The Administration Thread

[Elwood P Dowd]

1 minute ago, Tamworthram said:

Surely if they win and are confirmed as football creditors they then hold all the cards and can either force us into liquidation (unlikely I would have thought) or force the administrator/preferred bidder to agree a lesser amount than they were originally claiming. That was probably always Middlesbrough’s intention anyway. Anyone with any sense at all (assuming Gibson has some) will know there was never anyway we could pay the full amount they were after.

They could win and force us into liquidation, if they win and are awarded say 5 million they would then, I think, become a football creditor. Even if the PB was prepared to pay this it may cause an issue with HMRC the logic being “ why are WW Boro being paid in full when the HMRC has a reduced payment”

There are lots of potential twists and turns in this saga

 

[Gritstone Ram]

4 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I hate to be negative but hope the Administrators have this right with this course of action. 

It has to come to an end some way. It’s just seems to be going nowhere fast at the moment.

[Mucker1884]

4 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

...At the moment Wycombe and Boro have merely bought a ticket in the Weekly Meat raffle at the EFL Arms...

Please God, No!

Someone please tell me the players won't be called as witnesses, if this is where they are holding proceedings!  ?

[RoyMac5]

I'd rather we took the EFL to arbitration so we could get on with 'cross class cramming' Boro/WW as allowed by the Insolvency Act 2020

Is this arbitration thing going to be one of those cases where it depends what you ask as to the result you get - you know like 'Umpire's Call'? 

[StaffsRam]

2 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

They could win and force us into liquidation, if they win and are awarded say 5 million they would then, I think, become a football creditor. Even if the PB was prepared to pay this it may cause an issue with HMRC the logic being “ why are WW Boro being paid in full when the HMRC has a reduced payment”

There are lots of potential twists and turns in this saga

 

If they win, we’ll take it to the civil courts, and they’re going to have to prove that they were more likely to be promoted than not. Leeds beat them twice that season, as did Aston Villa, and Boro would have gone into the POs having lost 7 of their last 12 games. Good luck proving that then Pube-head.

[RAM1966]

31 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

Do we even know If WW and Boro are being arbitrated separately or jointly, if jointly will they appointment an arbitrator each or will it be a single arbitrator.

I am sure everyone can see how unfair the process could be, especially taking in consideration clause 101.1, if the claims are arbitrated jointly and WW and Boro each appoint their own arbitrator.

It would be good to have clarity and an overview of the arbitration process, the EFL not only need to be fair, they need to be SEEN to be fair, the EFL is under the microscope.

 

I'm not too sure that will bother them, Parry quite clearly mislead tge viewers saying the hold up is with Admin naming a preferred bidder.  He knows full well that the preferred bidder can not be named to Boro and Wycombe issue has been resolved.  So basically he lied, he will do it again to make the EFL look aa if its acting fairly, which it isn't.  I hope Ashley gets the club, I have a feeling his first sigbing may well be a Barrister if we go down!!!!!

[Tamworthram]

23 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Just seems to be a step to take before costly Civil case 

My glass it a bit nearer to half full than yours.

I reckon (and hope) that Wycombe and Middlesbrough submitted their claims as a punt in an attempt to effectively blackmail the administrators into agreeing a settlement rather than delay our exit from administration. 
 

Now that they are going to arbitration, they probably have little choice but to proceed and see what happens. If they lose they’ll just whinge about the injustice and how hard done by they feel but, not take it any further. At the same time as saying what wonderful people they are by not wishing to pursue Derby any further.

Fingers crossed.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Tamworthram

[Indy]

16 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

They could win and force us into liquidation, if they win and are awarded say 5 million they would then, I think, become a football creditor. Even if the PB was prepared to pay this it may cause an issue with HMRC the logic being “ why are WW Boro being paid in full when the HMRC has a reduced payment”

There are lots of potential twists and turns in this saga

 

If they win, would we not take it to an insolvency court to rule on their status? No-one disagrees with the EFL’s claim that they are football bodies which, if they were creditors, would make them football creditors. Isn’t the question of if these grievances would amount to creditor status, which isn’t the EFL’s decision?

[Ramarena]

The briefings have gone very quiet.

[Curtains]

24 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I'm sure. Boro & Wycombe don't actually want their vexatious claims to cost them anything.

Wouldn’t be too sure about that mate 

[Curtains]

27 minutes ago, StaffsRam said:

We win - will Boro want a civil case, knowing that they couldn’t even get a decision here?

Boro win - definite civil court case as the chances of them being able to prove that they were more likely to have gone up than not is nigh on impossible.

But costly 

[Curtains]

26 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

That's not negative at all

 

... unless you think they don't?  ?

I’m skeptical to be honest .

Will be fine if they can fast track civil case after and win if we lose EFL arbitration 

 

[Curtains]

27 minutes ago, Gritstone Ram said:

It has to come to an end some way. It’s just seems to be going nowhere fast at the moment.

Yes Boro/ Wycombe  have us over a barrel at the moment naming preferred bidder because of EFL intransigence on ruling creditors status .

