Anyone else had enough?

[Chris_Martin]

11 hours ago, MadAmster said:

It was disjointed, not good to watch and we have always struggled against that kind of team.

Up top we have players like Collo, Waggy and Wash who can all score. Sibs can put them away, as can NML and Barks... two away games on the trot where we had half a dozen or more good attempts on target and either the keeper saved well or a defender blocked it on the line. You can't lay that at PWs door. You can't slate the players for it. The opposition are simply doing their jobs well in those important moments. So many fans seem not to appreciate that.

what? i think you need to check your stats again. We had 3 attempts on goal the entire game, not more than half a dozen. Wildsmith made better saves than their keeper aswell. If our chances were that good it would be reflected in the xg stats, which yet again were an abysmal 0.5xg for the whole match. 

You say that Collins, Waggy, Washington, Barkhuizen, NML, Sibley can all score goals. So why aren't they? We don't create enough, sit back way too much, and have a completely predictable and one dimensional gameplan.

Your also saying that oppositions are just simply doing their jobs better. So basically we are getting outplayed by smaller clubs, with worse players. 

Thats all on the manager, no one else.

 

[Tyler Durden]

8 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

what? i think you need to check your stats again. We had 3 attempts on goal the entire game, not more than half a dozen. Wildsmith made better saves than their keeper aswell. If our chances were that good it would be reflected in the xg stats, which yet again were an abysmal 0.5xg for the whole match. 

You say that Collins, Waggy, Washington, Barkhuizen, NML, Sibley can all score goals. So why aren't they? We don't create enough, sit back way too much, and have a completely predictable and one dimensional gameplan.

Your also saying that oppositions are just simply doing their jobs better. So basically we are getting outplayed by smaller clubs, with worse players. 

Thats all on the manager, no one else.

 

BBC Sport website said we had 6 shots on target.

So somebody needs to check their stats.

[Chris_Martin]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

BBC Sport website said we had 6 shots on target.

So somebody needs to check their stats.

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, Chris_Martin said:

That's not the BBC Sport website though is it.

So my original point still stands. 

[kevinhectoring]

On 11/10/2023 at 10:04, Topram said:

anyone else just had enough with the constant negativity towards the players and staff?

There is a lot of negativity about the manager. There is no negativity I’ve seen about the squad as a whole, in fact most people recognise that for this division we have a strong squad. 

[europia]

11 hours ago, MadAmster said:

The opposition are simply doing their jobs well in those important moments. 

Undeniably. However, if the team succumb to that mindset, we aren't going to win many games, unfortunately....

[Van der MoodHoover]

6 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

That's not the BBC Sport website though is it.

So my original point still stands. 

Every single stat is different on the BBC website, including some fairly objective measures like " number of fouls"

The BBC stats say they're provided by someone called PA Media, whoever they are, rather than being their own reporters.

BBC don't produce an XG stat either.

[IslandExile]

3 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

PA Media, whoever they are

The Press Association - probably the leading news agency in the country - not just for Sports either. They provide much of the news for all media outlets.

[Tyler Durden]

3 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Every single stat is different on the BBC website, including some fairly objective measures like " number of fouls"

The BBC stats say they're provided by someone called PA Media, whoever they are, rather than being their own reporters.

BBC don't produce an XG stat either.

It's confusing isn't it.

You can't even have a coherent debate on here regards match stats as it's totally dependant on which source you use to derive your information from 

[MadAmster]

21 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Of course you can lay it at Warne's door! We played poorly with good players, they played reasonably well. The only thing in our favour was Wildsmith had a couple of saves, one a worldy, and their no9 totally free in our box twice, couldn't hit a barn door! 

We were set up to play awful football with good players, of course we will get chances.

For a good few years now, we've had difficulty dealing with the "lumped in ball". It either doesn't get cleared or only gets half cleared.

Both keepers had to make some very good and very necessary saves.

