v Sheffield Wednesday (A) - Matchday Thread

[Parsnip]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

The key word was and not bringing in a viable replacement. I totally agree that if Martin chose to leave then we would be powerless to stop him it's the fact that we knew that was one scenario months in advance but still failed to bring anyone else in to replace. 

You have to assume that Serdar Son of Zlatan was the replacement but something went tits-up at the last minute so Kazim was brought in as an emergency. You have to assume that otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

All the players that were available post-lockdown to sign and we signed only Colin. 

This is what makes my blood boil. I didn't expect to get a 16 goal plus a season replacement for Martin but to get no one beggar's belief. 

[Finch]

9 minutes ago, Rev said:

Seeing as he was out of contract, how could we have stopped Martin leaving?

By not penny pinching.

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Rev said:

With resources tight, I think we did the best we could.

I don't think we did - I wonder about Cocu's choice. I can't understand how he dropped Clarke and went on about him not getting the rhythm of the game (or some such rubbish). Were there others who Cocu turned down to be left with Colin when Dursan went tits up?!

[Day]

14 minutes ago, rynny said:

Alan Wiley is the head of the championship referees. 

Probably still say he didn’t see it, was watching the other channel

[Ken Tram]

@David shared this WR tweet (but I couldn't work out how to quote just that bit) [and David may want to decide if I've pasted too much, bury it doesn't mention being copyrighted!]:

??: "It’s so obvious, I can see it from the touchline. I don’t know why there’s no communication between the officials. The fourth official told me he thought it was a penalty, so I don’t know why he can say it to me, but not the referee."

I Googled ref radio guidelines, and found the following from the Australian FA.

I have pasted a partial extract about communication below from the following document:

http://footballwest.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Communications-Gear-Instructions.pdf

It doesn't mention penalty claims, and also implies that more info is expected from the Assistant Refs than the fourth official. Guideline specifically lists what the Fourth Official might share.

The bit in bold in Guidelines 7 may imply that the ref may seek opinion (as opposed to having it offered) ... (?).

And the final notes imply that it's up to the ref to decide how to use the radios.

So, maybe our FA has a similar document, and the Fourth Official didn't feel able to share the penalty claim. (And I wonder if Fourth Officials are at the same "grade" as the other officials?)

Guidelines for Use

Below are some guidelines and best practice examples on their use:

Guideline 1 – Testing the Equipment

...

Guideline 2 – The Fourth Official 
In order to reduce the distraction to the referee and the assistant referees, the fourth official 
should use a ‘push to talk’ button. It is also useful for the referee to seek the fourth official’s 
input as to the credible minimum period of additional time to play at the end of each half, and 
for the official to ‘countdown’ the time at the end of each half.

Guideline 3 – Clear Communication

...

Guideline 4 – Offside situations 
... in judging whether a player(s) could be penalised for being in an offside position, should 
communicate to the referee “waiting”. When the assistant is sure a player is to be penalised 
he should communicate to the referee “offside”.  ...

Guideline 5 – Ball in & out of play 
Communication between the referee and assistant referees prior to any directional decision is 
helpful to give an early warning of the decision and to ensure that when decisions are made, 
the chances of any errors are reduced. It is helpful too, if the assistant referee communicates 
to the referee ‘ball in play’ so the referee can keep his focus on the potential dropping zone of 
the ball.

Guideline 6 – Set play situations 
It is helpful to the referee for the non-active assistant to watch the ball at free kick situations 
to ensure that no infringement is committed by the kicker. At the taking of the free kick or 
corner kick, communicate ‘ball in play’ so that the referee can keep his focus on the potential 
dropping zone of the ball.

Guideline 7 – Disciplinary sanctions 
Confirming disciplinary action is very important to all Match Officials – the referee should 
communicate the number of the player receiving a caution or a dismissal and the reason for 
this to all other Match Officials.

Where the referee is seeking clarification from the assistant 
referee, the referee should ask “What did you see?” and then make a decision on the advice 
offered. 

