Will Clowes patience soon run out?

[Tamworthram]

10 hours ago, DCFC Kicks said:

I'm not sure what your argument is. Are we just supposed to accept we're a L1 club now? Do you not think as a club we're underachieving as a L1 club?

My point is that the size of our stadium, the population of our city, the number of clubs in the city and size of our fan base shouldn’t make us feel entitled. I gave a couple of examples of clubs with small stadiums, low populations and relatively small fan bases that have competed at levels you wouldn’t normally expect them to if you base their expectations purely on those metrics.

I never once said we should accept that our future lies in league one. That would be ridiculous. We should aim, expect and strive for promotion but not feel entitled to it.

Whether we’re underachieving is dependent on the squad of players we have at our disposal and the manager/coach to lead them. I think the squad are not performing as well as they should be (largely, but not entirely down to the tactics being coached) but I don’t know if the manager has the ability to do better or not.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

37 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

My point is that the size of our stadium, the population of our city, the number of clubs in the city and size of our fan base shouldn’t make us feel entitled. I gave a couple of examples of clubs with small stadiums, low populations and relatively small fan bases that have competed at levels you wouldn’t normally expect them to if you base their expectations purely on those metrics.

I never once said we should accept that our future lies in league one. That would be ridiculous. We should aim, expect and strive for promotion but not feel entitled to it.

Whether we’re underachieving is dependent on the squad of players we have at our disposal and the manager/coach to lead them. I think the squad are not performing as well as they should be (largely, but not entirely down to the tactics being coached) but I don’t know if the manager has the ability to do better or not.

Derby being in L1 is like Spurs in the Championship. 
 

What do you think their supporters would be like after season 2 in a league their whole club structure doesn’t support? 

[Tamworthram]

7 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

Derby being in L1 is like Spurs in the Championship. 
 

What do you think their supporters would be like after season 2 in a league their whole club structure doesn’t support? 

I think they would feel a sense of entitlement but that doesn’t mean they would be right either so what’s your point?

You have to earn your right to play in a higher division by winning promotion. 

[jimtastic56]

16 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

Derby being in L1 is like Spurs in the Championship. 
 

What do you think their supporters would be like after season 2 in a league their whole club structure doesn’t support? 

If Spurs were in the Championship and didn’t make the play-offs it would be because the players and manager were rubbish . If they didn’t make the playoffs for a second season the fans would go ballistic. Everton will be an interesting one if they go down with a points deduction . What will their fans expect?

[Jimbo Ram]

33 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

Derby being in L1 is like Spurs in the Championship. 
 

What do you think their supporters would be like after season 2 in a league their whole club structure doesn’t support? 

Finances slightly different 😉

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

2 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

I think they would feel a sense of entitlement but that doesn’t mean they would be right either so what’s your point?

You have to earn your right to play in a higher division by winning promotion. 

So what’s your point?? You come across as only you can be right in most of your posts. 
 

My point is that supporters expect to be in the Championship or higher. If anybody has any expectations lower than that they’d support Long Eaton or Alfreton Town. 

Entitlement doesn’t even come into it, it’s an expectation and one that as a business like DCFC we should all expect when paying good money and time to watch. 

 

[Tamworthram]

54 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

So what’s your point?? You come across as only you can be right in most of your posts. 
 

My point is that supporters expect to be in the Championship or higher. If anybody has any expectations lower than that they’d support Long Eaton or Alfreton Town. 

Entitlement doesn’t even come into it, it’s an expectation and one that as a business like DCFC we should all expect when paying good money and time to watch. 

 

Isn’t that what the forum is all about though? We all make comments that we believe to be right whether in agreement or disagreement of what others have said. It may happen occasionally but I reckon it’s rare for any of us (you and me included) to post a comment conceding we were wrong with something we’ve said previously. We all (definitely me included) perhaps need to make an effort to do this more often rather than trying to have the last word. 

I reckon your final paragraph is actually agreeing with what I’ve been saying (I think, without going through all my messages). It shouldn’t be entitlement. Hopes and expectations are another thing altogether.

