Warne Out Out

[BathRam72]

24 minutes ago, LondonRam2 said:

11th in League 1.  Is this the lowest we have ever been in our entire history?

If so, does PW really understand what that means, and just how humiliating it is for a club of this size?

We are not here because the team as it was under Rooney played badly, but for other reasons.  In purely footballing terms we should not be here, and yet we are struggling to escape.

This squad is theoretically one of the strongest in this league, and yet are clearly underperforming.

To struggle, and lose, against all these League 1 minnows is embarrassing frankly.  If PW understands this league so well, how come this keeps on happening?  Or is he, as Roy Hodgson was at Liverpool, a good manager but simply out of his depth?

IMO unless we pick up at least 4 points from the next 2 games and/or return to the top 10 during the next week then he is toast.

He has 2 games to save his job.

I like the guy, but maybe if he stopped being so damn nice, and cared a bit less about being popular in the dressing room, then we would see some better performances and results.

Are you David Clowes? Or in the know? Or like everyone else, a speculation master? Hoping one of your little snippets comes true, so you can say, "I told you so".

[RoyMac5]

10 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

It's the classic quantity over quality dilemma.

We could have brought players in for transfer fees but that would have used up all the kitty very quickly. 

Or we could have brought in a number of players on frees to bulk up the squad but none of them of a particularly high calibre.

In the end rightly or wrongly Warne chose the latter strategy 

What have you done with Tyler? We'll crowdfund for his release! 😄#COYR

Edited October 24, 2023 by RoyMac5

[MadAmster]

12 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Well when we are nowhere in site of being in the promotion race come the January transfer window. We will sell our prized young talent on the cheap, i.e. Cashin, Bird,  Sibley and Thompson. Then we will have the cash to off load Warne and his dross coaching staff. But we will be set back at least 2 or 3 seasons with no decent players and the incoming manager and his team will have to be the bees knees to get this club out of league one.

IMO, none of the 4 players you mention would bring in the amounts many fans think they will. All 4 are out of contract in the summer and will be allowed to talk to other clubs from January and negotiate moves and sign pre contract agreements which will see DCFC only get whatever compensation gets dreamt up. The players will get a higher wage offer than they would if a "proper" transfer fee was applicable and a healthier signing on fee. Thommo is out long term so probably won't be targeted by other clubs so I expect him to sign a new contract, if offered one. The others will quite likely have their agents talking to potential suitors.

[Ram-Alf]

12 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Deep.

 

Christ on a bike we've got   as a Manager  

[CornwallRam]

I reckon there's been some mass hypnosis of football fans over the the last few years. Somehow, people now believe that tedious, short, sideways passing for most of a match is good football. It isn't, it's turgid anti-football nonsense. The brand of football peddled by Clement, Cocu and Rosenior is the least entertaining way of playing imaginable. I'm just amazed that so many people have been convinced by the excitement free, safety of the slow build up. It's Emperors new clothes writ large.

Warne's problem isn't that his brand of football isn't entertaining or effective. A fast passing game with early crosses and a high press is a great way of playing. The trouble is that we aren't playing that way. We're too slow to see the pass, too scared to take risks, not pressing as a team and delaying the crosses until the defence are organised. Warne's massive problem, and the reason he will soon be gone, is that  he has failed to get the team to play Warneball.

I wonder if that's a facet of being at a bigger club? Is he looking too far forward? There's a big thing been made that most of the recruitment has been of players with Championship experience. I suspect at Rotherham, that wasn't a thing. The players brought in were younger athletes with just enough ability to play in an organised League 1 side, but that was perfect for Warneball.

The players bought in here have more proven ability, but are that bit older and slower.  Maybe they are also less mouldable, having already seen how football is played at a higher level. Is that why a proven League 1 manager appears to be a poor fit for Derby County? He's adjusted his style for the bigger club and diluted his winning formula. 

After 50 years of watching football, the common factor with successful teans has just dawned on me. Our best sides are built around the striker's style. Warne is trying to shoehorn the strikers into his style. Yet our best managers worked out what their best strikers needed to be the most successful and set the team up to deliver it for them. 