If you read the post of mine you quoted, you will see that my "Warne's door" comment was linked to "two away games on the trot where we had half a dozen or more good attempts on target and either the keeper saved well or a defender blocked it on the line. You can't lay that at PWs door."    Ergo, you can't blame PW for the opposition keeper making excellent saves or opposition defenders making goal line blocks. That is the context in which it was written. You've taken it out of context in order to push your point.

[MadAmster]

11 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

what? i think you need to check your stats again. We had 3 attempts on goal the entire game, not more than half a dozen. Wildsmith made better saves than their keeper aswell. If our chances were that good it would be reflected in the xg stats, which yet again were an abysmal 0.5xg for the whole match. 

You say that Collins, Waggy, Washington, Barkhuizen, NML, Sibley can all score goals. So why aren't they? We don't create enough, sit back way too much, and have a completely predictable and one dimensional gameplan.

Your also saying that oppositions are just simply doing their jobs better. So basically we are getting outplayed by smaller clubs, with worse players. 

Thats all on the manager, no one else.

 

At Cheltenham we had 8 shots on target from 18 shots in total. At Shrewsbury we had 6 shots on target from 11 shots. Source BBC. Where does your 3 come from?

Why aren't we scoring more? Good saves and goal line blocks? When we do it, the keeper or the defender has done well. When the oppo does it, it's because we're crap. apparently. I prefer to credit the opposition as much as our own players in such a situation.

Their keeper did well with Nelson's header and 2 shots from Barks in the first half. More good saves 2nd half...

Wildsmith pulled off some very good saves as well. I praise the keepers in all of the above. There's the difference.

[MadAmster]

11 hours ago, europia said:

Undeniably. However, if the team succumb to that mindset, we aren't going to win many games, unfortunately....

Who said anything about anybody succumbing? JW pulled of some very good saves at Shrews and gets applauded for it. His opposite number does the same, more often and that's our players at fault? That seems to be the mantra/vibe I'm getting from some posters on here. To me JW was our best player on the day, as was their keeper theirs.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, MadAmster said:

At Cheltenham we had 8 shots on target from 18 shots in total. At Shrewsbury we had 6 shots on target from 11 shots. Source BBC. Where does your 3 come from? Why aren't we scoring more? Good saves and goal line blocks? When we do it, the keeper or the defender has done well. When the oppo does it, it's because we're crap. apparently. I prefer to credit the opposition as much as our own players in such a situation. Their keeper did well with Nelson's header and 2 shots from Barks in the first half. More good saves 2nd half...

Wildsmith pulled off some very good saves as well. I praise the keepers in all of the above. There's the difference.

Yeah it's like that's not fair is it, they should make teams play without keepers! 😄

Edited October 23, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Chris_Martin]

2 hours ago, MadAmster said:

At Cheltenham we had 8 shots on target from 18 shots in total. At Shrewsbury we had 6 shots on target from 11 shots. Source BBC. Where does your 3 come from?

Why aren't we scoring more? Good saves and goal line blocks? When we do it, the keeper or the defender has done well. When the oppo does it, it's because we're crap. apparently. I prefer to credit the opposition as much as our own players in such a situation.

Their keeper did well with Nelson's header and 2 shots from Barks in the first half. More good saves 2nd half...

Wildsmith pulled off some very good saves as well. I praise the keepers in all of the above. There's the difference.

i don't use BBC stats as they have been wrong in the past. They are also very limited and give you hardly any detail about the matches. They don't even bother with xg for example. 

You can't say the reason we're not scoring enough is due to good saves and goal line blocks. I could believe that if it were for 1 or 2 games, but we've had 15 matches this season which is a large sample size and it suggests otherwise. 

Yes i agree both keepers had good games but not sure the relevance of that in the argument

[Archied]

47 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

i don't use BBC stats as they have been wrong in the past. They are also very limited and give you hardly any detail about the matches. They don't even bother with xg for example. 

You can't say the reason we're not scoring enough is due to good saves and goal line blocks. I could believe that if it were for 1 or 2 games, but we've had 15 matches this season which is a large sample size and it suggests otherwise. 