[DCFC Kicks]

9 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

My point is that the size of our stadium, the population of our city, the number of clubs in the city and size of our fan base shouldn’t make us feel entitled. I gave a couple of examples of clubs with small stadiums, low populations and relatively small fan bases that have competed at levels you wouldn’t normally expect them to if you base their expectations purely on those metrics.

I never once said we should accept that our future lies in league one. That would be ridiculous. We should aim, expect and strive for promotion but not feel entitled to it.

Whether we’re underachieving is dependent on the squad of players we have at our disposal and the manager/coach to lead them. I think the squad are not performing as well as they should be (largely, but not entirely down to the tactics being coached) but I don’t know if the manager has the ability to do better or not.

But doesn't the size of club etc. in part affect the quality of players/managers they can get? 

Small clubs overachieving are different to big clubs underachieving, because of wealthy owners. A big club like ours will always have more financial power over most other clubs due to the bigger fanbase spending more money, especially in L1. Unless they aren't run properly, or have sanctions (which according to Stephen Pearce we are no longer under).

[Raich Carter]

Think a few of you are getting 'big club' mixed-up with 'big budget'. 

Because we have a relatively big fan base, we have more money than those with a smaller fan base. With that extra money we should be doing better than those with less given that, all things being equal, you can sign better players and coaching staff.

Hence the expectation.

So it's not really about entitlement - it's about expectation given the fact (if, indeed, it is a fact) that we have bigger budgets.

But if anyone knows that big money does not equal success, it should be us! It was our DNA whilst Mr Morris had control of the cheque book.

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, Raich Carter said:

Think a few of you are getting 'big club' mixed-up with 'big budget'. 

Because we have a relatively big fan base, we have more money than those with a smaller fan base. With that extra money we should be doing better than those with less given that, all things being equal, you can sign better players and coaching staff.

Hence the expectation.

So it's not really about entitlement - it's about expectation given the fact (if, indeed, it is a fact) that we have bigger budgets.

But if anyone knows that big money does not equal success, it should be us! It was our DNA whilst Mr Morris had control of the cheque book.

Yes 100% agree my disappointment this summer was that there were a number of quite nebulous statements from Warne about what our transfer budget was which ended up with us paying zero quid for any player.

I know that Warne wasn't expected to come out and publically broadcast how much money we had to play with but given the noises coming from club that we were no longer under EFL embargo then I was expecting at least some moderate fees of say 100 to 200k to have been shelled out.

[Chris_Martin]

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Yes 100% agree my disappointment this summer was that there were a number of quite nebulous statements from Warne about what our transfer budget was which ended up with us paying zero quid for any player.

I know that Warne wasn't expected to come out and publically broadcast how much money we had to play with but given the noises coming from club that we were no longer under EFL embargo then I was expecting at least some moderate fees of say 100 to 200k to have been shelled out.

why does it matter? we don't have to spend money just for the sake of it. If your buying a player for 100 to 200k their probably not rated that highly anyway. Look at the type and quality of player rosenior was able to get without spending money. 

Also, what manager at any level comes out and says what their transfer budget is? It just doesn't happen, other teams could use it against you in negotiations.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Chris_Martin

[europia]

3 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Yes 100% agree my disappointment this summer was that there were a number of quite nebulous statements from Warne about what our transfer budget was which ended up with us paying zero quid for any player.

I know that Warne wasn't expected to come out and publically broadcast how much money we had to play with but given the noises coming from club that we were no longer under EFL embargo then I was expecting at least some moderate fees of say 100 to 200k to have been shelled out.

I guess a big consideration when Mr Clowes recruited Warne was that he would be able to do good things on a meagre budget. Picking up a few gems in the lower leagues (inc L1) on affordable wages etc. If it works out, a manager can boast about success achieved via frugal investments.  Of course if things aren't so great, veiled comments about lack of funding are likely to be uttered. 

