Unsung NHS Heroes (potentially polical depending on how you read it)

[Archied]

49 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I think this reflects most people's thinking, a point I've myself made, but I see no 'adulation and worship'. During Covid, especially the early variants, health workers were asked to take huge risks to their own wellbeing and that of the partners and children they returned to of an evening and were, in my opinion, rightly lauded for doing so. Fast forward to the present and the issues we are seeing with healthcare delivery, working conditions, waiting times for appointments and so on and I would say with some conviction that the vast majority understand the challenges and deficiencies outlined by @Ewe Ram By and large, people are not as stupid as some suppose.

As for the specifics of this thread, @bimmerman has written a post expressing his gratitude for the treatments and professionalism of those NHS staff who provided care for him when he needed it. I see no reason for anyone, a few posts later, to be introducing the notion that 'we' need to stop 'worshipping' the NHS. Folk can pretend otherwise, but it's clear to me what the context of the post was, hence the reaction it received. Being in full support of a system that provides free healthcare to those who need it whether they are rich, poor or anything in between, has nothing to do with blind adulation. That's a construct and not a terribly elegant one at that. The conversation we ought to be having, as you yourself point out, is how do we mend what is broken and who is best placed to do it, this is clear, but trying to find reasons to snidely criticise or alter the thinking of those who support the NHS and it's workforce serves literally no useful purpose other than to illustrate the divides that allowed it to fall into 'disrepair' in the first place.

 

I reckon we are all pretty much on the same page in terms of any society that claims to be decent has to have free healthcare at point of delivery that gives care to all no matter they’re financial position, that’s what we worship and rightly so but it’s how to get that,

I also look at how the nhs has expanded since it’s beginning, does it spend huge amounts now beyond keeping us alive and healthy , stuff like IVF and multiple other issues that perhaps need to be reviewed in terms of we seem to be struggling to provide the basic essential health system it started out as 

[Ewe Ram]

2 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Sadly it’s not just in hospitals. I worked in banking for many years and helped roll out a new complaints handling process several years ago. I know what you’re all thinking  “the banks don’t deserve any sympathy and can’t be compared with the health service” so there’s no need to say it but, whilst I generally agree with this view, the principle is still the same. Some of the trivial complaints we had to process in a particular FCA compliant way was insane and complaint handling became an industry in itself.

I know. Yet we have colleagues abused, threatened and treated like dirt. The entitlement of people astounds me 

[Carl Sagan]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

The bureaucracy thing seems to be less of an issue that was banged on about during the last but one government's attitude. But I'm sure there's savings still to be made. 

But most importantly, it needs funding. And that likely requires more taxation. Health care is costly at the top end. An aging population requires more care. And much of the care could be better focused on social care rather than in hospitals, if we got the thinking right. 

It needs some radical overhaul, but I get nervous when the current government suggests anything that contains the two words "radical" and "NHS". I don't trust them one bit.

Thanks. I do think the bureaucracy is an issue because overall funding levels are quite high/strong, but so much more than any other country is squandered on the vast levels of management. 

Then, one of my brothers and all my sisters work in the NHS on the nursing side. On the wards, one of my sisters is normally the only permanent staff alongside a load of agency nurses who are paid loads more, have no idea what to do and will have no comeback (as opposed to my sis) if anything goes wrong. This cannot continue. So I do think it needs radical reform. There's no loads more I could say about the broken GP system generally and refusal to see patients in person, and the inadequacy of care homes so people have nowhere else to go. 

Sadly I don't trust any of the parties to deliver on it or other things, and can't imagine voting for any of them next time around. It's a mess. I had lunch with a (Lib Dem) MP where we talked about it a lot (this person's specialist research area) and they said almost every western nation has effectively free healthcare and much better healthcare outcomes, but the crazed reverence in which the NHS is held makes improving on it politically impossible. Which is where I came in...

[Comrade 86]

24 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

...but the crazed reverence in which the NHS is held makes improving on it politically impossible.

And he's off again.

55 minutes ago, Ewe Ram said:

I know. Yet we have colleagues abused, threatened and treated like dirt.

From someone who actually works for the NHS.

Seems rather at odds with your 'crazed reverence' hyperbole, but I suppose we should expect little else.

[1of4]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

I also look at how the nhs has expanded since it’s beginning, does it spend huge amounts now beyond keeping us alive and healthy , stuff like IVF and multiple other issues that perhaps need to be reviewed in terms of we seem to be struggling to provide the basic essential health system it started out as 

What should we deem basic essential health care? 

