Is Mel still 'pulling the strings'?

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

I am not lauding Morris for anything. Just saying that to describe it as "walking away" is a distortion of the facts. Appointment of administrators is an appointment of people whose statutory duty is to act in the interests of the creditors, and to try and get a better deal for them than the alternative. It is not insulting to the unescured creditors to say that.. because the unescured creditors could get nothing at all if the club went into liquidation.

And as iram says none of us know how wealthy Morris is so just saying he should pay off £56 million of debt makes it sound easy. None of us know whether that is even possible for him to do so why keep saying that's what you want him to do?

Pete scan this thread and see what the consensus is on here.

What any reasonable person would expect was that an owner of a business would not rack up heinous debts without having the means to repay those debts. That's just totally irresponsible.

And then when they realise they can't (or won't) honour the debts that they've racked up use administration to run away from the issues that they've created (zero accountability). That's just cowardly. 

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

I am not lauding Morris for anything. Just saying that to describe it as "walking away" is a distortion of the facts. Appointment of administrators is an appointment of people whose statutory duty is to act in the interests of the creditors, and to try and get a better deal for them than the alternative. It is not insulting to the unescured creditors to say that.. because the unescured creditors could get nothing at all if the club went into liquidation.

And as iram says none of us know how wealthy Morris is so just saying he should pay off £56 million of debt makes it sound easy. None of us know whether that is even possible for him to do so why keep saying that's what you want him to do?

Mel boy give it a rest. He said he'd keep funding the club until he managed to find a buyer and then he stopped funding the club, so yet again just another false statement from the bloke. Now we can have a pointless discussion as to whether he'd reached a point where he was struggling to fund the losses as none of us know one way or the other. But putting the club into administration is by definition walking away from the situation. There is literally no other way you can put it. 

On his attempts to sell the club, he was still according to the Al-Jazeera documentary asking for 100 million all in, and 50 million for club minus the stadium. That is not the sale price of a man desperate to sell up, but rather the actions of a businessman looking to secure as much money as possible for a second division club. If he wanted out 2 years ago are you really telling me he couldn't have found a consortium who wanted to buy the club for a couple of quid? 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[Red Ram]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Yes I think Sunday Times said he was worth £500 million.  But where is that money? .. all his Companies seem to have nothing in them.    

Why would you expect his personal wealth to be visible in any of his limited companies? The entire point of the limited company construct is to act as a firewall to protect the owner's personal wealth.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Lol. So you're saying Mel is a 'fake sheik'?! He's got to the point where he doesn't WANT to pay anymore, which was why he has been desperate to get rid. Even Mel told us he was going to keep funding the club.

I am saying I do not know how much money he has. Not that he is a fake sheikh anymore than Kirchner , who according to Nixon is a billionaire, which Kirchner himslef denied.

[PistoldPete]

54 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Pete scan this thread and see what the consensus is on here.

What any reasonable person would expect was that an owner of a business would not rack up heinous debts without having the means to repay those debts. That's just totally irresponsible.

And then when they realise they can't (or won't) honour the debts that they've racked up use administration to run away from the issues that they've created (zero accountability). That's just cowardly. 

I agree that Morris has acted recklessly, no question. You cannot ignore COVID of course which no reasonable person could have anticipated. Even so, you might expect someone to have something set aside for contingencies not just burn though £200 million and have nothing left.

But if you can't honour your debts (and many people for whatever reason do get into that situation) what can you do? All I have said is that administration was then the only option, if the alternatives are fraudulent trading or liquidation. Not much of a choice but that is where we were at.  It's not running away quite the contrary .. it's facing up to the facts, grim though they are.  

 

[GboroRam]

33 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I agree that Morris has acted recklessly, no question. You cannot ignore COVID of course which no reasonable person could have anticipated. Even so, you might expect someone to have something set aside for contingencies not just burn though £200 million and have nothing left.

But if you can't honour your debts (and many people for whatever reason do get into that situation) what can you do? All I have said is that administration was then the only option, if the alternatives are fraudulent trading or liquidation. Not much of a choice but that is where we were at.  It's not running away quite the contrary .. it's facing up to the facts, grim though they are.  

 

The Covid question is a legitimate one. How much has it affected the course of the club? Impossible for us to say. But we can see how other clubs are affected. If we find that most clubs can manage to circumnavigate the waves of Covid without sinking the club, can we surmise that Mel took us too far beyond the point of no return? All clubs had to manage through it one way or another. We're not the biggest club that had income restricted, plus we didn't lose the most money of all football teams - although I accept as a proportion of our funding, it had a major impact. But if other teams can manage to stay afloat I expect we should be able to. From what we're led to believe, Mel is one of the big money players, he's not a financial minnow.

Mel clearly was ready to pass the club on to the next person, as he was unwilling (unable? Impossible to say for sure) to keep paying. I think Covid offered him a great opportunity to stop paying what he'd committed himself to. In many ways perhaps he had little choice - who was going to come in and pay the full costs with the debts the club is carrying?

