Back Cocu

[sage]

11 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

We had a similar discussion on the zoom call...me, @Monty, @sage, @Curtainsand @DarkFruitsRam7. 

It feels like we once again find ourselves conflicted. The better managers who deal with crises are those you wouldn't want for the long term but won't come just for a season eg allardyce.

We all wanted "the project " but it seems Cocus brains are frazzled and he cannot get the best out of the players.  He seemed to for a while, and we were improving, but its all gone to chaos recently. 

So who can we possibly get who would command respect and instil that slight streak of authoritarianism that Cocu’s team seems to lack. Who could organise us quickly and get everyone pulling together without being solely a "pragmatic" manager?

The best name we could come up with was Ralf Rangnick. 

We? ?

[Curtains]

20 minutes ago, Alpha said:

No idea, I'm not really into the financial side of things. I don't know what Derby have or can and can't do. Don't imagine relegation will be good for the bank 

Definitely. I think they must be going through the motions now. But I've always thought most the players are overrated with people claiming they're a top 6 squad. I don't see it. The Lampard squad was barely top 6 and that included Keogh, Mount, Wilson, Tomori etc. We haven't got better

But ultimately we have 10 players that stand level or behind the ball offering support. That is surely tactical. No wonder we never score. 

I agree with most of this post now Alpha  

 

I’m starting to agree with you about the players as well. 
 

 

 

[Tombo]

1 hour ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

The only thing I am worried about is the potential to get another Cocu type in, without the right appointment we will finish rock bottom. 

I think we will have no problem attracting managers for the job imo. Yes, we are dead bottom, but look at the squad we have.

Yes yes, I know, we're looking complete dogmess at the moment. But we do have a good squad and a good crop of academy players who will run through walls for you.

All a prospective manager needs is to keep us up. With this squad, it should be easy. And just for the record, I don't think it makes Cocu a bad manager that he isn't the man to do it. I just don't think its a good fit stylistically.

Many many managers would kill for the Derby job because you need only come in, freshen up the hearts and minds of players, offer a different tactical direction and even if your methods aren't all that effective, it really should be no problem to stay up. With this lot? No problem.

But we need to make the change now to give ourselves time. If we make the change before the next game, I think we will stay up.

[brady1993]

16 minutes ago, Alpha said:

No idea, I'm not really into the financial side of things. I don't know what Derby have or can and can't do. Don't imagine relegation will be good for the bank 

Definitely. I think they must be going through the motions now. But I've always thought most the players are overrated with people claiming they're a top 6 squad. I don't see it. The Lampard squad was barely top 6 and that included Keogh, Mount, Wilson, Tomori etc. We haven't got better

But ultimately we have 10 players that stand level or behind the ball offering support. That is surely tactical. No wonder we never score. 

Whether we have or haven't got better I think largely depends on how good the likes of Sibley, Bird, Knight and Buchanan turn out to be. Get the first two of those playing like they were last season, get Ibe fit, get Bielik fit and I think it's a squad capable of top 6. Besides I don't you have to be blessed with talent to get a top 6 position (take Cardiff last year for example), in fact I think you can make the argument that with the squad and money he had available Lampard could have done better. 

Last season we finished 6 points off top 6 and that's after the circus that was last season, we largely improved in the close season and so I don't think the expectation of challenging for top 6 is ludicrous. (Obviously it's extremely unlikely now)

I just think we need a manager to get that extra bit out of individual performances and the team as a whole.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Ambitious said:

I genuinely think this is the strongest squad we've had since 14/15 which makes our position in the table even more sickening. It's also another reason why I can't defend Cocu. You can look at the strikers and say we're lacking, perhaps you're right, but you can current international starters on the wings playing as inverted forwards. Waghorn has been consistent in this division throughout his whole career. The depth is a problem, not addressed, but we also have the highest scoring forward in the highest level of academy football not even making the squad. 

The quality of this team, edit: the players within the team, is more than good enough. 

Do you really? 

I think we have one of the most ordinary bunch in some time. I think Lampard had an ordinary bunch but introduced Mount, Tomori and Wilson. He also had Keogh. 

Rowett had Vydra and Weimann which suited his style of play. Plus still had Keogh. 

Bradley Johnson offered the bite and mobility. He was great in the air. A poor player imo but he'd still walk into our midfield. 

Our striker is Waghorn. Martin offered something for the ball to stick to while Waghorn who is one of my favourite players is a bit of a try-hard. He's dependable but more graft than magic in his boots

Marriott was the dud that Bris got ripped for. Barely ever able to put a run together. Kept promising to be a deadly poacher but Lampard didn't fancy him, Cocu neither and then when he got chance to prove them wrong he was useless. And now even he's gone. 

Davies and Forsyth have only got worse or stayed the same. 

Shinnie is what Bryson in DM used to look like. 

I think Cameron Jerome, Andi Weimmann, Bradley Johnson, Richard Keogh, Craig Bryson, Chris Martin would get in this team. And they were all players we were hoping to improve from. 