Yes i agree both keepers had good games but not sure the relevance of that in the argument

Maybe they don’t do xg because they are the most subjective load of old guff recently invented,, even shots and shots on target can often be not the best reflection of a game you’ve watched with your own eyes 🤷🏻‍♂️

my eyes and the undeniable stat ( points gained ) tell me warne is under big pressure now and only wins and moving up the table can save his butt, it is a big move from Rotherham to derby and he is floundering a bit , you can see it in his interviews 

[Chris_Martin]

10 minutes ago, Archied said:

Maybe they don’t do xg because they are the most subjective load of old guff recently invented,, even shots and shots on target can often be not the best reflection of a game you’ve watched with your own eyes 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[MadAmster]

54 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

i don't use BBC stats as they have been wrong in the past. They are also very limited and give you hardly any detail about the matches. They don't even bother with xg for example. 

You can't say the reason we're not scoring enough is due to good saves and goal line blocks. I could believe that if it were for 1 or 2 games, but we've had 15 matches this season which is a large sample size and it suggests otherwise. 

Yes i agree both keepers had good games but not sure the relevance of that in the argument

I don't bother with XG either. I watch games. I see what I see. Nowhere have I suggested it's all sweetness and light. We do have issues in that we aren't playing to player strengths, yet despite that we keep having 6 to 8 decent cracks at goal each game, forcing their keeper to earn his corn. Sibs isn't a winger. Collo needs to stay central most of the time. I'd play 2 up front, strikers hunt in pairs don't they? So far this season we've seen 352, 532, 4231, 433, 442 at various points in games.  Are we going to press and harry or fall back and wait. Bird came on at HT in the 2 in the 4231 formation at Cheltenham and was ripping them a new one. 20 minutes later we bring Conor H on, he moves to Bird's place in the 2, Bird moves to the #10 position and watches the ball flying over his head for much of the rest of the game. Not much wrong with the players we have, it's how they're being played. 

I'd play just the 1 DM. Smith or Hourihane on current form. An attacking 5 in front of the 1 DM. Give them the freedom to be fluid in their positioning. The only instruction being not to make it a 415 leaving us exposed when we lose possession. 

With regard to the keepers, it's more that when JW makes a good save it's, well... a good save. When the opposition keeper makes a good save, it's because all our players are crap. Why does one and the same situation at opposite ends of the pitch result in a totally different viewpoint? That is something I don't get.

[sage]

2 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

I don't bother with XG either. I watch games. I see what I see. Nowhere have I suggested it's all sweetness and light. We do have issues in that we aren't playing to player strengths, yet despite that we keep having 6 to 8 decent cracks at goal each game, forcing their keeper to earn his corn. Sibs isn't a winger. Collo needs to stay central most of the time. I'd play 2 up front, strikers hunt in pairs don't they? So far this season we've seen 352, 532, 4231, 433, 442 at various points in games.  Are we going to press and harry or fall back and wait. Bird came on at HT in the 2 in the 4231 formation at Cheltenham and was ripping them a new one. 20 minutes later we bring Conor H on, he moves to Bird's place in the 2, Bird moves to the #10 position and watches the ball flying over his head for much of the rest of the game. Not much wrong with the players we have, it's how they're being played. 

I'd play just the 1 DM. Smith or Hourihane on current form. An attacking 5 in front of the 1 DM. Give them the freedom to be fluid in their positioning. The only instruction being not to make it a 415 leaving us exposed when we lose possession. 

With regard to the keepers, it's more that when JW makes a good save it's, well... a good save. When the opposition keeper makes a good save, it's because all our players are crap. Why does one and the same situation at opposite ends of the pitch result in a totally different viewpoint? That is something I don't get.