Chris Martin was a donkey for a lot of his career, but as a pivot striker with Bryson, Ward and Russell running past and Eustace or Thorne feeding him, he looked like a world beater.

Look at the movement of Biano, Wanchope and Sturridge - all made possible by three central defenders and a holding midfielder.

Hector and O'Hare - fed by Hinton and constantly assisted by Gemmil.

Stevie Howard, Charlie George, Saunders and Goddard...etc. Even Nigel fell on a system with Shefki Kuqi starring that briefly looked brilliant until he inexplicably replaced Kuqi with Young. Warne himself accidentally got a winning formula last year with McGoldrick in the 9.5 role (yes I made that term up, but you know what I mean).

My conclusion is that the style doesn't hugely matter, as long as it suits the best strikers available at the club.

 

[duncanjwitham]

18 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

I reckon there's been some mass hypnosis of football fans over the the last few years. Somehow, people now believe that tedious, short, sideways passing for most of a match is good football. It isn't, it's turgid anti-football nonsense. The brand of football peddled by Clement, Cocu and Rosenior is the least entertaining way of playing imaginable. I'm just amazed that so many people have been convinced by the excitement free, safety of the slow build up. It's Emperors new clothes writ large.

Warne's problem isn't that his brand of football isn't entertaining or effective. A fast passing game with early crosses and a high press is a great way of playing. The trouble is that we aren't playing that way. We're too slow to see the pass, too scared to take risks, not pressing as a team and delaying the crosses until the defence are organised. Warne's massive problem, and the reason he will soon be gone, is that  he has failed to get the team to play Warneball.

None of those managers want slow sideways passing though, it's what happens when the team trying to play it hasn't quite clicked yet, or doesn't quite have the right players in place yet.  When it does click, you get stuff like that McClaren side, which was one of the most entertaining and exciting Derby teams I've ever seen.

Edited October 24, 2023 by duncanjwitham

[Elwood P Dowd]

41 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Christ on a bike we've got   as a Manager  

Perhaps if we stop putting crosses into the box when there is no one to take advantage of them that might help!!!!!

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” quote attributed to Albert Einstein

 

[sage]

12 hours ago, Mick Brolly said:

This must be wrong some poster were positive that we had fees to spend 

We did. It just meant bringing less players in. 

[simmoram1995]

1 hour ago, CornwallRam said:

I reckon there's been some mass hypnosis of football fans over the the last few years. Somehow, people now believe that tedious, short, sideways passing for most of a match is good football. It isn't, it's turgid anti-football nonsense. The brand of football peddled by Clement, Cocu and Rosenior is the least entertaining way of playing imaginable. I'm just amazed that so many people have been convinced by the excitement free, safety of the slow build up. It's Emperors new clothes writ large.

Warne's problem isn't that his brand of football isn't entertaining or effective. A fast passing game with early crosses and a high press is a great way of playing. The trouble is that we aren't playing that way. We're too slow to see the pass, too scared to take risks, not pressing as a team and delaying the crosses until the defence are organised. Warne's massive problem, and the reason he will soon be gone, is that  he has failed to get the team to play Warneball.

I wonder if that's a facet of being at a bigger club? Is he looking too far forward? There's a big thing been made that most of the recruitment has been of players with Championship experience. I suspect at Rotherham, that wasn't a thing. The players brought in were younger athletes with just enough ability to play in an organised League 1 side, but that was perfect for Warneball.

The players bought in here have more proven ability, but are that bit older and slower.  Maybe they are also less mouldable, having already seen how football is played at a higher level. Is that why a proven League 1 manager appears to be a poor fit for Derby County? He's adjusted his style for the bigger club and diluted his winning formula. 

After 50 years of watching football, the common factor with successful teans has just dawned on me. Our best sides are built around the striker's style. Warne is trying to shoehorn the strikers into his style. Yet our best managers worked out what their best strikers needed to be the most successful and set the team up to deliver it for them. 

Chris Martin was a donkey for a lot of his career, but as a pivot striker with Bryson, Ward and Russell running past and Eustace or Thorne feeding him, he looked like a world beater.

Look at the movement of Biano, Wanchope and Sturridge - all made possible by three central defenders and a holding midfielder.

