Summer Rumour Mill

[rammieib]

30 minutes ago, simmoram1995 said:

Derbys biggest problem is not selling players at the right time 

 

from memory 

hulse 4m- Middlesbrough ended up going to qpr for 200k

martin I think was wanted for somewhere between 3-5m ended up with multiple loans and free 

knight - 5-7m a few seasons ago - now be lucky to get 2m +

 But then there would be anger for selling our best players.

Its a no win situation.

[RoyMac5]

24 minutes ago, S8TY said:

I predict we will go up this season as div3 looks weak ...

I don’t think we need to keep both 

I agree that we should go up. So how much difference between selling now and selling next season, or might they even be useful squad players compared to the financial payback? You can tell what kind of player say Dack or a.n.other mid-20 yr old is but can you tell me what kind of a player Bird or Knight will be in mid-20s? For me the difference in monetary values is worth the gamble to wait and see how good they get (if they want to stay that is). 

[InstaRam]

45 minutes ago, rammieib said:

 But then there would be anger for selling our best players.

Its a no win situation.

Guess one important factor also is how good replacements you would get. Let's just say that recruiting maybe not been bulls eye for us for some time (latest years excluded). If we would be confident in our scouting/recruiting departements then selling should be a priority to be able to reinvest. Otherwise you need to hold on to what you already got with both hands I guess. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by InstaRam

[S8TY]

37 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I agree that we should go up. So how much difference between selling now and selling next season, or might they even be useful squad players compared to the financial payback? You can tell what kind of player say Dack or a.n.other mid-20 yr old is but can you tell me what kind of a player Bird or Knight will be in mid-20s? For me the difference in monetary values is worth the gamble to wait and see how good they get (if they want to stay that is). 

Yes you may well be right but my assumption was based on the fact selling one and getting the right players may outweigh keeping both with the hope they’re going to get better 

what I don’t see happening is either turning into a goal scoring midfielder and that’s the point 

[RoyMac5]

C'mon someone must have been spotted down B&Q or Bubbles recently?! 😄

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, S8TY said:

To generate a meaningful rebuild where we can spend a bit of money on transfer fees and wages I very much suspect means losing Bielik and one or both of Knight and Bird 

as much as they’re  good players I do think the rebuild if the money is spent wisely could benefit us more 

Knight is so industrious we all know but he did not stand out in a lot of games last season 

Bird another good player but doesn’t impose himself enough 

both good players but I think if we spend the money correctly it might be best 

what both don’t do is score enough goals that’s a fact and the team in general need to be scoring more from midfield 

I’m not a massive Bradley Dack fan but he regularly scored 15+ goals from mid for Gillingham in league1 when my lad was there as an academy player 

that sort of input would bridge the gap between 7th and top 2 

 

You're regurgitating the same old rubbish as many others. 

In terms of end product, Bird's end product is exactly what you expect from a holding mid in a 3 man midfield.
From open play, he was only 4 goal contributions behind Hourihane (1 more assist) despite playing as the deeper of the two.
A lot of people keep suggesting Brannagan due to his end product, yet 6 of his goals and 1 assist came from set pieces. He has fewer open play contributions than Bird (8) despite playing a role further up the pitch closer to Hourihane's. Wing is another one - 7 out of his 14 contributions came from set pieces.

Bird matched Plymouth's best CM, whilst only Morsy bettered him from Ipswich's squad (10),

I've also gone into great detail to show out 2 man midfield of Bird and Hourihane matched anything Plymouth and Ipswich had last season. Both in terms of goals/assists and defensive contributions. That's before we factor in the other midfielders who contributed when Bird and/or Hourihane weren't on the field.

[i-Ram]

32 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

C'mon someone must have been spotted down B&Q or Bubbles recently?! 😄

@Boycieat the first and @sageat the second. Both trying to produce impressive erections. Sage was offered a refund. Watch him deny it.

[i-Ram]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You're regurgitating the same old rubbish as many others. 

In terms of end product, Bird's end product is exactly what you expect from a holding mid in a 3 man midfield.
From open play, he was only 4 goal contributions behind Hourihane (1 more assist) despite playing as the deeper of the two.
A lot of people keep suggesting Brannagan due to his end product, yet 6 of his goals and 1 assist came from set pieces. He has fewer open play contributions than Bird (8) despite playing a role further up the pitch closer to Hourihane's. Wing is another one - 7 out of his 14 contributions came from set pieces.

Bird matched Plymouth's best CM, whilst only Morsy bettered him from Ipswich's squad (10),

I've also gone into great detail to show out 2 man midfield of Bird and Hourihane matched anything Plymouth and Ipswich had last season. Both in terms of goals/assists and defensive contributions. That's before we factor in the other midfielders who contributed when Bird and/or Hourihane weren't on the field.

Bird would be sorely missed, and his true value to the team will only be appreciated by many after he has gone. Much more important to keep than Knight in my opinion.

[Wignall12]

32 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Bird would be sorely missed, and his true value to the team will only be appreciated by many after he has gone. Much more important to keep than Knight in my opinion.

Much like a certain Mr McGovern 

[duncanjwitham]

34 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You're regurgitating the same old rubbish as many others. 

In terms of end product, Bird's end product is exactly what you expect from a holding mid in a 3 man midfield.
From open play, he was only 4 goal contributions behind Hourihane (1 more assist) despite playing as the deeper of the two.
A lot of people keep suggesting Brannagan due to his end product, yet 6 of his goals and 1 assist came from set pieces. He has fewer open play contributions than Bird (8) despite playing a role further up the pitch closer to Hourihane's. Wing is another one - 7 out of his 14 contributions came from set pieces.