So 4132

Could you give an example of what this would look like? Naming players

[May Contain Nuts]

 

37 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

I don't bother with XG either. I watch games. I see what I see. Nowhere have I suggested it's all sweetness and light. We do have issues in that we aren't playing to player strengths, yet despite that we keep having 6 to 8 decent cracks at goal each game, forcing their keeper to earn his corn. Sibs isn't a winger. Collo needs to stay central most of the time. I'd play 2 up front, strikers hunt in pairs don't they? So far this season we've seen 352, 532, 4231, 433, 442 at various points in games.  Are we going to press and harry or fall back and wait. Bird came on at HT in the 2 in the 4231 formation at Cheltenham and was ripping them a new one. 20 minutes later we bring Conor H on, he moves to Bird's place in the 2, Bird moves to the #10 position and watches the ball flying over his head for much of the rest of the game. Not much wrong with the players we have, it's how they're being played. 

I'd play just the 1 DM. Smith or Hourihane on current form. An attacking 5 in front of the 1 DM. Give them the freedom to be fluid in their positioning. The only instruction being not to make it a 415 leaving us exposed when we lose possession. 

With regard to the keepers, it's more that when JW makes a good save it's, well... a good save. When the opposition keeper makes a good save, it's because all our players are crap. Why does one and the same situation at opposite ends of the pitch result in a totally different viewpoint? That is something I don't get.

 

This depends on what you call a decent crack at goal.

We most certainly are not creating 6 to 8 opportunities a game where (more often than not) you'd back a player to score. Chances where you say "I can't believe he missed that!" and every replay makes it look easier and easier to have scored. There are maybe 1-3 of those in a match against a team sitting back, 3-5 against teams willing to come onto us.

We're not regularly getting the ball 20-25 yards from goal and in a central position  and testing the keeper from range (we avoid it). We're not putting players through 1 on 1 with the keeper. Most often it's a ball lifted into the box for a player to adjust their body and hit first time on a volley / half volley (while needing to get it past defenders) or a cross for a player (usually marked) to head in. 

The chances we concede are usually easier chances to score than the chances we create, whether the opposition end up hitting it on target / drawing a save or not. Of the 2 standout saves in the last match, Wildsmith's was more difficult to make. Bird's attempt to put the ball in from the byline wide of goal goal goes down as a shot on target, but it wasn't 'a decent crack'.

...but that's where XG comes in? You've posted the number of shots we had on target and the saves the keeper made as proof that we should have scored, but they had better opportunities to score than us in which they didn't hit the target. Nobody should rely on it totally without seeing the evidence before their eyes but it can't be dismissed outright.

I'm also not sure why people would say that we're missing chances because our players are crap, not giving the opposition keeper their due, but I can understand why they're giving full credit to Wildsmith for his.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Chris_Martin]

36 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

I don't bother with XG either. I watch games. I see what I see. Nowhere have I suggested it's all sweetness and light. We do have issues in that we aren't playing to player strengths, yet despite that we keep having 6 to 8 decent cracks at goal each game, forcing their keeper to earn his corn. Sibs isn't a winger. Collo needs to stay central most of the time. I'd play 2 up front, strikers hunt in pairs don't they? So far this season we've seen 352, 532, 4231, 433, 442 at various points in games.  Are we going to press and harry or fall back and wait. Bird came on at HT in the 2 in the 4231 formation at Cheltenham and was ripping them a new one. 20 minutes later we bring Conor H on, he moves to Bird's place in the 2, Bird moves to the #10 position and watches the ball flying over his head for much of the rest of the game. Not much wrong with the players we have, it's how they're being played. 

I'd play just the 1 DM. Smith or Hourihane on current form. An attacking 5 in front of the 1 DM. Give them the freedom to be fluid in their positioning. The only instruction being not to make it a 415 leaving us exposed when we lose possession. 

With regard to the keepers, it's more that when JW makes a good save it's, well... a good save. When the opposition keeper makes a good save, it's because all our players are crap. Why does one and the same situation at opposite ends of the pitch result in a totally different viewpoint? That is something I don't get.

i can remember a few games this season where our only shot on goal has been a penalty...