The Administration Thread

[Curtains]

4 minutes ago, David said:

I'm still yet to receive an apology though, all I got was a "erm...didn't realise" ?

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

5 minutes ago, David said:

I'm still yet to receive an apology though, all I got was a "erm...didn't realise" ?

[Curtains]

Just now, Curtains said:

 

For Steve Gibson and the EFL and Boro

[Day]

Just now, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Apology accepted.

[i-Ram]

32 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Could it now be any clearer? In the space of 48 hours the EFL have stated BOTH that the club has the offer of EITHER 'impartial' arbitration OR the High Courts as a means to satisfy claims AND that they now acknowledges MFC/WWFC as football creditors, which would leave arbitration as the sole route forward. Wholly contradictory statements and yet another example of their contemptuous abuse of power. There has been no discussion, no arbitration and no independent input to this decision, rather it is a call made arbitrarily and unilaterally by the EFL board with no outside consultation and in contravention of their own directives. Do these clowns even read what they regurgitate into the public domain? Do they not even cross-reference the claims made in one with the other? The inconsistencies (read: huge ducking porkies) are glaring and have been for two years now. Likewise Gibson who appears to have the attention span of a hungry toddler and the linguistic skills of one too.

Heads must now roll at the EFL. There is NO ROOM FOR DOUBT anymore. In their poorly conceived and executed PR campaign seeking to shift the onus to Morris, the admins and even the 'highest bidder', they have absolutely tied themselves in knots and in doing so, have threatened both the stability and integrity of the League they are meant to govern and serve. 

At this point, the 72 member clubs simply must act. There can be no remaining doubt that the EFL prioritises its own interests over those of its member clubs. Ladies and gentlemen, the tail is clearly wagging the dog. This is, of course, a wholly unacceptable state of affairs and will inevitably lead to chaos should the precedent they seek to set be entertained. Every subsequent season will start with multiple different fixture lists as the governing body and civil courts wade through dozens of spurious football related claims, clubs will be forced into admin and /or liquidation and the league system as we know it, will fail. A vote of no confidence and the immediate resignations of Rick Parry and Trevor Birch are now mandatory requirements on the long road back to credible and impartial governance of the League. For any governing body, as custodians of football, to bring bring the English game into such hopeless disrepute is simply unforgiveable and action must be taken sooner rather than later, irrespective of the situation at Derby County.

As for Messrs Gibson and Couhig, your bluff has now been called. If you truly believe in the veracity of your claims and are not simply looking to leverage the threat of liquidation to extort funds from a club who has already accepted its punishment (in keeping with the EFL's own directives), it's time for you to accept Mr Morris's offer of your day in court. Any other course of action will merely confirm suspicions of the very unsavoury motivations that have led to what appears to have been a merit-less witch-hunt borne solely out of greed and petty personal grievances. I'm looking at you specifically Gibson. You chose to prioritise continuing your spat with Mel Morris over the future of the club, the welfare of it's employees, the sustainability of local businesses and the mental health of the wider community. This will NEVER be forgotten, nor forgiven. I speak only for myself when I say that having been a chairman whom I once held in high regard, I have now come to despise everything for which you stand. 

I trust also that those on this forum who openly mocked posters who for two years have openly expressed the view that the EFL's treatment of Derby County Football Club has been less than impartial, will now take time to think about whether said posts were fair, warranted or helpful. Hindsight, it is true, is a wonderful thing, but so too is an open mind.

A last thought in regards to Mel Morris; Mel, I was one of your staunchest supporters. I was wrong. It broke my heart when you placed the club into administration. Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances as yet unknown, but we are where we are and you sir, were the custodian of this club we all love. Inevitably, the buck stops with you. All of this notwithstanding, thank you for the steps you have now taken to break the impasse. What's done can't be changed, but I do hope that this will at least give harsher critics some small pause for thought. 

Really good post. I so nearly gave it a like, but there are a couple of areas I am uncomfortable with.

You accuse quite rightly Gibson of [damaging] the future of the club, the welfare of it's employees, the sustainability of local businesses and the mental health of the wider community. However you still seem to be soft-shoeing Morris who is just as culpable, probably more so, in respect of those outcomes.