Bird matched Plymouth's best CM, whilst only Morsy bettered him from Ipswich's squad (10),

I've also gone into great detail to show out 2 man midfield of Bird and Hourihane matched anything Plymouth and Ipswich had last season. Both in terms of goals/assists and defensive contributions. That's before we factor in the other midfielders who contributed when Bird and/or Hourihane weren't on the field.

Good post.

The other thing I'd say is, if you are the kind of team that wants to move the ball forward quickly (which is what Warne openly says he wants his teams to do), rather than build up slowly through the thirds, you are going to get less goals from your midfielders.  The game gets stretched a lot more, there's a lot more vertical distance between your players, and you get less of the types of situations where forwards are laying the ball off for midfielders to score goals.  

If you look back over Warne's seasons at Rotherham, the goal totals are always dominated by forwards.  You'll maybe see one midfielder taking a bunch of set-pieces/penalties and getting a decent goal return, but you don't really see lots of midfielders (or even wingbacks) getting in the 8-10 goals range in the same season.

[sage]

55 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

@Boycieat the first and @sageat the second. Both trying to produce impressive erections. Sage was offered a refund. Watch him deny it.

I could say which mod I picked up from outside Bubbles once, emerging with a leaflet in his hand. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by sage

[i-Ram]

12 minutes ago, sage said:

I could say which mod I picked up from outside Bubbles once, emerging with a leaflet in his hand. 

[Ghost of Clough]

38 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Good post.

The other thing I'd say is, if you are the kind of team that wants to move the ball forward quickly (which is what Warne openly says he wants his teams to do), rather than build up slowly through the thirds, you are going to get less goals from your midfielders.  The game gets stretched a lot more, there's a lot more vertical distance between your players, and you get less of the types of situations where forwards are laying the ball off for midfielders to score goals.  

If you look back over Warne's seasons at Rotherham, the goal totals are always dominated by forwards.  You'll maybe see one midfielder taking a bunch of set-pieces/penalties and getting a decent goal return, but you don't really see lots of midfielders (or even wingbacks) getting in the 8-10 goals range in the same season.

The distribution of goals in Warne's side varied. In 2 out of his 3 seasons in the Championship, his forwards contributed to a similar amount of goals as his forwards. In all other seasons, the forwards doubled the tally of the midfielders.

I've only used the Transfermarkt stated positions for most players rather than positions played (except for Smith and Forsyth), so Knight's and Sibley's tallies were put down as CMs, Mendez-Laing and Barkhuizen grouped with the forwards, etc... However, our distribution last season was fairly similar to Rotherham in 21/22. 

[S8TY]

Rather than keep on throwing stats about do you actually think Bird is going to be the main player in midfield for us ?

i watch every game like you and he goes missing at times and needs to look forward at times also 

I’m not slagging Bird off or Knight even what I’m saying is I don’t think both of them contribute enough attacking wise including goals …not regurgitating anything …it’s an opinion based on what I see with and without the ball 

if I had to generate funds one of Bird or Knight would go 

I personally would’nt pay any more than 1.5m for either that’s just my view 

i do think that Bird has more potential to become a better midfielder than Knight if he were to look forward more I don’t think he’s a CDM even if he’s played there 

[sage]

1 minute ago, S8TY said:

Rather than keep on throwing stats about do you actually think Bird is going to be the main player in midfield for us ?

i watch every game like you and he goes missing at times and needs to look forward at times also 

I’m not slagging Bird off or Knight even what I’m saying is I don’t think both of them contribute enough attacking wise including goals …not regurgitating anything …it’s an opinion based on what I see with and without the ball 

if I had to generate funds one of Bird or Knight would go 

I personally would’nt pay any more than 1.5m for either that’s just my view 

i do think that Bird has more potential to become a better midfielder than Knight if he were to look forward more I don’t think he’s a CDM even if he’s played there 

What makes a good CDM?

[duncanjwitham]

34 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The distribution of goals in Warne's side varied. In 2 out of his 3 seasons in the Championship, his forwards contributed to a similar amount of goals as his forwards. In all other seasons, the forwards doubled the tally of the midfielders.

I've only used the Transfermarkt stated positions for most players rather than positions played (except for Smith and Forsyth), so Knight's and Sibley's tallies were put down as CMs, Mendez-Laing and Barkhuizen grouped with the forwards, etc... However, our distribution last season was fairly similar to Rotherham in 21/22. 

Those stats don't completely tally with what I looked at.  I'm going off WhoScored, which does factor in what positions they actually played, but doesn't have any data for 2017/18.  I'm also using league stats only (because WhoScored separates the cups out).  In the 5 seasons I looked at, only 2 midfielders scored 5 or more from open play.  The are another 4 players who hit that mark if you include set pieces, but that's not really that relevant if we're talking about style of play.  Last season, only Hourihane did for us.

Warne's teams just don't seem to produce midfielders that score lots of goals, unless they take a lot of set pieces/penalties.

[Wignall12]

7 minutes ago, sage said:

What makes a good CDM?

For me Cadbury Dairy Milk needs nuts and raisins in it 😇

[duncanjwitham]

10 minutes ago, S8TY said:

Rather than keep on throwing stats about do you actually think Bird is going to be the main player in midfield for us ?

Should he be?  Yes

Is he capable of being? Yes

Will he be with Warne in charge? No.

[Nuwtfly]

Shocked by the amount of negativity towards Bird. I think he’s one of the most cultured and technically gifted players we’ve produced in years and would much rather hold onto him over Knight or Sibley.

Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll see the best of him under PW; he seems to favour the Bryson/Knight type of midfielder from what I’ve seen so far. My only hope for him in the immediate is that Warne can give him the Barlaser treatment as the 1 in a 3-1-4-2

[Caerphilly Ram]

7 minutes ago, Wignall12 said:

For me Cadbury Dairy Milk needs nuts and raisins in it 😇