I think morally Mel had a duty to settle the outstanding bills at his own cost. It wouldn't have been easy, and it may have taken him time to get there. But in the meantime we should have started to cut our cloth accordingly, reduce the wages bill, reduce our costs and maximise our income. I'm sure it's possible to run the club without losing money every month, but it's highly implausible that any club can be competitive in the Championship while breaking even. With HRMC paid off and the club not bleeding cash a sale might have been possible. But when offered an opportunity to blame covid for administration, it likely has saved Mel tens of millions of pounds in total.

[PistoldPete]

3 hours ago, GboroRam said:

The Covid question is a legitimate one. How much has it affected the course of the club? Impossible for us to say. But we can see how other clubs are affected. If we find that most clubs can manage to circumnavigate the waves of Covid without sinking the club, can we surmise that Mel took us too far beyond the point of no return? All clubs had to manage through it one way or another. We're not the biggest club that had income restricted, plus we didn't lose the most money of all football teams - although I accept as a proportion of our funding, it had a major impact. But if other teams can manage to stay afloat I expect we should be able to. From what we're led to believe, Mel is one of the big money players, he's not a financial minnow.

Mel clearly was ready to pass the club on to the next person, as he was unwilling (unable? Impossible to say for sure) to keep paying. I think Covid offered him a great opportunity to stop paying what he'd committed himself to. In many ways perhaps he had little choice - who was going to come in and pay the full costs with the debts the club is carrying?

I think morally Mel had a duty to settle the outstanding bills at his own cost. It wouldn't have been easy, and it may have taken him time to get there. But in the meantime we should have started to cut our cloth accordingly, reduce the wages bill, reduce our costs and maximise our income. I'm sure it's possible to run the club without losing money every month, but it's highly implausible that any club can be competitive in the Championship while breaking even. With HRMC paid off and the club not bleeding cash a sale might have been possible. But when offered an opportunity to blame covid for administration, it likely has saved Mel tens of millions of pounds in total.

That’s your take Gboro but as others have said we don’t really know exactly what has happened. We know Morris was trying to sell the club from summer of 2019 onwards. And I don’t think he has really put any new money in since then. So I think COVID hit us at the wrong time plus we have the biggest support so it hit us hardest. 
 

if PPS is on offer for only £20 million as Nixon claims I don’t think that is a deal breaker far from it. Sounds like a bargain to me.

Boro claiming £45 million for nothing could be a deal breaker though and personally my anger right now is focused on Boro and Wycombe. 
 

mind you it just seems to add to the siege mentality the lads are fighting hard.

[atherstoneram]

Didn't i read somewhere at the start of all this that MSD forced MM to put the club into administration

[observer]

couldnt the fans crowdfund the £20m to OWN the stadium, then rent it the club for free but with tied in benefits, structured around season tickets and discounted hospitality /events

 

If fans want to TRULY be in control then owning the biggest asset is better than owning the actual club in some ways

 

[vonwright]

On 03/01/2022 at 14:12, GboroRam said:

The Covid question is a legitimate one. How much has it affected the course of the club? Impossible for us to say. But we can see how other clubs are affected. If we find that most clubs can manage to circumnavigate the waves of Covid without sinking the club, can we surmise that Mel took us too far beyond the point of no return? All clubs had to manage through it one way or another. We're not the biggest club that had income restricted, plus we didn't lose the most money of all football teams - although I accept as a proportion of our funding, it had a major impact. But if other teams can manage to stay afloat I expect we should be able to. From what we're led to believe, Mel is one of the big money players, he's not a financial minnow.

Mel clearly was ready to pass the club on to the next person, as he was unwilling (unable? Impossible to say for sure) to keep paying. I think Covid offered him a great opportunity to stop paying what he'd committed himself to. In many ways perhaps he had little choice - who was going to come in and pay the full costs with the debts the club is carrying?

I think morally Mel had a duty to settle the outstanding bills at his own cost. It wouldn't have been easy, and it may have taken him time to get there. But in the meantime we should have started to cut our cloth accordingly, reduce the wages bill, reduce our costs and maximise our income. I'm sure it's possible to run the club without losing money every month, but it's highly implausible that any club can be competitive in the Championship while breaking even. With HRMC paid off and the club not bleeding cash a sale might have been possible. But when offered an opportunity to blame covid for administration, it likely has saved Mel tens of millions of pounds in total.

It's hard to get away from the fact we are, so far, the only club to enter administration during the pandemic (other than Bury and Wigan, who had well-publicised non-Covid issues).

Yes we didn't get the £8m EFL Covid loan but a) other clubs got by without it, b) it was a loan, and c) it was really quite small compared to the money we'd burnt through season after season. (For instance, it is roughly equal to the pay-off we supposedly still owe Cocu and his staff).