Hector and O'Hare - fed by Hinton and constantly assisted by Gemmil.

Stevie Howard, Charlie George, Saunders and Goddard...etc. Even Nigel fell on a system with Shefki Kuqi starring that briefly looked brilliant until he inexplicably replaced Kuqi with Young. Warne himself accidentally got a winning formula last year with McGoldrick in the 9.5 role (yes I made that term up, but you know what I mean).

My conclusion is that the style doesn't hugely matter, as long as it suits the best strikers available at the club.

 

When Collins got his 20-25 goals he was playing as a two and told to stay in the middle 

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, simmoram1995 said:

When Collins got his 20-25 goals he was playing as a two and told to stay in the middle 

He was also circa 27 years old, and not the donkey ready for the glue factory we currently have.

[MadAmster]

10 minutes ago, simmoram1995 said:

When Collins got his 20-25 goals he was playing as a two and told to stay in the middle 

Strikers hunt in pairs was always the adage.

[Elwood P Dowd]

8 minutes ago, simmoram1995 said:

When Collins got his 20-25 goals he was playing as a two and told to stay in the middle 

This is part of the problem, Collins is often out on the wing and putting crosses in himself, I apreciate his hard work but he needs to stay in the penalty area, between to goal posts.

[Ghost of Clough]

38 minutes ago, sage said:

We did. It just meant bringing less players in. 

Or the same number of players, but on less wages. More Wilsons and Fornahs... fewer Bradleys and Elders?

Whilst Warne keeps saying we didn't sign anyone for a fee in the summer, Wilson, Fornah and Washington all joined for *undisclosed*. It was inferred that they will cost us if we win promotion and/or sell them on.

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, CornwallRam said:

I reckon there's been some mass hypnosis of football fans over the the last few years. Somehow, people now believe that tedious, short, sideways passing for most of a match is good football. It isn't, it's turgid anti-football nonsense. The brand of football peddled by Clement, Cocu and Rosenior is the least entertaining way of playing imaginable. I'm just amazed that so many people have been convinced by the excitement free, safety of the slow build up. It's Emperors new clothes writ large.

Warne's problem isn't that his brand of football isn't entertaining or effective. A fast passing game with early crosses and a high press is a great way of playing. The trouble is that we aren't playing that way. We're too slow to see the pass, too scared to take risks, not pressing as a team and delaying the crosses until the defence are organised. Warne's massive problem, and the reason he will soon be gone, is that  he has failed to get the team to play Warneball.

I wonder if that's a facet of being at a bigger club? Is he looking too far forward? There's a big thing been made that most of the recruitment has been of players with Championship experience. I suspect at Rotherham, that wasn't a thing. The players brought in were younger athletes with just enough ability to play in an organised League 1 side, but that was perfect for Warneball.

The players bought in here have more proven ability, but are that bit older and slower.  Maybe they are also less mouldable, having already seen how football is played at a higher level. Is that why a proven League 1 manager appears to be a poor fit for Derby County? He's adjusted his style for the bigger club and diluted his winning formula. 

After 50 years of watching football, the common factor with successful teans has just dawned on me. Our best sides are built around the striker's style. Warne is trying to shoehorn the strikers into his style. Yet our best managers worked out what their best strikers needed to be the most successful and set the team up to deliver it for them. 

Chris Martin was a donkey for a lot of his career, but as a pivot striker with Bryson, Ward and Russell running past and Eustace or Thorne feeding him, he looked like a world beater.

Look at the movement of Biano, Wanchope and Sturridge - all made possible by three central defenders and a holding midfielder.

Hector and O'Hare - fed by Hinton and constantly assisted by Gemmil.

Stevie Howard, Charlie George, Saunders and Goddard...etc. Even Nigel fell on a system with Shefki Kuqi starring that briefly looked brilliant until he inexplicably replaced Kuqi with Young. Warne himself accidentally got a winning formula last year with McGoldrick in the 9.5 role (yes I made that term up, but you know what I mean).

My conclusion is that the style doesn't hugely matter, as long as it suits the best strikers available at the club.

