Back Cocu

[Comrade 86]

18 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

I think a few good performances, even defeats but with attacking football (some shots on target etc) may see a few change their minds, me included. 

Who are you and what have you done with @TexasRam ?

[Mick Brolly]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I'm still batting for team Cocu.

It's 2020 I'm batting for both sides. 

[Coneheadjohn]

7 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

It's 2020 I'm batting for both sides. 

[Comrade 86]

10 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Even look at your post just now where you have suggested Cocu will have the last laugh over fans of this club.

The last laugh? Cocu is not out to prove Derek from Ripley wrong and make our own fans look foolish. I would be worried if he was. 

Well clearly you're ok with Cocu being called a 'stupid Dutch Bamford' then, if you're so surprised I'm at odds with such comments. When it comes to those who have derided him, I'd be delighted to see him have the last laugh. As for this being his raison d'etre and the whole spiel about how you hope not? Seriously! 

Anyway, great chat ?

[Gone]

7 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Who are you and what have you done with @TexasRam ?

He’s in my cellar, and will never see the light of day again. 
 

Seriously  I no longer want to make people sick with my views. All I want is to see good football and a bit of excitement, I’m not really bothered if it’s Phil Cocu or Phil Mitchell delivering it. That’s all I want, so I’ll back him all the way to get that, when the players come back from injury and new signings are fit and ready I’m sure that is what we will see. So let’s give him the chance to deliver. 

[BarrowRam]

Problem is everyone wants success straight away. How many managers have we had in the last couple of years. We’ve got a lot of players to come in to the side and hopefully that will be the start of us climbing the table.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

I back Cocu 100%, but the fans the OP is arguing against here ultimately wouldn't be calling for him to be sacked if they were seeing something different on the pitch.

Performances need to improve! 

Let's not forget that you can back a manager but also rightfully call out poor football/decision making when it happens ??

 

Performances need to improve, but certain things need to be in place first in order for that to happen.

Going forward we were actually pretty good against Blackburn and created a number of good chances, we should probably have scored 3 ourselves. The defensive performance / desire to defend (from the whole team) was shambolic though, as people rightly pointed out, and nobody argued against.

We've taken steps to address that, but ultimately making us more solid that will come at the cost of creating chances at the other end until we get the balance right. That balance is harder to achieve when we don't have our best attacking options available and the backups are kids, good kids, but kids nonetheless.

There's a demand for change & improvement, but then there's no desire to see it through. You make a change - some things improve, some weaken - but the focus just switches entirely onto what has weakened and the criticism continues unabated.

Is it unreasonable to expect that people who were so vocal in their criticism of the Blackburn game might acknowledge that we were at least better defensively (on the whole) against Norwich & Watford and include that in their analysis of the match, instead of complaints about the number of shots on target, the lack of attacking intent, a weekly reminder of how much they hate watching us and in one case (thankfully limited to that) distasteful personal comments about the manager?

It's that lack of a break from the criticism, with no quarter given, which grates on people - not that people are being critical in the first place.

I understand the argument that we struggled to create many chances last season as well, even with the missing players available, so people will get antsy when they see more performances this season where we struggle to create.

It's important to keep context and perspective in mind though, there has been a lot of upheaval since even the end of last season which has contributed to us taking a step backwards, but there's also an expectation & desire to see us make progress at the same time and the two things really don't mesh well.

 

[Jourdan]

24 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Well clearly you're ok with Cocu being called a 'stupid Dutch Bamford' then, if you're so surprised I'm at odds with such comments. When it comes to those who have derided him, I'd be delighted to see him have the last laugh. As for this being his raison d'etre and the whole spiel about how you hope not? Seriously! 

Anyway, great chat ?

I’ve been on this forum long enough to know that any manager is there to be shot at, even the good ones!

So while I am not endorsing such comments, I know that people on here will say silly things when things are emotionally charged and I know not to take very much notice or get worked up by such comments.

What people say in the heat of the moment and how they actually really feel can be two different things. If that wasn’t the case, I’d have stopped talking to my own mother 10 years ago.

I don’t think any manager is immune from this treatment either. I’ve read worse comments about some of our former managers over the years. Billy Davies being a prime example.

Fans tend to have a love-hate relationship with managers and Cocu will be well aware of that and knows that people will come around if he starts getting things right.

[IslandExile]

3 minutes ago, Coconut said:

 

Performances need to improve, but certain things need to be in place first in order to do that.

Going forward we were actually pretty good against Blackburn and created a number of good chances, we should probably have scored 3 ourselves. The defensive performance / desire to defend (from the whole team) was shambolic though, as people rightly pointed out, and nobody argued against.