Should we leave the drunk slumped on the floor? What about the person injured playing sport? Or the injured inexperienced DIYer?

Should these people be charged to gain access to treatment by an essential health care system?

 

Should we ignore treatments that aren't deemed essential but could have a secondary affect to the patient's well being? 

What should we tell the person that's lost a limb, the skin cancer patients that may need a prosthetic arm, leg, ear or nose? Sorry mate we've saved your life, you'll need to pay for the prosthetic yourself

As for stuff like IFV. I'm aware of couples who's mental well being have been improved due to the success of IFV. What are we actually treating the inability to get pregnant, the patient's well being or both

As I said at the start what is deemed essential?

[Archied]

51 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

What should we deem basic essential health care? 

Should we leave the drunk slumped on the floor? What about the person injured playing sport? Or the injured inexperienced DIYer?

Should these people be charged to gain access to treatment by an essential health care system?

 

Should we ignore treatments that aren't deemed essential but could have a secondary affect to the patient's well being? 

What should we tell the person that's lost a limb, the skin cancer patients that may need a prosthetic arm, leg, ear or nose? Sorry mate we've saved your life, you'll need to pay for the prosthetic yourself

As for stuff like IFV. I'm aware of couples who's mental well being have been improved due to the success of IFV. What are we actually treating the inability to get pregnant, the patient's well being or both

As I said at the start what is deemed essential?

Well whoopi dooo let’s let people die whilst we improve couples mental well being , this is why we are in the mess we are in 

[Mucker1884]

Quote

Unsung NHS Heroes (potentially polical depending on how you read it)

Well, the way I'm reading this thread, I'd say it's jam packed with polics!  

[1of4]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Well whoopi dooo let’s let people die whilst we improve couples mental well being , this is why we are in the mess we are in 

Who wants to let people die? The question I asked was what do we class as essential health care?

You apparently have decided what is and isn't an essential treatment that should be provided by the NHS.

Just to clarify things, is treating the drunk slumped on the ground an essential service or should we  do a whoopi do when they are choking on their own vomit?

Should we be telling cancer patients we won't be providing any cosmetic aftercare, but don't worry how you look just be thankful you're alive?

Edited February 16, 2023 by 1of4

[Archied]

14 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Who wants to let people die? The question I asked was what do we class as essential health care?

You apparently have decided what is and isn't an essential treatment that should be provided by the NHS.

Just to clarify things, is treating the drunk slumped on the ground an essential service or should we  do a whoopi do when they are choking on their own vomit?

Should we be telling cancer patients we won't be providing any cosmetic aftercare, but don't worry how you look just be thankful your alive?

Same old same old 

no and no 

we have personal experience of a young lady we know who being rather less endowed was given breast implants on the NHS by badgering that it was causing her mental health problem ,,,, wrong 

woman losing breasts through Brest cancer having reconstructive surgery,,,, right 

ivf on the nhs ,,,, wrong 

now if and or when we have an NHS that is not in constant crisis with money time and staff not stretched to the limit then perhaps we can  do that sort of stuff but it’s a no for me right now

who wants to let people die you say ,,,,, people are dieing but let’s talk about couple mental well being being improved , you crack on 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Archied

[angieram]

7 minutes ago, Archied said:

Same old same old 

no and no 

we have personal experience of a young lady we know who being rather less endowed was given breast implants on the NHS by badgering that it was causing her mental health problem ,,,, wrong 

woman losing breasts through Brest cancer having reconstructive surgery,,,, right 

ivf on the nhs ,,,, wrong 

now if and or when we have an NHS that is not in constant crisis with money time and staff not stretched to the limit then perhaps we can  do that sort of stuff but it’s a no for me right now

who wants to let people die you say ,,,,, people are dieing but let’s talk about couple mental well being being improved , you crack on 

 

Why is IVF on the NHS wrong? I needed IVF to have any chance of conceiving when in my early 30s, but lived the wrong side of a county boundary so would have had to pay to have it. It was a lot of money at the time. We couldn't afford it, hence I'm childless. 

I've lived with that for many years and come to accept it, but it was horrible.

Would I want  others to go through that? No. 

[Archied]

22 minutes ago, angieram said:

Why is IVF on the NHS wrong? I needed IVF to have any chance of conceiving when in my early 30s, but lived the wrong side of a county boundary so would have had to pay to have it. It was a lot of money at the time. We couldn't afford it, hence I'm childless. 

I've lived with that for many years and come to accept it, but it was horrible.