I don't know (or particularly care) whether it was pride, denial, or something else that saw Mel let things drift to a point where he couldn't or wouldn't foot the bill, but I do blame him to a very large degree for where we are now.

[plymouthram]

On 02/01/2022 at 13:13, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I'm happy to get in the ring with both Mel and Gibson, I'm carrying a little extra weight after the Christmas over indulgence and I'd fancy my chances.

Is that you in training already Mackworth. Who you taking on first Gibson or Mel.

[PistoldPete]

16 hours ago, vonwright said:

It's hard to get away from the fact we are, so far, the only club to enter administration during the pandemic (other than Bury and Wigan, who had well-publicised non-Covid issues).

Yes we didn't get the £8m EFL Covid loan but a) other clubs got by without it, b) it was a loan, and c) it was really quite small compared to the money we'd burnt through season after season. (For instance, it is roughly equal to the pay-off we supposedly still owe Cocu and his staff).

I don't know (or particularly care) whether it was pride, denial, or something else that saw Mel let things drift to a point where he couldn't or wouldn't foot the bill, but I do blame him to a very large degree for where we are now.

You're right the lack of the £8 m loan is probably only the final staw, the bigger reasons why COVID impacted us more than anyone else is because our lost revenue was bigger than anyone else's, and because as you say Morris had alreday decided/ was unable  to  fund the club and was looking to sell, so the COVID pandemic happened at the worst possible time. If COVID had happened when Fawaz was looking to sell Forest the effect would have been at least as catastrophic for them.

[SamUltraRam]

I seem to remember MM telling Radio Derby that he thought going into administration would be the best for the club long term !!!

Well that's not going too well is it Mel ?

[i-Ram]

31 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

You're right the lack of the £8 m loan is probably only the final staw, the bigger reasons why COVID impacted us more than anyone else is because our lost revenue was bigger than anyone else's, and because as you say Morris had alreday decided/ was unable  to  fund the club and was looking to sell, so the COVID pandemic happened at the worst possible time. If COVID had happened when Fawaz was looking to sell Forest the effect would have been at least as catastrophic for them.

Opinion, not possible to support with facts. For all we know the mighty Fawaz could have agreed significant refrigeration contracts with Pfizer and Moderna to ensure the football club he loved and cherished continued to survive. 

[i-Ram]

4 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:

I seem to remember MM telling Radio Derby that he thought going into administration would be the best for the club long term !!!

Well that's not going too well is it Mel ?

To be fair taking it out of his hands was the beginning of a possible solution. Might be too late. Let’s hope not.

[metalsheep02]

6 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:

I seem to remember MM telling Radio Derby that he thought going into administration would be the best for the club long term !!!

Well that's not going too well is it Mel ?

I wonder if we misheard him and he actually said 'going into administration for the long term'?

[Grumpy Git]

6 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:

I seem to remember MM telling Radio Derby that he thought going into administration would be the best for the club long term !!!

Well that's not going too well is it Mel ?

Going into administration is never the best thing for anyone, its done as a result of a catastrophic financial failure.

[Crewton]

It's not easy to get a grip on what MM is worth these days. He wasn't listed in the latest Sunday Times Rich List, but it started at £600M this year (the top 1,000 have obviously had a tough pandemic ?) and it appears he's committed (one way or another) approx £200M to DCFC since May 2014. Equally, it's hard to imagine he's down to his last £100M, but I suspect if he has a problem it's liquidity of funds. Investments in private companies are hard to realise and even assets are hard to shift at the moment. What we may never know is whether it's a case of "can't pay" or "won't pay" but, if he wants to regain any personal credibility, he should at least be helpful to the process and not a hindrance, as is being suggested by some sources. 

[Grumpy Git]

4 hours ago, Crewton said:

It's not easy to get a grip on what MM is worth these days. He wasn't listed in the latest Sunday Times Rich List, but it started at £600M this year (the top 1,000 have obviously had a tough pandemic ?) and it appears he's committed (one way or another) approx £200M to DCFC since May 2014. Equally, it's hard to imagine he's down to his last £100M, but I suspect if he has a problem it's liquidity of funds. Investments in private companies are hard to realise and even assets are hard to shift at the moment. What we may never know is whether it's a case of "can't pay" or "won't pay" but, if he wants to regain any personal credibility, he should at least be helpful to the process and not a hindrance, as is being suggested by some sources. 

Not forgetting letting his ego get in the way (if based on nothing other than the amount of times he appeared on TalkSport) and given his "celebrity" signings!

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Opinion, not possible to support with facts. For all we know the mighty Fawaz could have agreed significant refrigeration contracts with Pfizer and Moderna to ensure the football club he loved and cherished continued to survive. 

Well considering some people were saying a single winding up application was a sign we were in trouble, Fawaz had them on a weekly basis. How would he have coped with the financial impact of COVID?