 

The style of most succesful sides is similar , possesion, playing out from the back etc and when done well is very good to watch

I watch lots of football basically every live game on TV and believe me we are light years behind teams in the prem as you'd imagine and when watching championship clubs playing decent keep ball playing out from the back we are also miles off of a lot of decent championship sides 

Playing out from the back and being brave and keeping possesion seems to be the norm now and the way to play trying to open up teams with movement, passing ,shifting the ball from one side to the other quickly blah blah

We are a L1 club that needs to get out of L1 because this league is not great yet we are looking and playing like a L1 club more and more even though we have the best squad of players in L1

For us to make progress and somehow close the gulf between prem,championship we need a plan of how to do this 

The archaeic dinosaur football we are playing is neither good to watch or building blocks towards closing the gulf in quality

If we had a plan to play decent football and encourage youth and build a sustainable model that will need tweaks rather than major surgery if we were to get out of the crap division I'd be more than happy with a bit of time being required, but to watch the turgid anti football I'm currently watching I'm now starting to consider work instead of attending games as it costs me over 100 quid easily each game ....it is much more than just playing to your strikers strengths, City won the league without a proper number 9 a few seasons ago...

I firmly believe you win more than you lose by looking after the ball more and getting players forward

[RoyMac5]

39 minutes ago, S8TY said:

The style of most succesful sides is similar , possesion, playing out from the back etc and when done well is very good to watch

I watch lots of football basically every live game on TV and believe me we are light years behind teams in the prem as you'd imagine and when watching championship clubs playing decent keep ball playing out from the back we are also miles off of a lot of decent championship sides 

Playing out from the back and being brave and keeping possesion seems to be the norm now and the way to play trying to open up teams with movement, passing ,shifting the ball from one side to the other quickly blah blah

We are a L1 club that needs to get out of L1 because this league is not great yet we are looking and playing like a L1 club more and more even though we have the best squad of players in L1

For us to make progress and somehow close the gulf between prem,championship we need a plan of how to do this 

The archaeic dinosaur football we are playing is neither good to watch or building blocks towards closing the gulf in quality

If we had a plan to play decent football and encourage youth and build a sustainable model that will need tweaks rather than major surgery if we were to get out of the crap division I'd be more than happy with a bit of time being required, but to watch the turgid anti football I'm currently watching I'm now starting to consider work instead of attending games as it costs me over 100 quid easily each game ....it is much more than just playing to your strikers strengths, City won the league without a proper number 9 a few seasons ago...

I firmly believe you win more than you lose by looking after the ball more and getting players forward

I agree. I think we're behind some of the league 1 teams too! When I watch the matches on tv I have to stop myself thinking about how we play nothing like any of the teams being shown, not even glimpses. I cannot understand how Clowes can watch the football being played by us currently and think that there is anyway forward with it.

It is the most depressing thing about Warne's tenure, and even IF he got us promoted what would we have left that resembled a footballing side. #COYR

Edited October 24, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Alty_Ram]

1 hour ago, CornwallRam said:

I reckon there's been some mass hypnosis of football fans over the the last few years. Somehow, people now believe that tedious, short, sideways passing for most of a match is good football. It isn't, it's turgid anti-football nonsense.

I understand what you are saying to a point but I don't think that anyone is asking for slow turgid football. Keeping possession needs to be with a plan in mind not just keep ball for keep ball's sake. You can play possession football with an intention to attack swiftly with swift controlled passing, as all the best sides in the top flight do and even as a League 1 side, we look at our best when we do quick crisp passing moves. Clearly, how effective that is will be dictated largely by whether you have the players to play that way. We can definitely play a bit but our plan seems to be to just get it out wide and bang a cross in, regardless of whether we have the forwards to make that work.

We have players with skill and creativity in the middle in the form of Bird and Hourihane but how often do we play though the middle with quick incisive moves? Rarely, we usually just switch it out wide. Sure, sometimes you want to get the ball out wide and stretch the defence before whipping a ball in, but that becomes really predictable when its all that you try to do (and not particularly successfully either). Defences at this level usually have 2 or 3 big lads in the middle and just banging mediocre crosses in is exactly what they want.

