academy players are hitting 17/18/19/20 (it will be different for each players), they need to start being introduced to senior football.  If they aren't they won't progress.  If we take the approach that we can't play youth players now, we need to get promoted first, then you're basically writing off the current generation of academy players.  They won't get the first team exposure they need and won't kick on. 

So if we do get promoted what happens?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get stabilised in this league first.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to kick on for the top 6 now.  And then?  We can't afford to play academy players, we need to get promoted to the prem first.  If your attitude is "we can't afford to play them now", then you won't be able to play them when they're good enough later, because they won't get good enough.

You can't just have an academy sat on the sidelines and hope it produces players now and then.  If you want to be like Southampton and have a steady stream of them, you have to gear the whole club up to make it happen.  You play similar styles of football across all age groups, you gear your transfer policy to not block promising players, you commit to giving youngsters first team chances when they're ready and if they take it you let them run with it.  And from what I can see, we can't do any of that with Warne in charge.  So we're just stuck hoping a youngster pops up, fully formed, once in a blue moon.  And that's one of the big advantages we could have over similar sized clubs that we are just choosing to throw away.

I have no idea if Weston is good enough, I've never seen him play.  But by all accounts he did well when he came on, and scored a good goal.  If you give him say 20 minutes against Barnsley and he scores again, then okay, maybe we've got something here.  If he then starts against Crewe and scores, then we've got a potential first team striker for nothing.  And if he doesn't do any of that then fine, he goes back to the U21s and maybe gets another shot in a month or 2.  But right now, we've just got a guy that scored a goal once and then never played again, which is no use to anyone.

Sorry everyone for the long post, but I genuinely think appointing Warne was a catastrophic mistake for a lot of reasons.  The ridiculous short-termism of "he was brought in to achieve promotion quickly" sums it up - it's like there's no thought as to what happens when we do get promoted.  And when I see fans almost actively celebrating it ("I don't care about academy players, we won 3-0" type stuff) I just find it a bit sad really.  I want the club to be in the premier league, I want the club to play good football, and I want to see academy players getting into the first team and doing well, and I want the club to be actively trying to make all that stuff happen, not just flailing around doing stuff at random and hoping that one day it might work.

(and breathe...)

I don't disagree, and I like this idea of how to run a football club and integrate the academy with the first team. The appointment of Warne over Rosenior suggests maybe academy progression wasn't at the forefront of our thinking as a club though- would that be fair? In which case, the issue isn't with Warne, because he's doing exactly what most would expect, but with Clowes' decision-making...

And that's the bit I'm refusing to touch. I have too much gratitude for what DC did to even begin to start to question any of that stuff. If he thought prioritising promotion was in the best interest of the club, even to the short-term detriment of the academy, I'm going to blindly trust that at the minute. There's still a lot we don't know about behind the scenes, but I do absolutely believe that everything DC does is with integrity and acting in the best interest of the club, so in my ignorance, I'm going to trust him. 

Does that mean I agree with everything. No. But it does mean I'm being patient and seeing what happens before I call for the manager's head or similar. 

[Banksy]

23 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The way I see it, we have everything off-field ready for the Premier League - the fanbase size, the stadium, the training ground etc are all good enough. 

The whole post is excellent and I agree with all you say. 

[Banksy]

9 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I don't disagree, and I like this idea of how to run a football club and integrate the academy with the first team. The appointment of Warne over Rosenior suggests maybe academy progression wasn't at the forefront of our thinking as a club though- would that be fair? In which case, the issue isn't with Warne, because he's doing exactly what most would expect, but with Clowes' decision-making...

And that's the bit I'm refusing to touch. I have too much gratitude for what DC did to even begin to start to question any of that stuff. If he thought prioritising promotion was in the best interest of the club, even to the short-term detriment of the academy, I'm going to blindly trust that at the minute. There's still a lot we don't know about behind the scenes, but I do absolutely believe that everything DC does is with integrity and acting in the best interest of the club, so in my ignorance, I'm going to trust him. 

Does that mean I agree with everything. No. But it does mean I'm being patient and seeing what happens before I call for the manager's head or similar. 