Guideline 8 – Goal 
Assistant referees can confirm to the referee that they are happy with a goal and that no 
infringement has occurred by saying “goal”. 

Guideline 9 – General communication 

Other helpful advice for referees is to communicate when a ball has been deliberately played 
back to his own goalkeeper by saying “back pass” this will alert the assistant referee if there is 
an infringement by the goalkeeper. 

Guideline 10 – Other situations 
Apart from the guidelines offered above, there may be times where the fourth official can use 
the communication system to provide further assistance. For example: 
 A team wishing to make a substitution; 
 Safety issues; 
 Misconduct by technical area personnel; 
 At half time and full time to warn the referee that there might be some issues in the 
tunnel area and to delay his entry into the tunnel as to save further confrontations. 
Assistant referees MUST be mindful that the Communication System is a supplementary tool 
and that the flag remains the primary tool.

Notes: The above guidelines have been designed to offer advice and guidance on the use of the 
Communication System. 

[Jimbo Ram]

18 minutes ago, James Pond said:

Are you saying Wednesday didn't deserve to score? or are you intimating that because we had the lions share of the ball, Missed several very good chances and also could/should have had a penalty...The object of football is to score goals, If the opposition score more than you in the game inevitably they win...so deserve too.

Deserve....to be worthy of something. Wednesday were not worthy of winning that football match, much of which they were totally outplayed. If Mick McCarthy was the Wendies manager he would have said he could hear the sirens. Obviously in the record books it will go down as a win for Wednesday but the reality is they were very fortunate to win that game having created next to nothing.

[Ghost of Clough]

32 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Not the new rules which came in half way through this season.

Which part of that rule are you claiming prevents a penalty being given?

[Day]

13 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

@David shared this WR tweet (but I couldn't work out how to quote just that bit) [and David may want to decide if I've pasted too much, bury it doesn't mention being copyrighted!]:

??: "It’s so obvious, I can see it from the touchline. I don’t know why there’s no communication between the officials. The fourth official told me he thought it was a penalty, so I don’t know why he can say it to me, but not the referee."

I Googled ref radio guidelines, and found the following from the Australian FA.

I have pasted a partial extract about communication below from the following document:

http://footballwest.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Communications-Gear-Instructions.pdf

It doesn't mention penalty claims, and also implies that more info is expected from the Assistant Refs than the fourth official. Guideline specifically lists what the Fourth Official might share.

The bit in bold in Guidelines 7 may imply that the ref may seek opinion (as opposed to having it offered) ... (?).

And the final notes imply that it's up to the ref to decide how to use the radios.

So, maybe our FA has a similar document, and the Fourth Official didn't feel able to share the penalty claim. (And I wonder if Fourth Officials are at the same "grade" as the other officials?)

Guidelines for Use

Below are some guidelines and best practice examples on their use:

Guideline 1 – Testing the Equipment

...

Guideline 2 – The Fourth Official 
In order to reduce the distraction to the referee and the assistant referees, the fourth official 
should use a ‘push to talk’ button. It is also useful for the referee to seek the fourth official’s 
input as to the credible minimum period of additional time to play at the end of each half, and 
for the official to ‘countdown’ the time at the end of each half.

Guideline 3 – Clear Communication

...

Guideline 4 – Offside situations 
... in judging whether a player(s) could be penalised for being in an offside position, should 
communicate to the referee “waiting”. When the assistant is sure a player is to be penalised 
he should communicate to the referee “offside”.  ...

Guideline 5 – Ball in & out of play 
Communication between the referee and assistant referees prior to any directional decision is 
helpful to give an early warning of the decision and to ensure that when decisions are made, 
the chances of any errors are reduced. It is helpful too, if the assistant referee communicates 
to the referee ‘ball in play’ so the referee can keep his focus on the potential dropping zone of 
the ball.