Getting lots of crosses in is great if their defence is desperately streaming back to try and smother an attack but if they are already well set then it's bread and butter defending unless you are going to play some big beast up front which we don't. We seem to be between stools. Our approach work largely seems to be is that of a team that expects to get joy from crosses but our forward line are not that type. Our 'style' seems based on an assumption that the opposition has over-extended itself and we can counter. Sometimes, going wide just gives the opposition vital time to get ready for the cross.

Ideally we need to be able to mix it up and thread balls through without always waiting for the wide option. Ideally we need a striker with the ability to make those runs though and that is a slight problem as it stands. As I say, we are a bit 'between stools' with this squad. Neither one thing nor the other.

[DavesaRam]

22 hours ago, On the Ram Page said:

So a serious question RoyMac5. Why aren’t they passing the football better at the moment. I don’t buy that it’s all Warne hoof ball as we have had some excellent paying movements for goals recently. Why can’t we pass the ball to each other.? Is it that people are too stationary (especially) the forwards, because I am absolutely certain that Warne does not tell them to pass it to the opposition. Are we too careless? Is our squad not quite as good as we think they are? Liam Rosenier’s side I guess completed more passes but the vast majority were across the back four.

seriously why can’t we pass the pass better?

Its a great question. It my have something to do with us getting the ball put wide and upfield as quickly as possible in a team set up for counter-attacking. So the ball speeds off up the pitch leaving the olayets trying to catch up with it, so the whole tram is stretched out, with large haps between defence and midfield, and between midfield and the front line.

So instead of short  or medium length passes, we ate having to attempt long “wonder-ball” type passes which are harder to execute. This is typified by Cashin, who used to do the shorter passes interspersed with the longer glory balls, which he was good at. Now all he has left to do are the super long passes, so his success rate is now much lower, so he appears to be a worse player.

It’s down to tactics, I’m afraid. Which I seem to think nay have been mentioned on this forum a time or two.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

6 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Its a great question. It my have something to do with us getting the ball put wide and upfield as quickly as possible in a team set up for counter-attacking. So the ball speeds off up the pitch leaving the olayets trying to catch up with it, so the whole tram is stretched out, with large haps between defence and midfield, and between midfield and the front line.

So instead of short  or medium length passes, we ate having to attempt long “wonder-ball” type passes which are harder to execute. This is typified by Cashin, who used to do the shorter passes interspersed with the longer glory balls, which he was good at. Now all he has left to do are the super long passes, so his success rate is now much lower, so he appears to be a worse player.

It’s down to tactics, I’m afraid. Which I seem to think nay have been mentioned on this forum a time or two.

[Ghost of Clough]

22 hours ago, On the Ram Page said:

So a serious question RoyMac5. Why aren’t they passing the football better at the moment. I don’t buy that it’s all Warne hoof ball as we have had some excellent paying movements for goals recently. Why can’t we pass the ball to each other.? Is it that people are too stationary (especially) the forwards, because I am absolutely certain that Warne does not tell them to pass it to the opposition. Are we too careless? Is our squad not quite as good as we think they are? Liam Rosenier’s side I guess completed more passes but the vast majority were across the back four.

seriously why can’t we pass the pass better?

It may sound backwards, but instinctive passing is coached. The more you repeat it in training, the more instinctive it is when you are in the same situation during the match. We have a coach who doesn't value passing, so very little emphasis will be on that during training sessions, and in turn, there is no instinctive passing during games. Players will take extra touches before making the pass, get dispossessed before being able to spot a pass, make the wrong pass or pass to the opposition, etc..

There's also the receiving the ball side of things. When someone is making those instinctive passes, the rest of the team will also instinctively know where the pass is going before it's even played.
The midfielder knows where to go to pick the ball up off the defence... The forward knows when to come deep to pick up the ball from the midfielder... The winger knows when to make that run behind the full back... The forward knows which area to attack for the cross or pull back, etc...

[DavesaRam]

15 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Well when we are nowhere in site of being in the promotion race come the January transfer window. We will sell our prized young talent on the cheap, i.e. Cashin, Bird,  Sibley and Thompson. Then we will have the cash to off load Warne and his dross coaching staff. But we will be set back at least 2 or 3 seasons with no decent players and the incoming manager and his team will have to be the bees knees to get this club out of league one.

They might even have to resort to playing football …….. 🙄