Time wasting

[Wolfie]

1 hour ago, ilkleyram said:

No, blaming the refs is the correct option for two reasons. Firstly because they are the solution and secondly because they are allowing the teams, including us though we’re not as bad as others, to get away with it. 

If we wanted all the gamesmanship that is time wasting stopped then the refs have to clamp down on it. I doubt they see it as a problem. 

I will agree that the FA/EFL and refs could all take stronger action but the root cause remains the players and coaches. As has been said, a ref has to work on the assumption that an injury is real until demonstrated otherwise.

Anyway, this is all sour grapes IMO. We do it. They do it. It's not right.

[BaaLocks]

11 hours ago, hintonsboots said:

Should have time off as in Rugby. The ref stops the watch as soon as a substitution is indicated. The player being substituted could then crawl off the pitch at 0.1 mph with no advantage being gained.

Rugby is worse than football, look at how long it takes them to set a scrum with the clock still ticking. What they do manage better is not stopping the game for fouls and injuries.

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

We’ll certainly see the impact of squad size if we get injuries. That’s the main danger. I don’t think Joz or Sibley have played enough minutes to suffer burn out by November. As as for our ineptly selected captain, well if he showed the application of a Shinnie or a Knight every game, he might claim to need a rest. But he doesn’t 

@kevinhectoringIm not talking about physical burnout; I’m talking about “psychological “ burnout, so youre disagreeing about the wrong thing. 

[Crewton]

3 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

For those who can remember, Derby Vs Burnley, Eddie Howe was the manager, This is probly the 1st time I really noticed timewasting gamesmanship as a tactic to slow the game down, I think we lost 0-1, The tactic was to break play up, For us to lose control of the game and to see the players lose a little heart.

It's another tactic that has infiltrated physical sports, Predominantly in football, Player loses the ball, Ball moves forward, He goes down holding his head, A couple of passes later the opposition kick the ball out of play, 2 Physios come on one holding the players head the other giving instructions on how to combat the opposition.

It's a no win situation, The Ref is stuck between a rock and a hard place, There's so much within the game with dare I say "compensation culture" that just in case this is a genuine case the game has to stop, Eriksen of Denmark being a genuine case.

Rugby Union and Rugby league the Ref will signal "stop the clock" for an injured player, While their treatment continues, We have all the techknowledgy in todays world to do as other sports do...it's time we did it.

PS

Anyone watch the England Vs New Zealand Womens Rugby Union game at the weekend, Blood and snot all over the place, Even going face to face as no backing down...these Women put the mens football game to shame, And if Hannah Botterman told me Saturday was Tuesday...I'd agree with her

Howe's teams are the absolute worst for that kind of thing. Proper 's' housing.

[BathRam72]

14 hours ago, hintonsboots said:

Should have time off as in Rugby. The ref stops the watch as soon as a substitution is indicated. The player being substituted could then crawl off the pitch at 0.1 mph with no advantage being gained.

I agree totally and while we are at it, let's give ten minutes in the sin bin for the yellow cards.

The cynical last man tackle to break up an attack with no other punishment than a yellow card would soon stop

[Anag Ram]

I just can't 

 

 

 

bear

 

 

time 

 

 

wasting 

 

 

of

 

any

 

any

 

any

 

 

ty

 

pe. 

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

3 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

For those who can remember, Derby Vs Burnley, Eddie Howe was the manager, This is probly the 1st time I really noticed timewasting gamesmanship as a tactic to slow the game down, I think we lost 0-1, The tactic was to break play up, For us to lose control of the game and to see the players lose a little heart.

It's another tactic that has infiltrated physical sports, Predominantly in football, Player loses the ball, Ball moves forward, He goes down holding his head, A couple of passes later the opposition kick the ball out of play, 2 Physios come on one holding the players head the other giving instructions on how to combat the opposition.

It's a no win situation, The Ref is stuck between a rock and a hard place, There's so much within the game with dare I say "compensation culture" that just in case this is a genuine case the game has to stop, Eriksen of Denmark being a genuine case.