I agree something has to change so maybe Administrators have no other course of action open to them 

[Elwood P Dowd]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

If they win, would we not take it to an insolvency court to rule on their status? No-one disagrees with the EFL’s claim that they are football bodies which, if they were creditors, would make them football creditors. Isn’t the question of if these grievances would amount to creditor status, which isn’t the EFL’s decision?

Time and the costs are not on our side :-

• We only have enough funds for a month, probably a bit more with the Plange sale.
• It may take a 1year + to get the issue in front of a court.
• How would we fund a legal team to take the case to a civil court?

Thats why to need to ensure the Arbitration is fair as this might be our last hope at naming a PB

[Maharan]

9 minutes ago, Indy said:

If they win, would we not take it to an insolvency court to rule on their status? No-one disagrees with the EFL’s claim that they are football bodies which, if they were creditors, would make them football creditors. Isn’t the question of if these grievances would amount to creditor status, which isn’t the EFL’s decision?

I don’t think football creditors is a provision in law though, it’s a condition of membership of the EFL (or payment of football creditors?) 

in legal terms they’re considered the same as other unsecured creditors, but if we want to continue to play in the league, then we have to satisfy the league rules. 
 

that was my understanding, but I’m happy to be corrected if I’ve got it wrong 

[TheSlate]

2 hours ago, i-Ram said:

The letter is fine. You can’t expect a lengthy letter covering the whole range of possible remedies. You don’t need to slate everything.

I'm not slating everything. It's conceivable that arbitration is not the route that the administration takes. 

[Curtains]

17 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

My glass it a bit nearer to half full than yours.

I reckon (and hope) that Wycombe and Middlesbrough submitted their claims as a punt in an attempt to effectively blackmail the administrators into agreeing a settlement rather than delay our exit from administration. 
 

Now that they are going to arbitration, they probably have little choice but to proceed and see what happens. If they lose they’ll just whinge about the injustice and how hard done by they feel but, not take it any further. At the same time as saying what wonderful people they are by not wishing to pursue Derby any further.

Fingers crossed.

Good post mate .

My glass is much fuller than it was since fans mobilized and people more aware of situation than before .

MPs also. 
 

[rammieib]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Wage bill in Sep-Nov was £1.1m per month. I'll be amazed if that's shot up to what you claim after selling players who contributed £150k towards that total and not signing anyone.

Academy expenditure was £5m, but I imagine that has been streamlined slightly.

Running costs in Sep-Nov were about £1.25m per month, so £15m per year. However, when you account for ST money, the funding from the EFL (TV, PL, etc...), that is down to about £3m

You've missed off some significant income streams.

17/18
Match receipts - £9.1m
TV - £8.1m
Commercial - £4m
Sponsorship - £5m
Other - £3.25m

Are you telling me sponsorship under Rowett hasn't increased considering we've had, Lampard, Cocu and now Rooney(!!!) as manager and all of the coverage in the news?
I imagine RamsTV brings in a bit more moeny than it did in 17/18 too.

You've overestimated our expenditure and under estimated our expenses (under normal conditions). Breakeven over an entire season (give or take).

GOC - You've done some really good posts on this thread and I enjoy reading your posts. Thank you for the extra information above and if we have bridged the gap between outgoings and incomings by a lot more than what I've predicted, then fabulous.

Wage Bill - I would hasten a guess your wage Bill is playing staff, whereas I was looking at the total costs. We did employ circa 250 people in DCFC (all the various legal entities) I believe pre-admin, so maybe that's down to 220 or so now. Looking at 'The Derby County Football Club" - back in 2018 they had 153 employees, so remove footballers, and you're probably down to 120? (I imagine academy players are employed by the academy). An average salary of around £25,000 is still £3 Million. 2016 accounts is the last year where there is a highest paid director listed (£196k), I'm not sure in the 2017/2018 accounts where Pearce salary is hidden but just giving this as context to where my 25k average comes from. So Football salaries, none playing members employed by Derby County Football Club and then other employees employed by the other legal identities is where I make up my number from.

So Match receipts and TV we're not too far apart. Commercial income - well, I would say last two years the stadium has been pretty dead. So the commercial income must have reduced - and I still cannot actually work out who the income goes to? If MM through one of his Gellaw companies owns the stadium, will any income not be going into DCFC but instead to Gellaw? (i.e Rent paid by The Yard restaurant)

So all in - you've got us closer to break even, I have it as a £7M annual loss - I'll settle for the middle ground ?

[tinman]

2 hours ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I suspect they may be blowing into the wind with this one - but credit to them for trying.

 

EDIT - Beaten to it by @angieram 

They just love having their tummy ticked by the EFL 

[TomG]

1 minute ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

 

Thats why to need to ensure the Arbitration is fair as this might be our last hope at naming a PB

It might just be me, but I have this niggling feeling that the Arbitration will not be fair.  I just don't trust the EFL or Mr Gibbon not to have some way of 'nobbling' the panel.