We've taken steps to address that, but ultimately making us more solid that will come at the cost of creating chances at the other end until we get the balance right. That balance is harder to achieve when we don't have our best attacking options available and the backups are kids, good kids, but kids nonetheless.

There's a demand for change & improvement, but then there's no desire to see it through. You make a change - some things improve, some weaken - the focus of criticism just switches entirely onto what has weakened.

Is it unreasonable to expect that people who were so vocal in their criticism of the Blackburn game might acknowledge that we were at least better defensively (on the whole) against Norwich & Watford and include that in their analysis of the match, instead of complaints about the number of shots on target, the lack of attacking intent, a weekly reminder of how much they hate watching us and in one case (thankfully limited to that) distasteful personal comments about the manager?

It's that lack of a break from the criticism, with no quarter given, which grates on people - not that people are being critical in the first place.

I understand the argument that we struggled to create many chances last season as well, even with the missing players available, so people will get antsy when they see more performances this season where we struggle to create.

It's important to keep context and perspective in mind though, there has been a lot of upheaval since even the end of last season which has contributed to us taking a step backwards, but there's also an expectation & desire to see us make progress at the same time and the two things really don't mesh well.

 

Brilliant, well reasoned post @Coconut.

I agree constructive criticism should always be welcomed. Sadly, I think it's now spilled over into snipes and digs, increasingly personal, from both sides of the Cocu divide.

On chances created, I believe that Cocu is addressing that by bringing in Joswiak and Ibe. We need those, along with Lawrence and Waggy available and playing. That, in itself, would take less pressure off the midfield and defence. Basically, a well balanced side.

[Nuwtfly]

2 hours ago, Coconut said:

 

Performances need to improve, but certain things need to be in place first in order for that to happen.

Going forward we were actually pretty good against Blackburn and created a number of good chances, we should probably have scored 3 ourselves. The defensive performance / desire to defend (from the whole team) was shambolic though, as people rightly pointed out, and nobody argued against.

We've taken steps to address that, but ultimately making us more solid that will come at the cost of creating chances at the other end until we get the balance right. That balance is harder to achieve when we don't have our best attacking options available and the backups are kids, good kids, but kids nonetheless.

There's a demand for change & improvement, but then there's no desire to see it through. You make a change - some things improve, some weaken - but the focus just switches entirely onto what has weakened and the criticism continues unabated.

Is it unreasonable to expect that people who were so vocal in their criticism of the Blackburn game might acknowledge that we were at least better defensively (on the whole) against Norwich & Watford and include that in their analysis of the match, instead of complaints about the number of shots on target, the lack of attacking intent, a weekly reminder of how much they hate watching us and in one case (thankfully limited to that) distasteful personal comments about the manager?

It's that lack of a break from the criticism, with no quarter given, which grates on people - not that people are being critical in the first place.

I understand the argument that we struggled to create many chances last season as well, even with the missing players available, so people will get antsy when they see more performances this season where we struggle to create.

It's important to keep context and perspective in mind though, there has been a lot of upheaval since even the end of last season which has contributed to us taking a step backwards, but there's also an expectation & desire to see us make progress at the same time and the two things really don't mesh well.

 

I don't disagree with a word of this, I'm merely suggesting that many of the issues posters raise about Cocu (I won't name names) are justified, especially when we regularly see other managers essentially achieve more with a lot less.

He needs his best players, he needs to get that balance right, I totally agree. 

But he's had time, he's had three windows - he also needs to start showing us as supporters that his ideas work in this league and that he's taking us forward, because in recent times, we've looked like we've been going backwards.

[richinspain]

6 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I don't disagree with a word of this, I'm merely suggesting that many of the issues posters raise about Cocu (I won't name names) are justified, especially when we regularly see other managers essentially achieve more with a lot less.

He needs his best players, he needs to get that balance right, I totally agree. 

But he's had time, he's had three windows - he also needs to start showing us as supporters that his ideas work in this league and that he's taking us forward, because in recent times, we've looked like we've been going backwards.

He's had one and a half windows ?

[Topram]

I’m backing him, we got were we did with Lampard because of Mount Wilson and Tomori, it’s also pretty clear we are skint 

[RamNut]

2 minutes ago, Topram said:

I’m backing him, we got were we did with Lampard because of Mount Wilson and Tomori, it’s also pretty clear we are skint 

I can’t see the connection, but carry on.....

 

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

I don't disagree with a word of this, I'm merely suggesting that many of the issues posters raise about Cocu (I won't name names) are justified, especially when we regularly see other managers essentially achieve more with a lot less.

He needs his best players, he needs to get that balance right, I totally agree. 