Rugby Union and Rugby league the Ref will signal "stop the clock" for an injured player, While their treatment continues, We have all the techknowledgy in todays world to do as other sports do...it's time we did it.

PS

Anyone watch the England Vs New Zealand Womens Rugby Union game at the weekend, Blood and snot all over the place, Even going face to face as no backing down...these Women put the mens football game to shame, And if Hannah Botterman told me Saturday was Tuesday...I'd agree with her

I remember that game well for exactly that reason- it was a pathetic performance from Burnley that day. I would be embarrassed doing it. Blackburn’s big number 9, who had a decent game, was an embarrassment and he wasn’t alone. Going down looking like you have had a serious injury when there is chuff all wrong with you should result in some sort of retribution after the game, where someone will give you the type of injury you were pretending to have so you can tell the difference next time. I think Blackburn will struggle to put a team out this week with the 4 or 5 career ending injuries they picked up in the last few minutes. Best team still won though, making it even more unnecessary. 

[Tyler Durden]

If they hadn't have been 2-0 up would they have been wasting as much time?

We've only ourselves to blame for our inept first half performance.

I'd be raging if we were 2-0 up then threw it away due to poor game management.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Tyler Durden
Forgot word

[bcnram]

11 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

If they hadn't have been 2-0 up would they have been wasting as much time?

We've only ourselves to blame for our inept first half performance.

I'd be raging if we were 2-0 up then threw it away due to poor game management.

I agree, the fault does not sit with Blackburn who like any team 2 - 0 up will try and disrupt play. The only current way to reduce it is for the officials to stamp down on it as soon as it happens.

Moving forward, I think we should allow players to be treated while the game is going on, that alone will reduce players feigning injuries.

[Tyler Durden]

17 hours ago, Malty said:

Sorry, another thread from me after watching my first live game on a couple years….

One thing I noticed on Saturday was the level of time wasting that the Blackburn players did. Every time someone went down two physios (why two?) trotted onto the pitch. They treated the “injured” player for at least a minute, probably two or three and then trotted off whilst the other players hung around waiting. 

On one occasion, early in the second half, Sam Gallagher was down for probably three minutes apparently being treated. Meanwhile many of the Blackburn players were getting told by their manager what to do about Derby’s new formation. So much so that one guy (their left back) got waved over - clearly hadn’t realised the tactic - to get further instructions on what to do. For me as a fan it was infuriating that the referee did very little about it until very late on and I’m sure that the five minutes of extra time was not nearly enough against the level of time wasting.

I guess if it was Derby doing it then I’d turn a blind eye to it, but I really think that the football authorities need to look very hard at this gamesmanship and start handing  out bookings for obvious time wasting in future.

 

Just my view. Perhaps it’s just sour grapes?

Its not a new phenomena - I remember a decade ago when Nigel Clough was openly scathing in his criticism of Cywka when he gave the ball away in the 90th minute against Portsmouth only for them to go and equalise. 

Call it game management or ultra professional or gamesmanship but it's been part and parcel of the modern game for as long as I can recall. 

[BucksRam]

1 hour ago, bcnram said:

I agree, the fault does not sit with Blackburn who like any team 2 - 0 up will try and disrupt play. The only current way to reduce it is for the officials to stamp down on it as soon as it happens.

Moving forward, I think we should allow players to be treated while the game is going on, that alone will reduce players feigning injuries.

Absolutely this.  

One thing Derby's predicament has resulted in is greater scrutiny of anything and everything that goes against us.  A lot to be fair is warranted.  The way the game is managed is getting increasingly poor, and not just for us. The FA need to get a grip of it:

