Should we be patient? If so, how does it improve?

[CBRammette]

39 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

Thing is, it was so predictable. Given none of our midfield are attack minded, we basically had eight defenders and two forwards to start a home game.

Added to that, neither of the two forwards are good in the air. They are so different they will never be a good pairing.

Plan A is to get it wide and ping it into the box. To whom?

If Warne can’t see that’s a flawed plan then I’m seriously worried.

We discussed this in the East Stand before a ball had been kicked. It’s basic stuff.

You did well discussing anything with the deafening music 😂😂

[Tamworthram]

25 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

You did well discussing anything with the deafening music 😂😂

Being the miserable old git that I am, I emailed the SLO after the Wigan game about the music volume akin to being at a loud music concert. I got a reply to say they’d look into it and, whilst I thought it was slightly less loud last night, it was still too much for my delicate ears. Perhaps a few more of us need to email the club? The football is painful enough without having your ears bleed. 😀

[Anag Ram]

44 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

You did well discussing anything with the deafening music 😂😂

We did it in the medium of French mime. Here we are discussing Paul and his team 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Anag Ram
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[LE_Ram]

Going to be a crucial few days for PW and the squad. It's been a largely dreadful start to the season with little positives to take either results-wise or performance-wise and this is the point that they need to consider where we go from here.

I am not quite at the stage of wanting to see him gone as I do want stability, and although I have no inside information on the finances I would presume Clowes would prefer things to work out with PW than go through more flux and expense of signing another manager.

It's painfully obvious that the system at the moment just doesn't suit the players - we can't execute it well enough and as a result we look fragile and nervy at the back, ineffective in transition, and toothless up front. The fans can see it, the pundits can see it, and from the sound of PW's interview yesterday he might (finally) be starting to see it too. 

Something needs to change in the next few matches - imo Paul needs to cut his losses with the current system, switch to 4 at the back, and see how it goes. Couple it with some younger more mobile players mixed in with the experience and playing our best attackers in natural positions (NML has been a passenger so far for me) and we'll be reet. That'll go a long way to winning back over the fanbase which is (rightfully) annoyed with the lack of mobility and tactical nouse we've seen so far.

[niram]

My worry is that Warne is the type of guy to stick with his failing philosophy and die on that hill... 

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, niram said:

My worry is that Warne is the type of guy to stick with his failing philosophy and die on that hill... 

Lol. That's my hope. #COYR

[NottsRam77]

2 hours ago, NottmRAM said:

For me, it boils down to this:

1. Sloppy passing. This is down to the players and is almost always a confidence thing.

2. Too slow in transition. This is a big problem and the main issue. Last night we moved the ball up the pitch with the pace of erosion. Sideways and backwards passing when we've won the ball in defence. Getting the ball up the pitch quickly is key to creating chances. PW came out after a bad perormance last season and said "I don't think my message was clear. I didn't mean NEVER pass backwards or sideways, but it should be a last resort. We should be always looking to pass the ball forward." That message seems to have changed. PW did make a comment last night about "being braver" and my interpretation of that is looking to move the ball up the pitch instead of playing the easy, short, sideways pass.

3. Bad press. "The press" done right is a good tactic but it has to have the whole team working together for it to work. When the press is not done well, it is easy to pass through it (which is exactly what Oxford did last night for their second goal).

4. We need someone in defence to carry the ball out. This creates space further up the pitch and sets up the move.

5. The players last night did not look like a team. From front to back, there was no cohesion. They were not reading the passes or the runs. This is why it is important to keep the same starting 11. Finding that starting 11 is the tricky part when they have had a bad start and the manager is being asked to find an answer pronto.

Also think … and lets be honest we all thought it start of the season

i dont think collins is good enough

the service was crap to him last night but how many times did he win a contested ball up to him.

iv seen much slighter forwards win more ball, make it stick or draw the foul

not using him as the scape goat as he could quite easily be part of the solution with better service i just think we need better up there in terms of cuteness and ability to lead the line… id rather see waggy quite honestly .. but im saying that with waggy of 5 years ago in mind 

so its all a bit of a mess tbh 

Edited August 16, 2023 by NottsRam77

[YorkshireRam]

3 hours ago, Andicis said:

I can see us improving, yes. I think the players are a bit fragile in confidence after a poor start, and that probably isn't helping the errors being made at the back. I think a few positive results not any changes the outlook of the fans, but also probably gives the players confidence to play better football. I don't think the football, or results we are presently seeing is the norm. 