But he's had time, he's had three windows - he also needs to start showing us as supporters that his ideas work in this league and that he's taking us forward, because in recent times, we've looked like we've been going backwards.

Seems fair, although I would say...

1  - and some aren't, some aren't 'issues' so much as preferences. Like fans of a band calling their new album crap and writing a poor review because it doesn't sound like they thought it would in their head. The list of genuine issues does currently outweigh the list of positives, but some of them have rather substantial mitigating circumstances, wouldn't you agree?

2 - I just see that as a cliched & lazy term tbh - our situation isn't the same as other clubs. Show me a manager who's had 30+ goals taken out of his team in one fell swoop and then been able to achieve results in the short term. Other manager's do get better results from lesser quality players, but they're unlikely to get them with a squad as unbalanced as ours has been. 

2a - I've seen people point to the job the Reading & Bristol City managers have done in a short space of time, but neither of those teams needed an overhaul. Bristol have got a very talented squad and a player like Nakhi Wells to score their goals. Reading have the archetypal 'fast, strong, athletic' Championship players suited to playing a direct game - it's easier to maximise the talents of a group  where there's a collective strength than one made up of disparate parts who don't really fit in any one particular way of playing. 

3 - 3 windows is technically correct, but with 1 coming in after his appointment with no time to assess the squad and 1 under a soft embargo where the best the club could muster up for him (Rooney aside, obviously) was a reserve goalkeeper & a winger who didn't really want to be here & was blocking the progress of our youngsters you can easily say that there's only really 1 window which has been 'his' - the latest one - and even that's had its controversies (to say the least!).

The jury's still out on it, but there are promising signs from 3 of the signings.

4 - Yep, and that's the next stage. As per the previous post - certain things need to be put in place for this to happen, as agreed. Whether people will actually allow it to happen without pooping the bed and jumping on Cocu's back after every single game remains to be seen.

5 - that's because we have been going backwards! I don't think anyone will say that we haven't taken a step back since that period of 12/20 games won last season - but why is that? See points 1 through 4, together with some of the critiques presented by others (mainly tinkering & team selections)

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

4 hours ago, Van Cone De Head said:

Your hair's grown a bit mate. No wonder you don't join us on the Zoom any more - it must take you all saturday night to get your  hair right....?

[Coneheadjohn]

1 minute ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Your hair's grown a bit mate. No wonder you don't join us on the Zoom any more - it must take you all saturday night to get your  hair right....?

I always look like that late on a Saturday,love my Freddie outfit.

I’ll be back when things settle down mate.

[Nuwtfly]

5 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Seems fair, although I would say...

1  - and some aren't, some aren't 'issues' so much as preferences. Like fans of a band calling their new album crap and writing a poor review because it doesn't sound like they thought it would in their head. The list of genuine issues does currently outweigh the list of positives, but some of them have rather substantial mitigating circumstances, wouldn't you agree?

2 - I just see that as a cliched & lazy term tbh - our situation isn't the same as other clubs. Show me a manager who's had 30+ goals taken out of his team in one fell swoop and then been able to achieve results in the short term. Other manager's do get better results from lesser quality players, but they're unlikely to get them with a squad as unbalanced as ours has been. 

2a - I've seen people point to the job the Reading & Bristol City managers have done in a short space of time, but neither of those teams needed an overhaul. Bristol have got a very talented squad and a player like Nakhi Wells to score their goals. Reading have the archetypal 'fast, strong, athletic' Championship players suited to playing a direct game - it's easier to maximise the talents of a group  where there's a collective strength than one made up of disparate parts who don't really fit in any one particular way of playing.

3 - 3 window? Technically correct, but with 1 coming in after his appointment with no time to assess the squad and 1 under a soft embargo where the best the club could muster up for him (Rooney aside, obviously) was a reserve goalkeeper & a winger who didn't really want to be here & was blocking the progress of our youngsters you can easily say that there's only really 1 window which has been 'his' - the latest one - and even that's had its controversies (to say the least!).

The jury's still out on that on, but there are promising signs from 3 of the signings.

4 - Yep, and that's the next stage. As per the previous post - certain things need to be put in place for this to happen, as agreed.