• Diving - we all know it goes on, even we've done it at times but it needs to be consistently dealt with. Currently it's a lottery and refs are generally weak and inconsistent. More yellows mean less players will do it. 
• Fouls - it's a physical game but the ease with which 6ft men fall over always pees me off - if a defender is holding off a player to let the ball go out into touch, suddenly they're pillars of strength.  The second a forward touches them in any other part of the pitch, they act like they're shot.   Refs really need to tighten up on this and wave on play more often. They also need to be consistent, which they're not, especially where yellows are concerned. 
• Throw Ins - how often do we see foul throws but they're not picked up: once in a blue moon.  And how often do players walk 10-15yds up the pitch to take it but not get sent back.  
• Time Wasting - all teams do it, and why not if you're winning and can get away with it.  Where this is blatantly done by wasting time with throw ins, a keeper taking too long on a goal kick, or, more frustratingly, feigned injuries, cards need to be shown. 
• Stop the Clock - like rugby have a timekeeper and stop the clock for injuries, VAR etc.  Don't leave it to refs, it's far too subjective.  We've been on the receiving end of this: Blackburn's time-wasting wasn't correctly accounted for when we were in the ascendancy. Peterborough's winner came after 10 mins of ET. 5 spurious minutes against Luton.
• Injuries (but no foul) - move to the rugby principle of letting the game go on whilst getting treatment.  If it's clearly serious then of course halt the game, i.e. head injury but if you carry on, most players will demonstrate amazing recovery skills.  

Not saying these are all ideal but at least addressing some of this would go some way to improving what is becoming an increasingly broken game. 

[kevinhectoring]

11 hours ago, Ellafella said:

@kevinhectoringIm not talking about physical burnout; I’m talking about “psychological “ burnout, so youre disagreeing about the wrong thing. 

Fair enough and I might not have read your post carefully enough, sorry. But I don’t agree with the proposition that Joz’s and Sibley’s form has fallen off because they have suffered ‘psychological’ burnout. I think the truth is:

- for the most part they have both been disappointing us for months albeit there has been the odd ray of sunshine. Last season as well as this.  On a brief look, the players ratings support this statement 

- Sibley has suffered from a lack of starts and sometimes being played out of position, Joz from being part of a dysfunctional front line. Management part of the problem for both but their own weaknesses also play a part

We have the likes of Shinnie, Knight, Bird, Byrne, Curtis, Jags who have all showed good form and character despite the turmoil. That’s the stuff we want, not psychobabble excuses for the ones who - for whatever reason - are not making the grade. 

[Ellafella]

5 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Fair enough and I might not have read your post carefully enough, sorry. But I don’t agree with the proposition that Joz’s and Sibley’s form has fallen off because they have suffered ‘psychological’ burnout. I think the truth is:

- for the most part they have both been disappointing us for months albeit there has been the odd ray of sunshine. Last season as well as this.  On a brief look, the players ratings support this statement 

- Sibley has suffered from a lack of starts and sometimes being played out of position, Joz from being part of a dysfunctional front line. Management part of the problem for both but their own weaknesses also play a part

We have the likes of Shinnie, Knight, Bird, Byrne, Curtis, Jags who have all showed good form and character despite the turmoil. That’s the stuff we want, not psychobabble excuses for the ones who - for whatever reason - are not making the grade. 

You lost me at that point. Was in reasonable concurrence with you until then. There’s a lot more to the Psychology of Sport than the way you describe, but given your attitude to it, it’s probably lost on you. Shame. 

[Crewton]

15 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Its not a new phenomena - I remember a decade ago when Nigel Clough was openly scathing in his criticism of Cywka when he gave the ball away in the 90th minute against Portsmouth only for them to go and equalise. 

Call it game management or ultra professional or gamesmanship but it's been part and parcel of the modern game for as long as I can recall. 

They're not really the same thing though. Clough's mantra was "kick it to the corners, don't try to play out from the back in the 90th minute". He was never an advocate of, say, feigning injury. 

No-one has a problem with game management within the spirit and rules - it's the fake stuff that the officials should be clamping down on (but rarely do) that frustrates everyone. 

[Grumpy Git]

On 01/11/2021 at 22:13, angieram said:

At the beginning of the season they were told to clamp down on it, and I think in one of our games (when we were the guilty party) 7 minutes were added.

 

Probably v Peterborough, which we managed to lose. 