Guideline 6 – Set play situations 
It is helpful to the referee for the non-active assistant to watch the ball at free kick situations 
to ensure that no infringement is committed by the kicker. At the taking of the free kick or 
corner kick, communicate ‘ball in play’ so that the referee can keep his focus on the potential 
dropping zone of the ball.

Guideline 7 – Disciplinary sanctions 
Confirming disciplinary action is very important to all Match Officials – the referee should 
communicate the number of the player receiving a caution or a dismissal and the reason for 
this to all other Match Officials.

Where the referee is seeking clarification from the assistant 
referee, the referee should ask “What did you see?” and then make a decision on the advice 
offered. 

Guideline 8 – Goal 
Assistant referees can confirm to the referee that they are happy with a goal and that no 
infringement has occurred by saying “goal”. 

Guideline 9 – General communication 

Other helpful advice for referees is to communicate when a ball has been deliberately played 
back to his own goalkeeper by saying “back pass” this will alert the assistant referee if there is 
an infringement by the goalkeeper. 

Guideline 10 – Other situations 
Apart from the guidelines offered above, there may be times where the fourth official can use 
the communication system to provide further assistance. For example: 
 A team wishing to make a substitution; 
 Safety issues; 
 Misconduct by technical area personnel; 
 At half time and full time to warn the referee that there might be some issues in the 
tunnel area and to delay his entry into the tunnel as to save further confrontations. 
Assistant referees MUST be mindful that the Communication System is a supplementary tool 
and that the flag remains the primary tool.

Notes: The above guidelines have been designed to offer advice and guidance on the use of the 
Communication System. 

Here’s the FA

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-6---the-other-match-officials

[BrudeRAM]

5 minutes ago, David said:

Here’s the FA

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-6---the-other-match-officials

Here it is in writing. It was a penalty...not saying it was the onyl factor behind missing three points but i can’t understand anyone saying it was dubious

[Mick Brolly]

6 minutes ago, David said:

Here’s the FA

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-6---the-other-match-officials

It also shows how to land a helicopter. 

[DavesaRam]

Well we lost, and it was encouraging! That is two games in a row, both away, when we have Created way more chances than the home team. Only a matter of a few matches ago we weren't creating any. So there's progress.

What actually killed us was the stoppage for injury after about 30 minutes. The first for the guy who turned his ankle under pressure from Fozzy. And then suddenly Windass was down with a thigh strain. Yet nobody knew he was injured until the first guy got up. The cynic in me wonders if this was taking a chance to let the wind go out of our sails, because at the restart our fire and intensity had gone. I know he couldn't be treated at the same time as his team mate, but there was no sign of him being down and injured. I'm probably way off the mark here, but worse things have happened at sea, so to speak.

As for the goal, Marshall came out for the ball but was completely blocked by Beilik, and the ball fell kindly to Pattison. Another couple of inches elsewhere and it wouldn't have been a goal.

Wednesday did a job on us in the second half simply by putting an extra man on Beilik to stem the flow through the middle of the park, but we still got chances, with the one that evaded Sibley by a couple of inches being a case in point. The ref was reasonable, but I suspect still had the middle name of Homer, because he offered virtually no protection against th rough-housing being dished out, particularly against Knight. I got worried when Jason had had the cheek to ask the ref how many fouls before there is a card, because that is normally a sure sing that there would be a card for Knight for his first offence! Thankfully it didn't happen. The ref also gave absolutely nothing to Kasim, apart from that yellow, and re the penalty: we've already had our annual penalty, so don't be greedy. And no, things don't even themselves out over the season, or we will end with the entire 90 minutes taken up with us taking all the penalties we are owed.

In  the end, a 1 - 0 defeat was inevitable after 30 minutes had gone, and it was clear that the takeover would happen before we were going to score! The bottom line is that we have made progress, the defence is way better than it was, we ar creating chances, and a lot of chances at that, and our style of play is what we having been waiting for since I don't know when.

Lets hope the transfer window allows us to make the signings we need, and on  we go.

