Is Mel still 'pulling the strings'?

[Maharan]

18 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Well considering some people were saying a single winding up application was a sign we were in trouble, Fawaz had them on a weekly basis. How would he have coped with the financial impact of COVID?

It's immaterial though isn't it. Mel decided to stop paying the bills and put the club into administration. Fawaz was a mess, no doubt about it, but he didn't decide to stop paying the bills. That's the point really, other clubs might have cash problems, but they aren't in administration

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Well considering some people were saying a single winding up application was a sign we were in trouble, Fawaz had them on a weekly basis. How would he have coped with the financial impact of COVID?

We can only work on facts Pete. No point in speculating.

Fawaz did not put his Club into Administration. Fawaz identified someone to buy his mess from him. Perhaps he was asking a reasonable price?

[PistoldPete]

2 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

We can only work on facts Pete. No point in speculating.

Fawaz did not put his Club into Administration. Fawaz identified someone to buy his mess from him. Perhaps he was asking a reasonable price?

Perhaps. At the moment the admin team haven’t secured a buyer for us yet either.

Are they not asking a reasonable price? According to Gibson we are being offered at a giveaway price.

[i-Ram]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Perhaps. At the moment the admin team haven’t secured a buyer for us yet either.

Are they not asking a reasonable price? According to Gibson we are being offered at a giveaway price.

Morris delayed put us into Admin. He was trying to get as much money back as poss. By the time he finally went down the admin route we were a financial basket case. 

[Maharan]

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Perhaps. At the moment the admin team haven’t secured a buyer for us yet either.

Are they not asking a reasonable price? According to Gibson we are being offered at a giveaway price.

Maybe they can't offer the club at a reasonable price because of the state it's been left in! 

[ck-]

On 04/01/2022 at 12:35, observer said:

couldnt the fans crowdfund the £20m to OWN the stadium, then rent it the club for free but with tied in benefits, structured around season tickets and discounted hospitality /events

 

If fans want to TRULY be in control then owning the biggest asset is better than owning the actual club in some ways

 

Interesting option. 20,000 fans at £1000 each. Or 2,000 fans at £10,000 each. 
Does anyone know what the proposed yearly rental to the club is? 

[PistoldPete]

26 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Morris delayed put us into Admin. He was trying to get as much money back as poss. By the time he finally went down the admin route we were a financial basket case. 

We can only work on facts , or so you told me. How do you know how much he was asking? And you think getting a 12 point deduction and relegation last year would have been any better?

Edited January 5, 2022 by PistoldPete

[i-Ram]

24 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

We can only work on facts , or so you told me. How do you know how much he was asking? And you think getting a 12 point deduction and relegation last year would have been any better?

I thought it was pretty common knowledge, but I accept you might be right as I have not prsonally fact checked it, that when Morris was doing his televised dance with Samuelsen in 2019 that he was seeking £100m for the club including stadium (whilst also offering some loan account adjustments that might have been P&S efficient for any future owner).

Not sure how you have leapt to me thinking that a 12 point deduction and relegation last year would have been any better?  Morris should have stood by his word and continued funding the Club. If he couldnt do that he should not have borrowed monies from MSD/ran up debts with HMRC - he should have stepped aside and allowed someone to take over the Club.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by i-Ram

[PistoldPete]

7 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I thought it was pretty common knowledge, but I accept you might be right as I have not prsonally fact checked it, that when Morris was doing his televised dance with Samuelsen in 2019 that he was seeking £100m for the club including stadium (whilst also offering some loan account adjustments that might have been P&S efficient for any future owner).

Not sure how you have leapt to me thinking that a 12 point deduction and relegation last year would have been any better?  Dont try to put false words in my mouth. Morris should have stood by his word and continued funding the Club.

 

Thanks Iram I haven’t seen the programme. 
You may be right.

I didn’t quote you directly so no words put in any mouths. I think you said he delayed putting us in admin. From which I implied you think he should have put us in admin earlier. Not an unreasonable interpretation of what you said, I think.

 

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Thanks Iram I haven’t seen the programme. 
You may be right.

I didn’t quote you directly so no words put in any mouths. I think you said he delayed putting us in admin. From which I implied you think he should have put us in admin earlier. Not an unreasonable interpretation of what you said, I think.

 

Sorry Pete; I did withdraw that comment. I realised it was unnecesary, and changed the wording as you will see above. I think Morris did delay the Admin process, but I didnt mean to imply he should have put us into administration earlier. After the Samuelsen venture, I think Gabay followed, then the Sheikh, then Alonso, and then perhaps someone else before it became clear that no one was going to buy with liabilities mounting, and the EFL still to battle with. Maybe his asking price was coming down between 2019-2021, who knows, but as custodian of the Club in my view he should have written off his investment when he knew he had no more funds personally, or no more funds he was prepared to put in, and should have stepped aside to let another individual take the helm.

