Warne Out Out

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The next 5 games leading up to a tricky game against Wigan on Boxing Day are..

Bristol Rovers, Port Vale, Leyton Orient, Wycombe and Lincoln.  I think this is an ideal time for Warne to prove his worth and shut people like me up.

5 winnable games, 4 wins at an absolute minimum from those 5 and that would see us comfortable top 6 and sets us up nicely to throw it all away in Jan and Feb 😆

 

We are in the third division and we should be winning every game because the other teams are not very good. Even the better teams are the ones we expect to beat comfortably in the championship - sorry but we massively underperformed on far too many occasions considering what we have available compared to other clubs - yes I know we can’t win every game but we should be looking like we would.

[Blondest Goat]

29 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

We are in the third division and we should be winning every game because the other teams are not very good. Even the better teams are the ones we expect to beat comfortably in the championship - sorry but we massively underperformed on far too many occasions considering what we have available compared to other clubs - yes I know we can’t win every game but we should be looking like we would.

Totally agree.  I'm not one screaming and shouting for a change of manager but some people's refusal to admit that we have seriously under-performed in 2023 with the resources at our disposal and the excuses they make to absolve the manager of any blame completely baffles me.  

[Ghost of Clough]

55 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Lot to unpack here but the general gist is that we've created a harder pathway to the first team for academy players?

''Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench''... Tony Weston was literally on the bench for our last league game after impressing on his debut in the cup. Is the implication he should have been playing every minute after scoring against an under 21s team? Collins scored 5 goals in a few days playing in his position, Weston hadn't earned the right to displace him. I mentioned above just shoving youngsters into games isn't automatically good for their development.

The academy has just had a hard reset. Part of what contributed to the recent turbulence was the need to promote all our best youth players to the first team, there's even an argument that we SHOULDN'T be promoting youth, simply to give the academy a chance to rebuild its success on the pitch.

''His carefully planned summer transfer spree''. Unless you have insider information the rest of us aren't privy to, why are you attributing the entirety of recruitment to Warne? I wasn't thrilled by our summer business either but we don't know anywhere near enough to say how much involvement in this Warne had, maybe he was let down by whoever was in charge of signing his choices up?

We're just outside the playoffs only on goals scored despite our terrible luck with injuries, so still in the promotion hunt. Without said injuries, we'd have 2 academy graduates in the first team that Warne himself promoted to regulars- plus Brown, Robinson, and Weston on the fringe, and at times we have played good football- so I actually disagree we ''have none of those things''. We're definitely not the finished product but given the radical change of style that I expected when Warne was appointed, I think there's green shoots, it just remains to be seen whether they'll blossom. 

Just picking up on your Weston comment. The crisisism isn't that Weston should be playing full 90s. There were two very clear opportunities to use him in the last 2 games.

The first was against Barnsley. We were 3-0 up after 80 mins played and still had 1 sub break to use (3 subs remaining). Weston absolutely should have been brought on. At worst, it would give Collins (our only fit forward) a little rest. At best, Weston feels rewarded and has the chance to earn a more permanent role in the squad.

[Comrade 86]

39 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

Totally agree.  I'm not one screaming and shouting for a change of manager but some people's refusal to admit that we have seriously under-performed in 2023 with the resources at our disposal and the excuses they make to absolve the manager of any blame completely baffles me.  

Really? Where are these posts? I don't see anyone saying we've performed as well as we could have, only lots of folk moaning that we haven't. 

[Stive Pesley]

5 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

The same league position an 'in-experienced' interim manager got us to? February is too late. 

Too late for what? This season? If only there were another season!

Roll the dice again - see what happens. Probably see you back here in February calling for another manager to be sacked for not winning every game

I honestly wonder if people support the same Derby County as me. Not that long ago we almost didn't have a club and now half the fans are losing their minds because we aren't Man City already

 

[Tamworthram]

44 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

Totally agree.  I'm not one screaming and shouting for a change of manager but some people's refusal to admit that we have seriously under-performed in 2023 with the resources at our disposal and the excuses they make to absolve the manager of any blame completely baffles me.  