Would I want  others to go through that? No. 

Firstly it’s very sad that some cannot have children naturally, even more sad is that if you live in one area you get ivf on NHS but not in others which actually in my view makes my point regards prioritising finance , 

please don’t take what I’m going to as heartless because it really isn’t but the truth is most of us have to bear and go things that are horrible and we learn to accept and from the posts I see you post you appear to be a fairly balanced happy person with a full ish life ,

I believe the NHS needs reform and for me that means in every aspect because at the moment and for quite some time it is unable to save lives in the way it was designed to do ??‍♂️

[Ramarena]

9 hours ago, Archied said:

Consider yourself lucky , there’s masses ( probably the majority of the country ) cannot see where and how that change comes with this rotten to the core two party system, people vote against what they want least rather than any option on voting for what they want , I don’t want the tories any more but labour fill me with horror too??‍♂️

Slightly off topic, but changing the voting system and changing the appointment and make up of the second chamber would be a start. 

Bringing it back to the NHS, it would be nice if we could find a way to de-politicise it and stop political meddling. Finding a way to run it in the interest's of the people, not the politicians, is key to it's survival and improvement. 

[1of4]

34 minutes ago, Archied said:

Same old same old 

no and no 

we have personal experience of a young lady we know who being rather less endowed was given breast implants on the badgering that it was causing her mental health problem ,,,, wrong 

woman losing breasts through Brest cancer having reconstructive surgery,,,, right 

ivf on the nhs ,,,, wrong 

now if and or when we have an NHS that is not in constant crisis with money time and staff not stretched to the limit then perhaps we can  do that sort of stuff but it’s a no for me right now

 

Not sure what is implied with the sentence Same old same old. As far has I can recall there hasn't been any earlier discussions on what an essential health system looks like. So whats the same and whats old?

Is the first no, a no to treating drunks and thus the possibility of them dying, with the second no, being that cancer patients should be getting aftercare cosmetic treatment? Hopefully you can clarify this, as I wouldn't want to imply you'd be in favour of anyone's death.

 

 On a lighter note, the we in your post, is this use of we a royal we.  Or are you claiming  there is a young lady who's breasts we both have had personal experience of. If it's the latter, could you please not spread it around as I wouldn't like my wife to gain access to this information.

[Archied]

9 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Not sure what is implied with the sentence Same old same old. As far has I can recall there hasn't been any earlier discussions on what an essential health system looks like. So whats the same and whats old?

Is the first no, a no to treating drunks and thus the possibility of them dying, with the second no, being that cancer patients should be getting aftercare cosmetic treatment? Hopefully you can clarify this, as I wouldn't want to imply you'd be in favour of anyone's death.

 

 On a lighter note, the we in your post, is this use of we a royal we.  Or are you claiming  there is a young lady who's breasts we both have had personal experience of. If it's the latter, could you please not spread it around as I wouldn't like my wife to gain access to this information.

No we do not leave a drunk to choke

no we do not refuse reconstructive surgery to the cancer patient 

i made that clear , 

9 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Not sure what is implied with the sentence Same old same old. As far has I can recall there hasn't been any earlier discussions on what an essential health system looks like. So whats the same and whats old?

Is the first no, a no to treating drunks and thus the possibility of them dying, with the second no, being that cancer patients should be getting aftercare cosmetic treatment? Hopefully you can clarify this, as I wouldn't want to imply you'd be in favour of anyone's death.

 

 On a lighter note, the we in your post, is this use of we a royal we.  Or are you claiming  there is a young lady who's breasts we both have had personal experience of. If it's the latter, could you please not spread it around as I wouldn't like my wife to gain access to this information.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Archied

[Crewton]

When the NHS kicked off in 1948, all dentistry was free. Demand for false teeth in particular was so high, it would have bankrupt the country, so Atlee's government reluctantly had to limit what dentistry would be free and what would have to be paid for. Nye Bevan resigned over this, but Atlee had little choice. 

There is, therefore, a precedent for what @Archiedis suggesting, and I have some sympathy for that view. I wouldn't want to be the person deciding what is free and what isn't, but it's true that the NHS offers far more "elective" treatments than it was initially designed for. We have a simple choice : pay more through tax, or pay for some treatments that are "elective".

A little girl got lifesaving gene therapy treatment the other day. It cost £3m, but I'd say it was worth every penny. I'm happy to pay more through whatever method to ensure little girls like her are saved, because I can afford to, but I know not everyone is able or wishes to. I don't really envy politicians who have to solve that conundrum. 