You've been very positive, which I respect, but while confidence is an issue, last night suggested to me it's only the tip of the iceberg (and potentially the direct result of the bigger issues).

For example, Cashin has seemed to struggle adapting to a back 3. I realised last night it's because while Forsyth is playing well at wing-back, he's not got the mobility to help Cash cover the left side of defence properly when he's asked to constantly bomb forward, and since Cashin isn't rapid, he's getting dragged out wide a lot more often than he'd like and getting caught out of position. This isn't confidence, it's the tactical system not suiting the players on the pitch.

The reductionist take on this is that this system is built for faster players that can cover ground quickly, and our current squad lacks pace- that's a bit of a conundrum, and one I don't think is solved by bloody-mindedly persevering with the same formation/system. I'll give Warne time to tinker and find the balance but starting the same XI in the same formation for all 3 of our league games so far when the balance is very clearly wrong is what's concerning me. Adapt or die, and at the minute we're not adapting... 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

...For example, Cashin has seemed to struggle adapting to a back 3. I realised last night it's because while Forsyth is playing well at wing-back, he's not got the mobility to help Cash cover the left side of defence properly when he's asked to constantly bomb forward, and since Cashin isn't rapid, he's getting dragged out wide a lot more often than he'd like and getting caught out of position. This isn't confidence, it's the tactical system not suiting the players on the pitch.

The reductionist take on this is that this system is built for faster players that can cover ground quickly, and our current squad lacks pace- that's a bit of a conundrum, and one I don't think is solved by bloody-mindedly persevering with the same formation/system. I'll give Warne time to tinker and find the balance but starting the same XI in the same formation for all 3 of our league games so far when the balance is very clearly wrong is what's concerning me. Adapt or die, and at the minute we're not adapting... 

But we didn't adapt last season, and Warne views it as a failure. He's bought in 8 signings and we still look worse than last season. That's because of him, why should we be patient? What do you think a Derby team will look like if we are patient?

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

9 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Our circumstances - trying to rehabilitate after being in financial ruin - dictate the level of patience though, and let’s be honest, we’re in no position to be rash.

Ripping up Warne’s contract will cost money. Dismissing his backroom staff will cost money. Appointing a new manager and his coaching team will cost money. Paying compensation if they are contracted will cost money. Bringing in players for the new manager will cost money.

Money we seemingly don’t have or if we do, we are either not prepared or not permitted to spend it. So which managers would be queuing up to replace Warne in any case?

Warne has been in the job for less than 12 months. He has three years left on a four year contract. He is not getting it right at the moment, that’s plain to see, but surely Clowes will be thinking: maybe things will look different in 20-30 games?

We have to stay calm and Warne has to step up and show what he can do. It’s a 46 game season, not a 4 game season, after all.

Yep. Don’t expect any of that is in the business plan for this season agreed with the EFL

[duncanjwitham]

21 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

For example, Cashin has seemed to struggle adapting to a back 3. I realised last night it's because while Forsyth is playing well at wing-back, he's not got the mobility to help Cash cover the left side of defence properly when he's asked to constantly bomb forward, and since Cashin isn't rapid, he's getting dragged out wide a lot more often than he'd like and getting caught out of position. This isn't confidence, it's the tactical system not suiting the players on the pitch.

It's not even really to do with Forsyth.  Those wide centre half positions are not just centre halves that stand 10 yards wider.  You can't just chuck any old centre half there and get away with it.  They're absolutely as specialised a position as wingback is in this system.  They're basically hybrid centre-half/fullbacks, and if the player cannot happily play as both a central defender and a fullback in a flat back 4, they aren't going to be able to play that wide role in a back 3 properly.  The "coming wide to cover in behind the wingback" isn't a bug due to Forsyth, it's literally a feature of the position.  It's why England have played the likes of Gary Neville, Kyle Walker, Stuart Pearce in those roles.

[YorkshireRam]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

But we didn't adapt last season, and Warne views it as a failure. He's bought in 8 signings and we still look worse than last season. That's because of him, why should we be patient? What do you think a Derby team will look like if we are patient?

We sort of did when he reverted to a back 4, despite not having fullbacks. I think one big issue now is that the recruitment has been focused on 5 at the back so switching formation now would be admitting those signings are wastes. This may be mitigated by the fact we don't have any fully fit wing-backs now Ward and Wilson are injured and Elder isn't match fit yet.