I don't generally bear a grudge, but I've still not got over Colin's QPR getting a 2-2 draw at PP when we were 2-0 up after 90 mins. ?

[angieram]

19 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

Probably v Peterborough, which we managed to lose. 

I don't generally bear a grudge, but I've still not got over Colin's QPR getting a 2-2 draw at PP when we were 2-0 up after 90 mins. ?

Do you know, I always think of that QPR match when we are playing down the clock- still gives me nightmares! 

Then I think, when did we ever do that? I suppose the Leeds semi-final away was a complete turning of the tables, but we don't come from behind to snatch a point in added time very often. Came close on Saturday.

[The Key Club King]

22 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

No, blaming the refs is the correct option for two reasons. Firstly because they are the solution and secondly because they are allowing the teams, including us though we’re not as bad as others, to get away with it. 

If we wanted all the gamesmanship that is time wasting stopped then the refs have to clamp down on it. I doubt they see it as a problem. 

How quick should a throw-in be taken? There can be no set time for this as it depends where the ball is, who is taking the throw-in and from where and what type of throw they are doing.

How exactly can you determine the extent/validity of an injury in the last 10 minutes when muscles are tired? On Saturday there were four players down at the same time in inury time and when 3 of them realised that the keeper was down as well, the 3 all got up! How does a referee determine who was faking it? Give them all red/yellow cards? You are the ref...

Its not about the added time which should and usually does get replaced, it is disturbing the rythmn of the game and stopping the chasing team's momentum.  

And we are as bad as many others. Keep this in mind next time we are winning in the second half. We turn a blind eye to it as we gain the benefit and can't conceive that we would do the same as others. "Somebody Else's Problem (SEP)" as Douglas Adam's once wrote.  

The solution is sportsmanship. Collectively we have decided that winning is more important than competing and we will tolerate or ignore almost anything that gets in the way of winning. 

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, Ellafella said:

You lost me at that point. Was in reasonable concurrence with you until then. There’s a lot more to the Psychology of Sport than the way you describe, but given your attitude to it, it’s probably lost on you. Shame. 

Ok I don’t have knowledge of sports psychology. I do think there’s evidence that Joz has been affected by Bielik’s absence. But apart from that Rooney has done an excellent job keeping the dressing room positive

Yes the flippant words you highlighted in my post weren’t constructive apologies for that  

[Chris_Martin]

On 01/11/2021 at 22:07, Malty said:

Sorry, another thread from me after watching my first live game on a couple years….

One thing I noticed on Saturday was the level of time wasting that the Blackburn players did. Every time someone went down two physios (why two?) trotted onto the pitch. They treated the “injured” player for at least a minute, probably two or three and then trotted off whilst the other players hung around waiting. 

On one occasion, early in the second half, Sam Gallagher was down for probably three minutes apparently being treated. Meanwhile many of the Blackburn players were getting told by their manager what to do about Derby’s new formation. So much so that one guy (their left back) got waved over - clearly hadn’t realised the tactic - to get further instructions on what to do. For me as a fan it was infuriating that the referee did very little about it until very late on and I’m sure that the five minutes of extra time was not nearly enough against the level of time wasting.

I guess if it was Derby doing it then I’d turn a blind eye to it, but I really think that the football authorities need to look very hard at this gamesmanship and start handing  out bookings for obvious time wasting in future.

 

Just my view. Perhaps it’s just sour grapes?

 

Happens a lot in the premier league now as well unfortunately. The ref's can't do anything about it as they can't prove the player isn't injured. In other countries it's just classed as game management, (time wasting, saving energy, getting tactics across, not let opposition get any rhythm). Seems to have come into our leagues, probably because of the high number of foreign players now in the leagues. 

In England this type of game management is seen as a little unsporting, but abroad it's just part of the game.

[Chris_Martin]

3 hours ago, The Key Club King said:

How quick should a throw-in be taken? There can be no set time for this as it depends where the ball is, who is taking the throw-in and from where and what type of throw they are doing.

 

i have seen players booked for not taking a throw in quick enough though.