I also think it harsh, indeed probably incorrect to say posters have been ‘openly mocked’ for expressing the view that the EFL's treatment of Derby County Football Club has been less than impartial. I certainly fall into the category of a poster who has had some sympathy for some of the actions of the EFL, because action did need to be taken to control the excesses witnessed during the Morris reign, which lets not forget ended up with many individuals, companies and authorities around £80m out of pocket. It also left the Club on the absolute brink even if Gibson and his spurious claims were not in the mix.

This is not a post to support the EFL nor vilify Morris. It is purely to give I think a little more balance. I am glad Morris is now at last offering to do something meaning to help us out of this hole, and I hope more than anything that not only does our Club now survive, but that Parry, Birch and the EFL are ultimately consigned to Football’s Room 101. The EFL and it’s executive have evidenced beyond reasonable doubt that they are totally unfit for purpose over the last 5 months.

Otherwise, really good post ??

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

think Boro claim was against Dcfc and its Directors. So it was against him and Pearce . Hopefully not Roy Mac as well.

Pete, I am usually warmed by your contributions to this forum but on this occasion I reluctantly have to say this is unhelpful and merely confuses the situation for some others. The comment indicates a clear lack of understanding of the concept of limited liability for claims against a company . Limited liability absolves a director from personal liability so quite rightly Gibson has lodged his claim against DCFC as a company. Neither Morris, Pearce, McFarland whoever has any personal  liability for the claim. It falls squarely on the company that is DCFC Limited.

However, Mel Morris has offered to accept the transfer of liability from DCFC to himself personally. I do not know if this has previously been done under English Law or not. But it seems a very reasonable and generous offer. If it does set a precedent, the High Court is an a position to accept Mel's offer and hear the case by way of case law in which it lays down its reason for hearing MFC v Morris or not. If it makes it a stated case and allows it to be heard, then the principle of the transfer of liability will become enshrined in law for the future.

I hope that Mel has benefitted from expert legal advice beyond what is probably available within this forum and has been told the court may well allow the claim to proceed in the way Mel has proposed. We shall see.

In biblical terms the offer is morally outstanding for Mel is saying to Caesar Gibson by all means seek to crucify me but please don't pursue genocide against my former flock, which is the fanbase of Derby County. So let's hope it works.

[Dai Capp]

3 hours ago, angieram said:

The reason he has done it this way is to make it clear that the only way for there to be a fair hearing is through the high court.

If he just agrees to indemnify the claim, the EFL and Middlesbrough will continue to push for closed shop arbitration rather than a court decision, where they can select their counsel to get the result they want. Their track record of impartiality when it comes to Derby County is pretty damning.

Mel Morris doesn't trust the EFL to play fair. I don't trust the EFL to play fair either.

I agree - I wonder if a compromise might be arbitration if the three QC panel is made up of a DCFC/MM QC, a Boro/Wycombe QC and the Sports Minister appoints a QC instead of the EFL. That would also send a clear message of a move toward independent regulation.

[ollycutts1982]

1 minute ago, Dai Capp said:

I agree - I wonder if a compromise might be arbitration if the three QC panel is made up of a DCFC/MM QC, a Boro/Wycombe QC and the Sports Minister appoints a QC instead of the EFL. That would also send a clear message of a move toward independent regulation.

Makes perfect sense. No way the EFL or MFC would go for it though. 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

 

[Tyler Durden]

12 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

In biblical terms the offer is morally outstanding for Mel is saying to Caesar Gibson by all means seek to crucify me but please don't pursue genocide against my former flock, which is the fanbase of Derby County. So let's hope it works.

It was Pontius Pilate who ordered the crucifixion of Jesus there was no Caesar alive at the time of his death keen Bible student that I am

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

It was Pontius Pilate who ordered the crucifixion of Jesus there was no Caesar alive at the time of his death keen Bible student that I am

I will bow to your greater knowledge on this matter for I am but a humble atheist vicar. But I stand by the principle I was trying to explain.