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, europia said:

I guess a big consideration when Mr Clowes recruited Warne was that he would be able to do good things on a meagre budget. Picking up a few gems in the lower leagues (inc L1) on affordable wages etc. If it works out, a manager can boast about success achieved via frugal investments.  Of course if things aren't so great, veiled comments about lack of funding are likely to be uttered. 

Except Clowes hasn't given him a meagre budget. So how does that fit? I think the greater priority was undoubtedly the 'promotion expert' title. Not even bothered by the 'relegation expert' that went with it! 😄

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, Chris_Martin said:

why does it matter? we don't have to spend money just for the sake of it. If your buying a player for 100 to 200k their probably not rated that highly anyway. Look at the type and quality of player rosenior was able to get without spending money. 

Also, what manager at any level comes out and says what their transfer budget is? It just doesn't happen, other teams could use it against you in negotiations.

In League 1 the number of clubs whom actually did spend money on players of that value aren't in great numbers so the point was all about levering an advantage over other clubs due to our budget. 

I'm not going to reply to the comment regards Rosenoir as I see another thread has become quicky bogged down in that argument. 

[Ghost of Clough]

5 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Yes 100% agree my disappointment this summer was that there were a number of quite nebulous statements from Warne about what our transfer budget was which ended up with us paying zero quid for any player.

I know that Warne wasn't expected to come out and publically broadcast how much money we had to play with but given the noises coming from club that we were no longer under EFL embargo then I was expecting at least some moderate fees of say 100 to 200k to have been shelled out.

We'll end up paying more than that for Fornah, Wilson and Washington upon promotion and/or selling them on

[kevinhectoring]

On 25/10/2023 at 08:23, Tamworthram said:

Just because we have the best stadium and the biggest fan base doesn’t mean we should be winning games or getting promoted.

Ceteris paribus

[Ghost of Clough]

3 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

Truth is, if we had a Jordan Rhodes or a Michael Smith, they’d be sitting on double figures for goals and everything would be rosy.

Quoted from the matchday thread, but I thought my reply would be better suited here. If Warne's answer to "why aren't we doing better" is what you describe, then the simple fix is to sign a forward capable of scoring in January. This would be a far cheaper fix than firing Warne and hiring a new manager.

[Jimbo Ram]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Quoted from the matchday thread, but I thought my reply would be better suited here. If Warne's answer to "why aren't we doing better" is what you describe, then the simple fix is to sign a forward capable of scoring in January. This would be a far cheaper fix than firing Warne and hiring a new manager.

But we did get Washy 😉

[jono]

On 09/10/2023 at 11:59, old tray boy said:

Just because you may not want to discuss the thread does not mean it can be ignored.The Club is being run in a proffesional manner, supporters are relieved ,we need a manager who can deliver success ! Nearly winning ,nearly being promoted is not an option.

We’ll, given that the manager has a 4 year contract with the aim of being in the championship by the time it is concluded, I would suggest to you, as only just over a year has passed, then it IS an option. 

[Alty_Ram]

The debate over 'entitlement' vs 'expectation' is a fairly moot one as what it is reasonable to expect is pretty subjective. That said though, I think that as a bigger club with bigger budget than most of our rivals, that it reasonable to expect us to be challenging at the sharp end of the table. I don't see that as 'entitled', just realistic. If you asked fans of the smaller clubs in our division then I'm sure that they too would expect to see us fighting it out at the sharp end, based on as much as anything else a financial model of 26k+ crowds. That's not to say that we should be running away with it and in any given game we have to earn the points not just turn up and hope they roll over because we're DCFC, cos that simply isn't going to happen.

If we are not in the promotion picture at the end of the season though (playoffs as autos seem unlikely), then that would represent at best standing still (7th) and at worst going backwards (anywhere below 7th) and I'd expect serious questions to be asked of the manager and recruitment team.

None of that though is any criticism whatsoever of David Clowes though. Recruiting a manager with several promotions at this level did not appear like much of a gamble. Occasionally though, a manager or coach just either is or isn't a fit at a particular club. I guess we'll find out later this season.