[Ramism]

On 04/01/2022 at 12:35, observer said:

couldnt the fans crowdfund the £20m to OWN the stadium, then rent it the club for free but with tied in benefits, structured around season tickets and discounted hospitality /events

 

If fans want to TRULY be in control then owning the biggest asset is better than owning the actual club in some ways

 

Trouble is who pays for the upkeep of the stadium/H&S legislation etc etc I doubt it’s as simple as let’s buy it then let Derby use it for free

[PistoldPete]

14 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Sorry Pete; I did withdraw that comment. I realised it was unnecesary, and changed the wording as you will see above. I think Morris did delay the Admin process, but I didnt mean to imply he should have put us into administration earlier. After the Samuelsen venture, I think Gabay followed, then the Sheikh, then Alonso, and then perhaps someone else before it became clear that no one was going to buy with liabilities mounting, and the EFL still to battle with. Maybe his asking price was coming down between 2019-2021, who knows, but as custodian of the Club in my view he should have written off his investment when he knew he had no more funds personally, or no more funds he was prepared to put in, and should have stepped aside to let another individual take the helm.

That's fine iram. But as I say this is speculation we don't know. Morris was dealing with chancers , which may be a reflection of how desperate he was to sell. They messed him around , just as Kirchner has messed us about since imo.

Hence the delays , which are still ongoing.

If he was asking for £100 m in 2019 (just after the play off final) was that really over the top given he was writing off the debt owed to him.?

COVID has knocked a £30m to £40 m hole in our finances according to the admin team. And they are now seeking around £60m. So not sure that is any more over the top compared to what you say Morris was asking.     

   

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

That's fine iram. But as I say this is speculation we don't know. Morris was dealing with chancers , which may be a reflection of how desperate he was to sell. They messed him around , just as Kirchner has messed us about since imo.

And how little he cared who he was selling us to! Just get his money out.

[europia]

6 hours ago, Maharan said:

Maybe they can't offer the club at a reasonable price because of the state it's been left in! 

Quite possibly.  A mismatch between what an interested party is able / willing to pay, and the amount required to meet the figure that the administrators can persuade creditors to accept. Doesn't bode well if this is the case. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by europia

[Eatonram]

6 minutes ago, europia said:

Quite possibly.  A mismatch between what an interested party is able / willing to pay, and the amount required to meet an amount the administrators can persuade creditors to accept. Doesn't bode well if this is the case. 

But if the price offered is more than the likely teals from liquidation then surely it had to be considered?

[Eatonram]

That was meant to say likely yield. 

[kevinhectoring]

On 03/01/2022 at 09:34, i-Ram said:

any Club owner should be under a moral obligation to transfer the Club to a subsequent owner in no worse condition than it was acquired

sanctimonious specious crowd-pleasing piffle   

the pertinent question is this: is MM obliged to continue to fund losses ad infinitum? Is he for example obliged to continue to fund losses when Gibson has his balls in a mangle and can stop him selling the club? Because that's the situation Morris was in and that's the situation Quantuma advised MSD on, when the last seller withdrew and when MM said: I'm not funding another cent.

And I reckon what they advised was:  the only way you get a deal with the EFL is if it is negotiated by administrators. Then the club can be sold and can remain a going concern

so @PistoldPete is in a way correct. Morris pulled the funding. Any suggestion he is not ultimately entitled to do this is facile. This left just two options, administration or liquidation. He opted for the former, for obvious reasons, and he agreed to assist the administrators in their quest to sell the club. Of course the choice of admin was not primarily driven by creditors' interests - it was driven by a determination the club should continue. But that choice puts the creditors in a much better position than if there had been a liquidation

 

 

 

[i-Ram]

13 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Sanctimonious specious crowd-pleasing piffle.

the pertinent question is this: is MM obliged to continue to fund losses ad infinitum? Is he for example obliged to continue to fund losses when Gibson has his balls in a mangle and can stop him selling the club? Because that's the situation Morris was in and that's the situation Quantuma advised MSD on, when the last seller withdrew and when MM said: I'm not funding another cent.

And I reckon what they advised was:  the only way you get a deal with the EFL is if it is negotiated by administrators. Then the club can be sold and can remain a going concern

so @PistoldPete is in a way correct. Morris pulled the funding. Any suggestion he is not ultimately entitled to do this is facile. This left just two options, administration or liquidation. He opted for the former, for obvious reasons, and he agreed to assist the administrators in their quest to sell the club. Of course the choice of admin was not primarily driven by creditors' interests - it was driven by a determination the club should continue. But that choice puts the creditors in a much better position than if there had been a liquidation

That would have been a really good post, if only you had made it clear that the first sentence was actually the overall summary of your post. I have FIFY on my attachment.

[kevinhectoring]

1 minute ago, i-Ram said:

That would have been a really good post, if only you had made it clear that the first sentence was actually the overall summary of your post. I have FIFY on my attachment.

Once again you put me mercilessly to the sword ?

[Ram1988]

HMRC should make Mel personally liable for the debt he has wracked up.