[ollycutts1982]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It was Pontius Pilate who ordered the crucifixion of Jesus there was no Caesar alive at the time of his death keen Bible student that I am

But there was no Jesus?????

[RadioactiveWaste]

Whilst we wait for mr stephan to consider things,

It's clear Mel still thinks he did nothing wrong and he is in the right.

Unfortunate smoggyman also believes he's right.

Now, I don't particually see Morris as having done nothing wrong myself (what with the club in administration and all), but see it (still) as a case of has Morris been clever enough in how he's done things to be squeeky clean / come up smelling of roses.

From the point of view of unfortunate smoggyman, he feels he was wronged, hence he feels all of his actions are justified, but him feeling wronged is not the same as him proving his claims for damages. and him feeling wronged does not in itself legitimise his actions morally or legally.

 

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

8 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It was Pontius Pilate who ordered the crucifixion of Jesus there was no Caesar alive at the time of his death keen Bible student that I am

So who was the Caesar that earthly things were supposed to be rendered to?

[RadioactiveWaste]

I thought Pontius Pilate washed his hands of the whole thing, so didn't order it, but did took no action to prevent it, standing as a testament to moral cowardice (if you're onboard with the bible's version of events - i haven't looked up the roman court documents or seen accounting for the 30 pieces of silver).

[Jimbo Ram]

20 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

I will bow to your greater knowledge on this matter for I am but a humble atheist vicar. But I stand by the principle I was trying to explain.

Me too ?

[CornwallRam]

3 hours ago, Sparkle said:

The main issue in all these recent statements is how much everyone supposedly wants Derby county to survive - well now we have a route forwards and the EFL have to take it .

prospective new owners and the administrators know that MM will meet the costs if Middlesbrough and Wycombe win their cases in the high court - Gibson has stated constantly that he will go to court even yesterday, whilst also banging on about MM in every strange statement his club have made. Those two can now go and have that day in court.

Wycombe position becomes stranger by the day as they apparently haven’t even put a case in yet, those as well can go to the High court to settle any claim and get paid if successful. 
 

The politicians see an obvious way out and can now follow through into the EFL if they do not use their ‘Guidelines’ to save Derby County and allow creditors to get as much money as administration can obtain.

The administrators know that they will be able to achieve a CVA and the majority of creditors get at least 25% of money owed and that is extremely relevant.

The EFL have a chance to save a small amount of face by allowing the administrators to move forward with a preferred bidder whilst not dismissing the two claims of the Middlesbrough and Wycombe owners, the fact that the EFL even invited MM to a meeting was strange enough but he has now covered the club from these claims through the high court. The EFL have been given a big wide open route out of the hole they have dug themselves into and their future existence as well as Derby County rests on what they do next - They also have an awful lot of questions to answer about their conduct in this whole mess but thats part of this ending.

I could be wrong, but I think the problem is that the administrators can't get a CVA because HMRC won't settle for for any figure that the bidders will pay. 

The restructuring plan effectively reduces HMRC to an unsecured creditor, and they'll just get the same percentage as the rest. If it's less than 25% we get a points deduction, but I think most bidders will accept that as the business plan will prevent a promotion push for a couple of seasons.

Football creditors will also be entitled to the same, but presumably the new owners will voluntarily make up the difference to stay in the league.

That's why I don't think that Mel's offer will actually help. We need these claims sorting before we run out of cash, and a court case won't be quick. 

It's profoundly irritating, but if Mel wants to get this sorted, he'll have to make them a cash offer. The alternative is the Arbitration route, but I think everyone is rightly suspicious of any EFL mandated hearings. 

[TooFarInToTurnRed]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Could it now be any clearer? In the space of 48 hours the EFL have stated BOTH that the club has the offer of EITHER 'impartial' arbitration OR the High Courts as a means to satisfy claims AND that they now acknowledges MFC/WWFC as football creditors, which would leave arbitration as the sole route forward. Wholly contradictory statements and yet another example of their contemptuous abuse of power. There has been no discussion, no arbitration and no independent input to this decision, rather it is a call made arbitrarily and unilaterally by the EFL board with no outside consultation and in contravention of their own directives. Do these clowns even read what they regurgitate into the public domain? Do they not even cross-reference the claims made in one with the other? The inconsistencies (read: huge ducking porkies) are glaring and have been for two years now. Likewise Gibson who appears to have the attention span of a hungry toddler and the linguistic skills of one too.