Vydra would look like Messi. Even Palmer's performance under Rowett would probably be a higher level than what Holmes produces consistently (admittedly when in form he looks much better) 

Just my opinion. I think a lot of them should be embarrassed that our teenagers are now leading the team. 

[SamUltraRam]

Based on the fact that a 'Cocu' type manager (passive & technical) isn't working what do we need

1) a manager that can inspire through 'happy' coaching and positive play ala Steve Mac

2) a poohousery type manager to just get results ala Warnock, Allardyce

3) a manager who plays a system unlike most others ala Bielsa

My worry is this decision will be taken by a new ownership group who have no previous experience of football, especially the Championship & who may have been star struck by 'owning' Wayne Rooney

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

13 minutes ago, sage said:

We? ?

Yes -collective effort. 

You proposed the name, Curtains found 8 pictures and the rest of us passed a resolution to determine whether he more closely resembles a young Scwarzenegger or Herr Flick from allo allo.

Democracy and the will of the people in action ?

 

[Curtains]

18 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Do you really? 

I think we have one of the most ordinary bunch in some time. I think Lampard had an ordinary bunch but introduced Mount, Tomori and Wilson. He also had Keogh. 

Rowett had Vydra and Weimann which suited his style of play. Plus still had Keogh. 

Bradley Johnson offered the bite and mobility. He was great in the air. A poor player imo but he'd still walk into our midfield. 

Our striker is Waghorn. Martin offered something for the ball to stick to while Waghorn who is one of my favourite players is a bit of a try-hard. He's dependable but more graft than magic in his boots

Marriott was the dud that Bris got ripped for. Barely ever able to put a run together. Kept promising to be a deadly poacher but Lampard didn't fancy him, Cocu neither and then when he got chance to prove them wrong he was useless. And now even he's gone. 

Davies and Forsyth have only got worse or stayed the same. 

Shinnie is what Bryson in DM used to look like. 

I think Cameron Jerome, Andi Weimmann, Bradley Johnson, Richard Keogh, Craig Bryson, Chris Martin would get in this team. And they were all players we were hoping to improve from. 

Vydra would look like Messi. Even Palmer's performance under Rowett would probably be a higher level than what Holmes produces consistently (admittedly when in form he looks much better) 

Just my opinion. I think a lot of them should be embarrassed that our teenagers are now leading the team. 

I’m worried about Sibley as he never looks up for options and gets booked all the time. 

He’s frustrating player to me. 
 

Am I wrong about this if so tell me and what is his best position 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me if I’m wrong mate because I would like your opinion 

[Curtains]

6 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Yes -collective effort. 

You proposed the name, Curtains found 8 pictures and the rest of us passed a resolution to determine whether he more closely resembles a young Scwarzenegger or Herr Flick from allo allo.

Democracy and the will of the people in action ?

 

I think the point Sage is making is he was the only one who knew about Klopps mate. 
 

So it was totally his suggestion.

 

[brady1993]

10 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Do you really? 

I think we have one of the most ordinary bunch in some time. I think Lampard had an ordinary bunch but introduced Mount, Tomori and Wilson. He also had Keogh. 

Rowett had Vydra and Weimann which suited his style of play. Plus still had Keogh. 

Bradley Johnson offered the bite and mobility. He was great in the air. A poor player imo but he'd still walk into our midfield. 

Our striker is Waghorn. Martin offered something for the ball to stick to while Waghorn who is one of my favourite players is a bit of a try-hard. He's dependable but more graft than magic in his boots

Marriott was the dud that Bris got ripped for. Barely ever able to put a run together. Kept promising to be a deadly poacher but Lampard didn't fancy him, Cocu neither and then when he got chance to prove them wrong he was useless. And now even he's gone. 

Davies and Forsyth have only got worse or stayed the same. 

Shinnie is what Bryson in DM used to look like. 

I think Cameron Jerome, Andi Weimmann, Bradley Johnson, Richard Keogh, Craig Bryson, Chris Martin would get in this team. And they were all players we were hoping to improve from. 

Vydra would look like Messi. Even Palmer's performance under Rowett would probably be a higher level than what Holmes produces consistently (admittedly when in form he looks much better) 

Just my opinion. I think a lot of them should be embarrassed that our teenagers are now leading the team. 

I think you raise some decent points but I somewhat agree with @Ambitious as well. Putting this transfer window to one side for the time being, what you are alluding to here (and I've seen you state more explicitly elsewhere) is that a lot of the senior pros are average, ordinary championship players. Which I largely agree with. The talent is primarily with the academy players and I think we were a bit too quick to sideline Bird and Sibley in particular this season. I find it annoying that some senior players were quite a bit worse during that period and yet they've managed to have decent chances since that point with those two reduced to bit parts.

The signings we made this summer I'd contend for the most part wouldn't look out of place in sides in and around the top 6, combine that with some of the academy talent and a few of the better senior players and we should have been looking higher up the table. We just need to reinject a bit more confidence, find the right balance and cast off the funk we've found ourselves in. 

[Jourdan]

Why would Ralf Rangnick come here?

He’s that well thought of in the game that he was lined up for the Milan job last year.

If Pioli hadn’t got the team alive and kicking last season, that’s where he’d be right now.