I think you wholly misunderstand David Clowes' position in this. Of course, like all of us he wants promotion, but when he appointed Warne he clearly said that it was a part of a rebuild of the whole club and instant promotion was not an unequivocal condition of the appointment. But he was clear that the academy was vital in the rebuild and he has backed that up with the quality of staff brought in to run it at no small cost. What is being questioned here is Warne's commitment or ability to integrate the academy with the first team; 12 months down the line I think we are the only PL2 club whose first team does not reflect the style of play used in the academy. The owner is a proven businessman and a fan. I would be amazed if he does not share some of the concerns being expressed on here about how the first team can be best served by the academy. I'm sure he will be asking the question as to whether the problem can be rectified with the current management in place or not. Okay, Warne was his choice but if he comes to the conclusion it was the wrong choice I don't think he will be able to afford to let it continue. At some time he will have to decide whether or not to continue the project in its current form or to make a change. I went to Mansfield to see the Youth Cup tie and I was delighted to see the owner with the first-team coaches together watching an academy side because I had not seen that before. I wonder if it had anything to do with their discussions during the Sunday morning meeting after the Stevenage defeat?

[Wolfie20]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Well you’ve just thwarted the destiny of some forum posters🤷🏻‍♂️

FTFY

[YorkshireRam]

9 minutes ago, Banksy said:

I think you wholly misunderstand David Clowes' position in this. Of course, like all of us he wants promotion, but when he appointed Warne he clearly said that it was a part of a rebuild of the whole club and instant promotion was not an unequivocal condition of the appointment. But he was clear that the academy was vital in the rebuild and he has backed that up with the quality of staff brought in to run it at no small cost. What is being questioned here is Warne's commitment or ability to integrate the academy with the first team; 12 months down the line I think we are the only PL2 club whose first team does not reflect the style of play used in the academy. The owner is a proven businessman and a fan. I would be amazed if he does not share some of the concerns being expressed on here about how the first team can be best served by the academy. I'm sure he will be asking the question as to whether the problem can be rectified with the current management in place or not. Okay, Warne was his choice but if he comes to the conclusion it was the wrong choice I don't think he will be able to afford to let it continue. At some time he will have to decide whether or not to continue the project in its current form or to make a change. I went to Mansfield to see the Youth Cup tie and I was delighted to see the owner with the first-team coaches together watching an academy side because I had not seen that before. I wonder if it had anything to do with their discussions during the Sunday morning meeting after the Stevenage defeat?

So the implication could be Warne is going against the aims set out by Clowes for him to achieve? He could well be, we have no way of knowing what his primary aims are, and whether they're being achieved. I think this would be fairly reckless of Warne though, if it was explicitly stated to him upon appointment that academy inclusion and progression was a critical part of his task as manager, and then he instantly abandoned it upon entering the role, that'd be pretty brazen. Brazen to the point I do actually doubt it. 

''But he was clear that the academy was vital in the rebuild and he has backed that up with the quality of staff brought in to run it at no small cost.'' As fans, we're not privy to these conversations, and I don't tend to take press statements at face value. There was also a misunderstanding with the ''competitive budget' comments after we failed to pay a transfer fee for anyone (just to show why they can sometimes cause confusion).

If it was really that critical, wouldn't the logical appointment have been Rosenior who had a track record of not just integrating youth, but integrating OUR youth? This combined with the fact that not actively promoting youth isn't usually a hapless mistake but a series of deliberate actions lead me to believe this isn't actually Warne going against directives set out for him by the board/Clowes. But then again, I'm just guessing like everyone else. 

 

[Walkley Ram]

4 hours ago, Gerry Daly said:

Yorkshire Ram said 'We're in the weakest playing position in our club's history, coming out of the worst financial period' 

This is not true. In my opinion we were weaker playing wise in the early 1980's and the period before Maxwell got involved was just as bad financially. 

Warne inherited much better players last season than the squad Arthur Cox inherited plus a lot of very good youth players. Arthur took one season to start to reshape things, but you could see the progress being made. Then the next season it was constant, rapid progress all the way to 5th in the old first division. We made no progress last season and none so far this season either. Warne isn't good enough for Derby County       

Also, it doesn't matter how weak we are compared to recent years. We should be able to play better and beat the likes of 4th division Crewe, Stevenage, Cheltenham etc etc.

Just because we're not spending 10m on players, doesn't mean we're not still arguably one of the strongest league one teams. We're just not firing on all cylinders. Barely firing on one.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

So the implication could be Warne is going against the aims set out by Clowes for him to achieve? He could well be, we have no way of knowing what his primary aims are, and whether they're being achieved. I think this would be fairly reckless of Warne though, if it was explicitly stated to him upon appointment that academy inclusion and progression was a critical part of his task as manager, and then he instantly abandoned it upon entering the role, that'd be pretty brazen. Brazen to the point I do actually doubt it. 

Really? When he was appointed we were told Warne was 'adaptable' and that he was 'happy with the squad'. Who knows what was said in the interview with regards his thoughts on the Academy.