Heads must now roll at the EFL. There is NO ROOM FOR DOUBT anymore. In their poorly conceived and executed PR campaign seeking to shift the onus to Morris, the admins and even the 'highest bidder', they have absolutely tied themselves in knots and in doing so, have threatened both the stability and integrity of the League they are meant to govern and serve. 

At this point, the 72 member clubs simply must act. There can be no remaining doubt that the EFL prioritises its own interests over those of its member clubs. Ladies and gentlemen, the tail is clearly wagging the dog. This is, of course, a wholly unacceptable state of affairs and will inevitably lead to chaos should the precedent they seek to set be entertained. Every subsequent season will start with multiple different fixture lists as the governing body and civil courts wade through dozens of spurious football related claims, clubs will be forced into admin and /or liquidation and the league system as we know it, will fail. A vote of no confidence and the immediate resignations of Rick Parry and Trevor Birch are now mandatory requirements on the long road back to credible and impartial governance of the League. For any governing body, as custodians of football, to bring bring the English game into such hopeless disrepute is simply unforgiveable and action must be taken sooner rather than later, irrespective of the situation at Derby County.

As for Messrs Gibson and Couhig, your bluff has now been called. If you truly believe in the veracity of your claims and are not simply looking to leverage the threat of liquidation to extort funds from a club who has already accepted its punishment (in keeping with the EFL's own directives), it's time for you to accept Mr Morris's offer of your day in court. Any other course of action will merely confirm suspicions of the very unsavoury motivations that have led to what appears to have been a merit-less witch-hunt borne solely out of greed and petty personal grievances. I'm looking at you specifically Gibson. You chose to prioritise continuing your spat with Mel Morris over the future of the club, the welfare of it's employees, the sustainability of local businesses and the mental health of the wider community. This will NEVER be forgotten, nor forgiven. I speak only for myself when I say that having been a chairman whom I once held in high regard, I have now come to despise everything for which you stand. 

I trust also that those on this forum who openly mocked posters who for two years have openly expressed the view that the EFL's treatment of Derby County Football Club has been less than impartial, will now take time to think about whether said posts were fair, warranted or helpful. Hindsight, it is true, is a wonderful thing, but so too is an open mind.

A last thought in regards to Mel Morris; Mel, I was one of your staunchest supporters. I was wrong. It broke my heart when you placed the club into administration. Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances as yet unknown, but we are where we are and you sir, were the custodian of this club we all love. Inevitably, the buck stops with you. All of this notwithstanding, thank you for the steps you have now taken to break the impasse. What's done can't be changed, but I do hope that this will at least give harsher critics some small pause for thought. 

Putting my head above the parapet, I have stayed away from criticising MM for 2 reasons. 

Firstly, I am sure there is simply far too much I don’t know about the reasons the club ended up here which will inevitably come out at some point  

Secondly and most importantly, I couldn’t in all honesty say that if I was MM I wouldn’t have let my heart rule my head and ended up in exactly the same place. It would be hypocritical to criticise on that basis imo. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

The claims need sorting to the extent bidders know what they will cost them - if they are unresolved but confirmed to not be a liability to them/dcfc going forward, that's a big step.

I'm still worried about this restructuring plan - i'm not an expert but i remember reading earlier in the thread (like several hundred pages earlier) it's more or less a pre-arranged liquidation and buyout that can only be done with court approval, isn't consistent with EFLs rules (efl rules just don't cover the scenario) and gives creditors a very rough deal....it's no golden bullet to solving things but a last resort prior to liquidation in insolvancy law.

An agreed CVA is much better for everyone if it can be arranged, and if boro and ww bog off and go after mel it might just happen.

[curb]

52 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It was Pontius Pilate who ordered the crucifixion of Jesus there was no Caesar alive at the time of his death keen Bible student that I am

Allegedly