[angieram]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

NO ONE HAS MENTIONED THE PITCH  !!! Joz holds the ball close, moves it fast, lot of touches. SO hard if you're playing on a ploughed field 

 

[Finch]

3 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Well we lost, and it was encouraging! That is two games in a row, both away, when we have Created way more chances than the home team. Only a matter of a few matches ago we weren't creating any. So there's progress.

What actually killed us was the stoppage for injury after about 30 minutes. The first for the guy who turned his ankle under pressure from Fozzy. And then suddenly Windass was down with a thigh strain. Yet nobody knew he was injured until the first guy got up. The cynic in me wonders if this was taking a chance to let the wind go out of our sails, because at the restart our fire and intensity had gone. I know he couldn't be treated at the same time as his team mate, but there was no sign of him being down and injured. I'm probably way off the mark here, but worse things have happened at sea, so to speak.

As for the goal, Marshall came out for the ball but was completely blocked by Beilik, and the ball fell kindly to Pattison. Another couple of inches elsewhere and it wouldn't have been a goal.

Wednesday did a job on us in the second half simply by putting an extra man on Beilik to stem the flow through the middle of the park, but we still got chances, with the one that evaded Sibley by a couple of inches being a case in point. The ref was reasonable, but I suspect still had the middle name of Homer, because he offered virtually no protection against th rough-housing being dished out, particularly against Knight. I got worried when Jason had had the cheek to ask the ref how many fouls before there is a card, because that is normally a sure sing that there would be a card for Knight for his first offence! Thankfully it didn't happen. The ref also gave absolutely nothing to Kasim, apart from that yellow, and re the penalty: we've already had our annual penalty, so don't be greedy. And no, things don't even themselves out over the season, or we will end with the entire 90 minutes taken up with us taking all the penalties we are owed.

In  the end, a 1 - 0 defeat was inevitable after 30 minutes had gone, and it was clear that the takeover would happen before we were going to score! The bottom line is that we have made progress, the defence is way better than it was, we ar creating chances, and a lot of chances at that, and our style of play is what we having been waiting for since I don't know when.

Lets hope the transfer window allows us to make the signings we need, and on  we go.

Assuming someone has some money.

[rad1919]

This is tedious. We were on the wrong end of a debatable penalty decision.

The game should have been out of sight way before then.

Sheff Wed have nicked one but we did exactly the same to Norwich.

Let's accept it and move on.

[angieram]

1 hour ago, YouRams said:

Wasn’t there someone on here counting the amount of decisions against us this season? Be interested to hear how many that makes it.

Not to be a conspiracist but some of them are unexplainable and does look like they’re against us, especially if the 4th official is even seeing it, we got nothing all game from him either. 

I think it was @Ghost of Clough counting unsuccessful penalty appeals. He got to 16, but we got 17 - Sibley at Birmingham.

So, this is either 17, or we reset the counter at 1 and have to wait another 16 games for our next successful appeal. Yikes.

[Tyler Durden]

7 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

It also shows how to land a helicopter. 

That's the cover of a Beatles album am sure 

[Rev]

30 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I don't think we did - I wonder about Cocu's choice. I can't understand how he dropped Clarke and went on about him not getting the rhythm of the game (or some such rubbish). Were there others who Cocu turned down to be left with Colin when Dursan went tits up?!

How would we know?

Leaving aside the Clarke decision, as I can't see the relevance, the only striker we were linked with was Dursan. Whether the goalposts moved at the end of that proposed deal, no-one knows!

From everything in the public domain, we were left short handed, so Cocu threw what little weight he had left around and bought in CKR.

Not a bad decision with hindsight.

[Rev]

5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

That's the cover of a Beatles album am sure 

Help!

[Ellafella]

28 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Deserve....to be worthy of something. Wednesday were not worthy of winning that football match, much of which they were totally outplayed. If Mick McCarthy was the Wendies manager he would have said he could hear the sirens. Obviously in the record books it will go down as a win for Wednesday but the reality is they were very fortunate to win that game having created next to nothing.

In short { in a Mick McCarthy voice} “That were burglaree!”.