[Archied]

21 minutes ago, Crewton said:

When the NHS kicked off in 1948, all dentistry was free. Demand for false teeth in particular was so high, it would have bankrupt the country, so Atlee's government reluctantly had to limit what dentistry would be free and what would have to be paid for. Nye Bevan resigned over this, but Atlee had little choice. 

There is, therefore, a precedent for what @Archiedis suggesting, and I have some sympathy for that view. I wouldn't want to be the person deciding what is free and what isn't, but it's true that the NHS offers far more "elective" treatments than it was initially designed for. We have a simple choice : pay more through tax, or pay for some treatments that are "elective".

A little girl got lifesaving gene therapy treatment the other day. It cost £3m, but I'd say it was worth every penny. I'm happy to pay more through whatever method to ensure little girls like her are saved, because I can afford to, but I know not everyone is able or wishes to. I don't really envy politicians who have to solve that conundrum. 

I agree , for me the basic is we don’t live in a society where we stand by and let a little girl die based on finance ( or anyone for that matter ) , on stuff like IVF and elective treatments I would love it if we could do everything for free on the NHS but until we have real change in the way we are as humans it’s always going to come down to choices, we have for instance a war in Ukraine that nobody is in any rush to try to find peace so we spend billions on sending arms , arming ourselves further and let’s be honest somebody somewhere is always making a mint off peoples taxes to fund it , am I all soppy John Lennon on that view? Maybe but I would love for that money to be spent on someone like @angieramto have been able to have IVF , as a species our priorities are all wrong and until that changes we are all going to go round in circles chasing our tails blaming this Tory government, that Tory government, this Labour government that Labour government .

that’s my idealistic soppy old sod post for today ??‍♂️

[Bob The Badger]

On 15/02/2023 at 15:08, G STAR RAM said:

How can you have decided who you are voting for, without knowing (a) what is in their manifesto (b) who would be in charge of running the country?

I find this sort of stance bizarre and one of the major problems with our country.

I find it utterly bizarre that anybody who cares about our health service would consider voting for a party that has systematically dismantled it over a sustained period of time.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The sad fact of life is that if all corporations and the very wealthy were not able to devise legal ways around paying their fair share of tax, we wouldn't be in this mess.

I can't for the life of me fathom why anyone who is wealthy beyond imagination, still wants to avoid paying what they really owe? And don't even get me started on tax havens.

 

[PistoldPete]

On 16/02/2023 at 07:47, GboroRam said:

I do get what @Carl Saganis saying and strangely I agree with much of it. I wouldn't say it's a form of worship but we've got ourselves into a difficult place with regards to the NHS. I fully accept it has to change because it is failing. It's failing on a number of fronts. But politically, it feels like failure is being used to justify changes which will bring about more private hands dipping into a public service. One side refuses to hear criticism, the other wants to talk about changes that scare me. 

The NHS isn't as good as we'd like to tell ourselves. It's failing when compared to other countries. But we have to keep telling everyone that it's the best in the world. It isn't. 

It needs more joined up thinking, linking social care and medical care. 

People need to stop getting shitfaced and doing idiotic things that end up with them in A&E. 

We need to keep the expensive resources we train, rather than let them leave to go to the US or Australia for the money, unlike many currently do. 

The bureaucracy thing seems to be less of an issue that was banged on about during the last but one government's attitude. But I'm sure there's savings still to be made. 

But most importantly, it needs funding. And that likely requires more taxation. Health care is costly at the top end. An aging population requires more care. And much of the care could be better focused on social care rather than in hospitals, if we got the thinking right. 

It needs some radical overhaul, but I get nervous when the current government suggests anything that contains the two words "radical" and "NHS". I don't trust them one bit. 

What you are saying is that the NHS is broken and that funding is also an issue , both true. Problem is that if you provide more funding for a broken system you risk throwing good money after bad.   

I don't have the answers I'm afraid. I would like us to retain the principle of healthcare being free at point of use. Maybe introduce compulsory private healthcare insurance cover for employees of large Companies, which would take the strain away from the NHS without disadvantaging those who cannot afford to pay . And, as you say fix social care. Both measures would relieve pressure on the NHS.     

[Stive Pesley]

13 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Maybe introduce compulsory private healthcare insurance cover for employees of large Companies

It wasn't so long ago that most decent companies offered private healthcare as part of their package to attract employees, but weirdly rampant capitalism has dulled their enthusiasm for treating their employees like anything other than a necessary evil. They can't even give us payrises so why would they give us free private healthcare