I suspect he will hold out for a much more high profile job.

[Van der MoodHoover]

23 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I think the point Sage is making is he was the only one who knew about Klopps mate. 
 

So it was totally his suggestion.

 

Don't break ranks and stroke his ego any more Curtains. 

And I thought everyone has heard of Rafe Ragnarok........?

[Jimbo Ram]

8 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Don't break ranks and stroke his ego any more Curtains. 

And I thought everyone has heard of Rafe Ragnarok........?

Great? player, especially at the ?? 

[Inverurie Ram]

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Really admire yours & @Inverurie Ram stance, even if I personally see no way back now.

Whats the key to turning around results in your opinion?

It's a game. It's a sport. It's a game that we have to get confident in and can get confident in and dictate and control and regain confidence in. A goal will lift confidence and more goals will be achieved if we all believe in ourselves.

We've mentioned the likes of Wolves, Sheff Utd and Leeds having to drop leagues and rebuild. Hull City are regaining their confidence, teams like Sunderland appear to have a lot more going on behind the scenes and are taking as long as Leeds to come back. Their is no magic wand in this game, it comes down to things I've mentioned in the past, strength, reading situations, decision making, support, anticipation and our players doing a lot more than they are currently doing in a positive manner, to play in a confident manner and gain the confidence that wins football matches.

We are bottom of the league now but that can change as quickly as it took us to get there and that's football.

We need to get...........

and then this will follow, results will change from negative to positive and we can all admire our lovely Derby County play football again.

 

[BondJovi]

48 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Do you really? 

I think we have one of the most ordinary bunch in some time. I think Lampard had an ordinary bunch but introduced Mount, Tomori and Wilson. He also had Keogh. 

Rowett had Vydra and Weimann which suited his style of play. Plus still had Keogh. 

Bradley Johnson offered the bite and mobility. He was great in the air. A poor player imo but he'd still walk into our midfield. 

Our striker is Waghorn. Martin offered something for the ball to stick to while Waghorn who is one of my favourite players is a bit of a try-hard. He's dependable but more graft than magic in his boots

Marriott was the dud that Bris got ripped for. Barely ever able to put a run together. Kept promising to be a deadly poacher but Lampard didn't fancy him, Cocu neither and then when he got chance to prove them wrong he was useless. And now even he's gone. 

Davies and Forsyth have only got worse or stayed the same. 

Shinnie is what Bryson in DM used to look like. 

I think Cameron Jerome, Andi Weimmann, Bradley Johnson, Richard Keogh, Craig Bryson, Chris Martin would get in this team. And they were all players we were hoping to improve from. 

Vydra would look like Messi. Even Palmer's performance under Rowett would probably be a higher level than what Holmes produces consistently (admittedly when in form he looks much better) 

Just my opinion. I think a lot of them should be embarrassed that our teenagers are now leading the team. 

Aced it. The young players give this squad a lot of potential but beyond that...

I am actually worried that the level of our senior players has been so poor. There doesn't seem to be any shame that most are being shown up by Knight and Buchanan. The senior players should be setting the example, not the other way round.

Never doubted the young players playing for the manager. But after that.. 

[TuffLuff]

5 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Really admire yours & @Inverurie Ram stance, even if I personally see no way back now.

Whats the key to turning around results in your opinion?

I wrote a more rambling post on this yesterday, but I think Cocu has to have more faith in his own project now. Build his team in the players he has brought in, reward the young players who haven’t let him down. Move away from the old guard of players we’ve seen season in season out have one good game in five, they aren’t helping the club move forward. Also ignore all external opinions because it’s not helping anyone at the minute.

It’s going to be a tough season, it probably always was going to be as our financial situation going into it is showing it’s head. Teams that have had a bit of money have spent it on young players who press, in a way trying to replicate the Leeds model, we have not been able to do that. So changing managers in my opinion will change little, we are going to have to take it on the chin and battle our ways out of our current predicament.

[TuffLuff]

5 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

I had been until yesterday. Are you prepared for us to go down to League 1 as part of the fix ?

No, but I don’t think a new manager is going to be an automatic remedy. The problems the club have on the pitch run deeper than than a managerial change in my opinion

[GboroRam]

We may have little choice. We sold the stadium to stay within FFP / P&S - I doubt we can afford to pay off the manager and his staff and bring more in without crashing it again.

I foresee a difficult period ahead.

[hintonsboots]

4 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Yes -collective effort. 

You proposed the name, Curtains found 8 pictures and the rest of us passed a resolution to determine whether he more closely resembles a young Scwarzenegger or Herr Flick from allo allo.

Democracy and the will of the people in action ?

 

I can hear the cries now. A top hatted lunatic outside Pride Park, detectable in every interview shouting “ Stop Rangnick “.

[Jimbo Ram]

21 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

No, but I don’t think a new manager is going to be an automatic remedy. The problems the club have on the pitch run deeper than than a managerial change in my opinion

I can see what you mean. I have been vocal in saying chopping and changing managers every year is not the answer. However, I think confidence is totally shot and I can’t see Cocu turning it around. Such a shame ?