To be fair, I’m not sure any/many are making “excuses to absolve the manager of any blame completely”. 
 

Most of us are suggesting some mitigating circumstances that need to be considered but certainly don’t absolve the manager completely. With this in mind, I agree we have underperformed but I wouldn’t necessarily say seriously underperformed.

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

Lot to unpack here but the general gist is that we've created a harder pathway to the first team for academy players?

''Barring an injury crisis, there's no way an academy player is even making the bench''... Tony Weston was literally on the bench for our last league game after impressing on his debut in the cup. Is the implication he should have been playing every minute after scoring against an under 21s team? Collins scored 5 goals in a few days playing in his position, Weston hadn't earned the right to displace him. I mentioned above just shoving youngsters into games isn't automatically good for their development.

The academy has just had a hard reset. Part of what contributed to the recent turbulence was the need to promote all our best youth players to the first team, there's even an argument that we SHOULDN'T be promoting youth, simply to give the academy a chance to rebuild its success on the pitch.

''His carefully planned summer transfer spree''. Unless you have insider information the rest of us aren't privy to, why are you attributing the entirety of recruitment to Warne? I wasn't thrilled by our summer business either but we don't know anywhere near enough to say how much involvement in this Warne had, maybe he was let down by whoever was in charge of signing his choices up?

We're just outside the playoffs only on goals scored despite our terrible luck with injuries, so still in the promotion hunt. Without said injuries, we'd have 2 academy graduates in the first team that Warne himself promoted to regulars- plus Brown, Robinson, and Weston on the fringe, and at times we have played good football- so I actually disagree we ''have none of those things''. We're definitely not the finished product but given the radical change of style that I expected when Warne was appointed, I think there's green shoots, it just remains to be seen whether they'll blossom. 

Your first sentence is basically bang on IMO.  We’ve got a big first team squad, playing a different style to the academy, with a manager that appears to not trust academy players when it really matters.  None of those things are conducive to developing academy players into first team ones.

Like I said, “barring an injury crisis”… with injuries and international call ups we had a lot of players missing for the last 2 games.  Weston probably doesn’t make the bench in either of those games if we have a reasonably fit squad. And like @Ghost of Clough said, he should have been given at least 20 minutes or so in one or both of those games.  Nobody is saying you have to play a team full of academy players all the time, just let them have a chance when they look like they’ve earned it.

The “hard reset” is only going to affect the rate at which players come through in the future. It’s not affecting the players that are still here and potentially ready right now.  Darren Robinson (for example) hasn’t suddenly got worse because of it.

It doesn’t matter who planned the transfers, it was clear that we weren’t going into the season intending to use Thompson and Rooney as regular first teamers, and they only came into the team after a major shift following a poor start.

Just outside the playoffs is not “promotion form”, unless the rules have been changed since I last looked? We’ve played well in a tiny handful of games where the opposition has completely stood off us and let us play, that’s it.  And we don’t know what would have happened if Thompson and Rooney hadn’t got injured. There were a lot of other first teamers out injured at the time - they could have easily both been benched for say Barkhuizen and Ward when they got back to fitness.  And arguably both of those players have had their development harmed by lack of usage last season.

[RoyMac5]

16 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

To be fair, I’m not sure any/many are making “excuses to absolve the manager of any blame completely”. 
 

Most of us are suggesting some mitigating circumstances that need to be considered but certainly don’t absolve the manager completely. With this in mind, I agree we have underperformed but I wouldn’t necessarily say seriously underperformed.

And the other bits that fans are expressing grave doubts about? That's the point being made. Taken individually then each point might be excused. But taken together? Where do you see Warne progressing the club to?

[nottingram]

1 hour ago, Wolfie20 said:

What do you consider to be 'very healthy resources'?

I guess a budget that the owner feels is good enough to make specific reference to in a pre season interview.