5 - that's because we have been going backwards! I don't think anyone will say that we haven't taken a step back since that period of 12/20 games won - but why is that? See points 1 through 4, together with some of the critiques presented by others (mainly tinkering & team selections)

 

 

1 - Yeah, some are, some aren't. I'm not trying to stand up for all the dafties on here who have been banging the Cocu Out drum for absolutely ages for wildly unsubstantial reasons. I'm just pointing out that some of the criticisms are justified. That's all. One person could argue we should cut him some slack because of the injuries (this is fair enough and true). Another might say that the football has been turgid for the majority of his tenure, full strength team or not (there's also an argument for this).  For what it's worth, I thought we were getting better and better last season, and then we taildived, and now I'm just very surprised at how poor we've been. I don't think there's any one reason for that; it's a combination of injuries, recruitment, tactical decisions, player desire, etc. Posters can decide for themselves which should be laid at Cocu's door and which shouldn't, I think!

2 - I resent your accusation that it's a cliched and lazy term, especially as you literally make my point for me a few sentences later ("Other manager's do get better results from lesser quality players"). Yes, our situation isn't the same as other clubs...but no club is in the exact same situation as another, is it? And yes, you can say our squad is unbalanced, but this perception that it's unbalanced comes down to a) recruitment and b) how a manager sets the team up. You can decide for yourself which of those two Cocu is responsible for...he's certainly responsible for B. You could again suggest that the injuries play a part here (I'd agree with you on that). My point here is that every squad is technically unbalanced because it depends on how the manager is setting that side up!

2a - I wouldn't point at either of those sides as an example of what I'm referring to as they've not been long in the job. Let's come back to them at the end of the season and see how they've gotten on. I suspect they won't be the top two.

3 - Yep, three windows. Certainly three challenging windows for different reasons, but three windows nonetheless. Plenty of signings in that time, too. The jury is out on a lot of them.

4 - don't think I need to respond to this one as we're in agreement.

5 - this post would double in size if I started going into why I think we've gone backwards...so let's just agree that we have a move on ?

[Abu Dhabi Ram]

14 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I love the sentiment of the thread, but if Cocu was showing enough signs that he was the right man for the job, threads like this wouldn’t be needed.

Derby fans are very opinionated but when they see something’s cooking, they’ll get right behind it without a moment’s hesitation.

It only took a few weeks for a large section of Derby fans to backtrack and admit they were wrong about McClaren - myself included - and start going to the barber’s to work on a hair island of their own.

At the end of the day, the best way to get backing from supporters and the best way to earn time is by winning football matches and lifting spirits and uniting the fan base. Right now the mood is extremely low and the fan base is fractured.

Yes, Cocu carries himself well and is very much someone you would describe as genteel, but it’s not Miss Universe he is competing in, it’s the Championship. You don’t get extra points on the board for being a nice, well-presented chap.

One thing I don’t understand is the suggestion that our very own fans are wanting him to fail or taking pleasure from our plight. I really don’t think that’s the case.

If we win on Tuesday, everyone will be delighted. If we win on Saturday too, everyone will be delighted. 

We are all Derby fans and we all want what’s best for the club. The opinions are different, but the objectives are the same. I think many people are starting to lose sight of that.

What is sad is our fans that create new accounts just to have a pop when we are not doing so well. You have wonder whether these are fans, wums or just... well...

[May Contain Nuts]

46 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

2 - I resent your accusation that it's a cliched and lazy term, especially as you literally make my point for me a few sentences later ("Other manager's do get better results from lesser quality players"). Yes, our situation isn't the same as other clubs...but no club is in the exact same situation as another, is it? And yes, you can say our squad is unbalanced, but this perception that it's unbalanced comes down to a) recruitment and b) how a manager sets the team up. You can decide for yourself which of those two Cocu is responsible for...he's certainly responsible for B. You could again suggest that the injuries play a part here (I'd agree with you on that). My point here is that every squad is technically unbalanced because it depends on how the manager is setting that side up!

 

Sorry, pet hate!

Maybe a better description would be that I see it as one of those "catch-all" terms that lots of people bring out specifically to win arguments, as if it stands up to all scrutiny, all the time when it really doesn't - to a lesser degree "you make your own luck" and "there's no smoke without fire".

I don't think that's what you were trying to do, (understandably it's impossible to cover all bases  and give full examples in a quick forum post) but use of the term still irritates me, and there's nothing either of us can do about that!?

In turn you saying that "no club is in the exact same situation as another" sort of makes my point for me - it's all just perception, really. It's very difficult to make an informed judgement unless you've specifically been paying attention to another club and know their situation.

I would post more in response to the specifics of your post, but seeing as we're generally in agreement it's probably best to curtail this discussion here! I've completely forgotten to do any work!

 

[Nuwtfly]

7 minutes ago, Coconut said:

I would post more in response to the specifics of your post, but seeing as we're generally in agreement it's probably best to curtail this discussion here! I've completely forgotten to do any work!

Good luck with getting your work done. If you figure out how to do it (get work done) let me know...I've been trying to figure that out for about 7 months!