I saw a Rotherham fan say they tended to have poor starts to their season under Warne, only winning something like 1 of the first 4 (don't quote me on this). Plus since it's a radical change to both playing style AND tactical system, there may be an argument the team just needs more time to gel and fix the glaring issues we've seen recently. 

After last night, I wouldn't say anyone's wrong for not being patient because we're not showing enough signs of improvement for my liking. But, that's not to say we can't come good with time. I'm feeling hugely disillusioned right now. We look really vulnerable defensively despite having an extra man at the back, the midfield balance STILL hasn't been rectified despite this being glaringly obvious since the start of Warne's tenure, and we haven't got enough variety in attack. A lot of work to do. 

[YorkshireRam]

20 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

It's not even really to do with Forsyth.  Those wide centre half positions are not just centre halves that stand 10 yards wider.  You can't just chuck any old centre half there and get away with it.  They're absolutely as specialised a position as wingback is in this system.  They're basically hybrid centre-half/fullbacks, and if the player cannot happily play as both a central defender and a fullback in a flat back 4, they aren't going to be able to play that wide role in a back 3 properly.  The "coming wide to cover in behind the wingback" isn't a bug due to Forsyth, it's literally a feature of the position.  It's why England have played the likes of Gary Neville, Kyle Walker, Stuart Pearce in those roles.

Nail on the head. We're essentially back to playing square pegs in round holes. This is Warne's system, why did we sign 30+ year old cloggers to play a position that requires mobility? Can't wrap my head around it.

[RoyMac5]

45 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

After last night, I wouldn't say anyone's wrong for not being patient because we're not showing enough signs of improvement for my liking. But, that's not to say we can't come good with time. I'm feeling hugely disillusioned right now. We look really vulnerable defensively despite having an extra man at the back, the midfield balance STILL hasn't been rectified despite this being glaringly obvious since the start of Warne's tenure, and we haven't got enough variety in attack. A lot of work to do. 

How much time and just as importantly now (I said this before) what's the team going to look like?

[IlsonDerby]

15 hours ago, Andicis said:

It's always hard to pick out positives after a s*** performance, and it'll be the same for any other manager. We've had a shaky start and those early mistakes have made our defenders look like nervous wrecks which doesn't help matters. My point is overall we've a lengthy history of lurching from one manager to the next, changing the playstyle every time and then having to replace all of the old manager's players and losing money on all of them. The only thing we haven't actually tried is being patient for once. 

Didn’t two of those managers get poached by Stoke and Chelsea? So only sacked Mac, Clement and Pearson in that time with Cocu agreeing to leave by mutual consent? 

[NottmRAM]

2 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

Also think … and lets be honest we all thought it start of the season

i dont think collins is good enough

the service was crap to him last night but how many times did he win a contested ball up to him.

iv seen much slighter forwards win more ball, make it stick or draw the foul

not using him as the scape goat as he could quite easily be part of the solution with better service i just think we need better up there in terms of cuteness and ability to lead the line… id rather see waggy quite honestly .. but im saying that with waggy of 5 years ago in mind 

so its all a bit of a mess tbh 

Waggy can create as well as score but I think we're crying out for a Jack Marriot type.

[RadioactiveWaste]

How does it improve?

1. Get better at doing the things warne wants them to do.

As with everything in life there's being bad at something and there's doing the wrong thing. At the moment they are so bad at it, it has to be wrong.

2. Change things to be closer to what the players feel natural doing.

The problem is with trust and belief - I don't think the players have the trust and belief to make option 1 work.

I know learning in the heat of battle isn't ideal and there's unlikely to be enough easy wins to give the headroom for that.

So, option 2 it is. It feels like they need to change for the changes sake, going out to do what's been rancid in our previous games isn't going to work because it seems clear the players don't believe it'll work.

It's all feeling very Nigel Pearson.

[MadAmster]

Mark players, not zones.

[I am Ram]

 Crap football/tactics, new squad recruitment appears so bad, Fozzy is our best player, manager now talking in riddles in after match interviews. I never thought i'd say this but i can't wait for an international break.

[Ramarena]

I get the feeling if he goes it will be relatively soon.

This isn’t one of those slowly degrading and eventually get the sack situations, unless DC really can’t afford to get rid.

This is one of those situations where things seem to be falling apart quite rapidly and the longer it goes on, the worse it gets.

Personally I think if he’s hasn’t improved performances/results in the next 5 games, then it’s pretty much done and there’s no coming back.