If you asked me for specific numbers I would probably say it is top 3-5 in the division, at a guess. And I dare say higher than that.

[Tamworthram]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

And the other bits that fans are expressing grave doubts about? That's the point being made. Taken individually then each point might be excused. But taken together? Where do you see Warne progressing the club to?

No. The points being made that I was responding to were that some fans think we have seriously underperformed and that some fans are making excuses to completely absolve the manager of any blame.

 

[Ghost of Clough]

5 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

The same league position an 'in-experienced' interim manager got us to? February is too late. Another transfer window along the lines of summer? Neither the ins nor outs from then have made us much stronger - maybe, finally, a right back. Where is our 'long-term strategy' and our Premier League ambition after more than a year of Warne?

Feb is the perfect time for Warnock. He doesn't like it in the dugout during cold winters anymore.

[Blondest Goat]

51 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Really? Where are these posts? I don't see anyone saying we've performed as well as we could have, only lots of folk moaning that we haven't. 

I didn't say that anyone had said that but don't worry about it.

41 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

To be fair, I’m not sure any/many are making “excuses to absolve the manager of any blame completely”. 
 

Most of us are suggesting some mitigating circumstances that need to be considered but certainly don’t absolve the manager completely. With this in mind, I agree we have underperformed but I wouldn’t necessarily say seriously underperformed.

Completely baffles me.  Not absolve blame completely.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Blondest Goat

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

53 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Too late for what? This season? If only there were another season!

Roll the dice again - see what happens. Probably see you back here in February calling for another manager to be sacked for not winning every game

I honestly wonder if people support the same Derby County as me. Not that long ago we almost didn't have a club and now half the fans are losing their minds because we aren't Man City already

 

They're really not are they. Not wanting to spend another year in this turgid league, especially as it will be harder to get out of next year with the clubs dropping in, is rather different to demanding premier league titles and European titles. 

[Ram-Alf]

6 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

Rosenior gave us pretty football

Wow that's some statement 😬 to you...to me

[Tamworthram]

19 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

I didn't say that anyone had said that but don't worry about it.

Completely baffles me.  Not absolve blame completely.

 

Ah, that makes sense. Hopefully you can see how a simple statement can be read two different ways rather than me trying to put words in your mouth. Having said that, I’m not sure you can partially absolve someone from blame or guilt. You’re either absolved or you’re not. I’ll have to check with my wife. She’s more of a wordsmith than me. 😀

[YorkshireRam]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Your first sentence is basically bang on IMO.  We’ve got a big first team squad, playing a different style to the academy, with a manager that appears to not trust academy players when it really matters.  None of those things are conducive to developing academy players into first team ones.

Like I said, “barring an injury crisis”… with injuries and international call ups we had a lot of players missing for the last 2 games.  Weston probably doesn’t make the bench in either of those games if we have a reasonably fit squad. And like @Ghost of Clough said, he should have been given at least 20 minutes or so in one or both of those games.  Nobody is saying you have to play a team full of academy players all the time, just let them have a chance when they look like they’ve earned it.

The “hard reset” is only going to affect the rate at which players come through in the future. It’s not affecting the players that are still here and potentially ready right now.  Darren Robinson (for example) hasn’t suddenly got worse because of it.

It doesn’t matter who planned the transfers, it was clear that we weren’t going into the season intending to use Thompson and Rooney as regular first teamers, and they only came into the team after a major shift following a poor start.

Just outside the playoffs is not “promotion form”, unless the rules have been changed since I last looked? We’ve played well in a tiny handful of games where the opposition has completely stood off us and let us play, that’s it.  And we don’t know what would have happened if Thompson and Rooney hadn’t got injured. There were a lot of other first teamers out injured at the time - they could have easily both been benched for say Barkhuizen and Ward when they got back to fitness.  And arguably both of those players have had their development harmed by lack of usage last season.

Fair points. I guess my point about the academy wasn't a reflection on anyone's individual ability, more that maybe Robinson is better utilised as a regular in the u21s so they can prosper, rather than sporadic first team appearances where he may not make an impact. Although thinking about it, these two aren't mutually exclusive.

I think I agree with the overall sentiment. I love to see our homegrown youngsters utilised. Warne's comments on this were maybe a bit misguided, but I do think he's utilised youth more than some previous managers e.g. Rowett, Clement

Maybe I'm just being blindly optimistic, I was guilty of this with Cocu as I did really want him to succeed. I think with Warne there's just a few too many unlucky, mitigating factors at the minute for me to condemn him. Just feels like the picture will be clearer with a fully fit squad, and a chance to build proper consistency and form- the inability to field a settled XI due to injuries is a big thing I've not heard many talk about.

[YorkshireRam]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Just picking up on your Weston comment. The crisisism isn't that Weston should be playing full 90s. There were two very clear opportunities to use him in the last 2 games.

The first was against Barnsley. We were 3-0 up after 80 mins played and still had 1 sub break to use (3 subs remaining). Weston absolutely should have been brought on. At worst, it would give Collins (our only fit forward) a little rest. At best, Weston feels rewarded and has the chance to earn a more permanent role in the squad.

I did consider this. But is that the level we're getting to now- bashing a manager for not giving a youngster who hasn't played at a senior level yet (senior competition but against a youth team) a brief cameo at the end of a game we were seeing out?

Dunno, that just seems a very trivial level to start criticising on. If Weston had scored and then instantly been relegated back to the u21s, fair enough. But he's clearly being integrated into the first team picture now, and I'd argue that may well be progress (and reward) enough? 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

They're really not are they. Not wanting to spend another year in this turgid league, especially as it will be harder to get out of next year with the clubs dropping in, is rather different to demanding premier league titles and European titles. 

Yes - that's because I was exaggerating for effect. It's a construct that people can use in arguments to highlight the flaw in the opposing position. We're joint 6th and have shown signs that we can put in decent performances. And it's November

Don't get me wrong - I'm not especially convinced by Warne, but to change horses at this point feels like a far bigger risk than to give him a bit longer. Thankfully Clowes doesn't seem quite as recklessly unpredictable as Mel Morris - or half our fanbase. Just have to be grateful that we've got a sensible head in charge

 

[Srg]

18 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I did consider this. But is that the level we're getting to now- bashing a manager for not giving a youngster who hasn't played at a senior level yet (senior competition but against a youth team) a brief cameo at the end of a game we were seeing out?

Dunno, that just seems a very trivial level to start criticising on. If Weston had scored and then instantly been relegated back to the u21s, fair enough. But he's clearly being integrated into the first team picture now, and I'd argue that may well be progress (and reward) enough? 

Not really. When the team lacks in certain areas - pace, athleticism, youth, strikers - and you aren’t willing to use time in competitive games when the result is safe to see what you may or may not have in-house, it’s a perfectly valid criticism. 

It’s not like we are sitting on a plethora of options at senior level. We have glaring issues which finding solutions for seem logical to try and do. 

[Ghost of Clough]

25 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I did consider this. But is that the level we're getting to now- bashing a manager for not giving a youngster who hasn't played at a senior level yet (senior competition but against a youth team) a brief cameo at the end of a game we were seeing out?

Dunno, that just seems a very trivial level to start criticising on. If Weston had scored and then instantly been relegated back to the u21s, fair enough. But he's clearly being integrated into the first team picture now, and I'd argue that may well be progress (and reward) enough? 

If it was a one off, I would agree with you. However, it's a consistent pattern from when Warne first became manager. Opportunities to guve academy players minutes to prove themselves and to give first teamers a little rest to prevent burnout.

Warne has also repeatedly come out with comments suggesting he: doesn't trust young players; thinks it's disrespectful to the opposition to use them for a meaningful amount of time; has a blind view that you need to be a League 1 level player just to play 10 minutes in a game; and also comes out with excuses why he didn't bring them on ("ran out of subs").