Back Cocu

[LeedsCityRam]

35 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

I wrote a more rambling post on this yesterday, but I think Cocu has to have more faith in his own project now. Build his team in the players he has brought in, reward the young players who haven’t let him down. Move away from the old guard of players we’ve seen season in season out have one good game in five, they aren’t helping the club move forward. Also ignore all external opinions because it’s not helping anyone at the minute.

It’s going to be a tough season, it probably always was going to be as our financial situation going into it is showing it’s head. Teams that have had a bit of money have spent it on young players who press, in a way trying to replicate the Leeds model, we have not been able to do that. So changing managers in my opinion will change little, we are going to have to take it on the chin and battle our ways out of our current predicament.

Would agree with a lot of that & I've made similar points elsewhere. Can handle bad results but the removal of youth from the team & the move away from his favoured formation and style of play, suggest to me Cocu has lost his principles & hit a brick wall.

It was the introduction of Max Bird to the team in Jan (along with Clarke's return from injury) that signalled our turnaround last season and believe Bird & Sibley are key to the team turning it around this season, irrespective of whether Cocu survives or not.

Rooney is the elephant in the room though & I fully believe his presence is now corrosive to the team. Its clear he starts no matter what & plays where he pleases...what we dont know is whether that's Cocu in thrall to his odd moment of genius or whether its contractual. Either way, it needs sorting because the team are suffering.

[TuffLuff]

6 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

We had a similar discussion on the zoom call...me, @Monty, @sage, @Curtainsand @DarkFruitsRam7. 

It feels like we once again find ourselves conflicted. The better managers who deal with crises are those you wouldn't want for the long term but won't come just for a season eg allardyce.

We all wanted "the project " but it seems Cocus brains are frazzled and he cannot get the best out of the players.  He seemed to for a while, and we were improving, but its all gone to chaos recently. 

So who can we possibly get who would command respect and instil that slight streak of authoritarianism that Cocu’s team seems to lack. Who could organise us quickly and get everyone pulling together without being solely a "pragmatic" manager?

The best name we could come up with was Ralf Rangnick. 

Ah sorry I didn’t make last night, as I would have been very much up for being part of that discussion once I’d taken it all in.

Ended up having an interesting whatsapp discussion with some mates last night about the differences in lockdown football to the before times. I’ve got a mate who’s a Wednesday fan and we were both saying that in the championship a lot of teams are pressuring more, which is possibly due to influence a successful Leeds side has had on the championship. This has worked against teams who have either chosen or been forced to consolidate with the base of the side they had last year. Lots of teams have brought cheap from league 1 or relegated sides, how many times have we heard on the commentary that the opposition are bringing on a young player from somewhere like Charlton who only cost them £450k and he’s already having an impact on the season. That same player then scores or has a massive influence on the game. We’ve spent our money elsewhere.

The likely thing to happen is these teams will run out of gas, much like the Leeds side did really except when they had a lockdown break. The problem we have is we get a new manager who then tries to change our style to a more pressing style with these players could leave us in a worse position because we aren’t suited it like other sides are. So the argument to stick, grin and bear it even if it means a season where survival is our only real aim is still a strong one. I argued this last night but a lot of fans thought last season was the ‘bad one’, where everything over the last few seasons was catching up with us, but it wasn’t. We finished 10th. It’s this season our financial situation has really hit home because we couldn’t compete in the market. If the club and fans wants the spiral to end, they need to work out when the spiral began, and it’s been going on much longer than Cocu’s reign at Derby. If we move to sack Cocu, I only see us further down the spiral.

As you say, who do you bring in? See lots of finger pointing and the like on here, don’t see many willing to give credible solutions. One is very much easier than the other.

[brady1993]

28 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Would agree with a lot of that & I've made similar points elsewhere. Can handle bad results but the removal of youth from the team & the move away from his favoured formation and style of play, suggest to me Cocu has lost his principles & hit a brick wall.

It was the introduction of Max Bird to the team in Jan (along with Clarke's return from injury) that signalled our turnaround last season and believe Bird & Sibley are key to the team turning it around this season, irrespective of whether Cocu survives or not.

Rooney is the elephant in the room though & I fully believe his presence is now corrosive to the team. Its clear he starts no matter what & plays where he pleases...what we dont know is whether that's Cocu in thrall to his odd moment of genius or whether its contractual. Either way, it needs sorting because the team are suffering.

I think you've outlined a large element of why we've ended up in this mess. I think he hasn't backed himself and what he'd presumably have earmarked out as first team players at the start of the season, listening perhaps to much to internal dissenting voices.

Have we had an unchanged 11 once this season ?

Bird ? First choice and ever-present after emerging last season. Named captain for the first couple games. Binned off after 3 games, paying for having a disjointed midfield where he was solely responsible for getting play going.

Sibley ? Excellent at the back end of last season. Start of this season pushed too far forward and at a time when 0 other attacking threat of note so had multiple markers. Also was chopped in and out of the team before being relegated to the bench post injury.

Or look at the likes of Te Wierik and Clarke. Surely must have been earmarked as our first choice partnership and yet started what 1 game together?

But then there's the flipside of this and this is where he lost me versus QPR. We've learnt the lesson previously about how certain players cannot be played to do certain things ?

Rooney hasn't the legs to play at 10. Davies is going to kill you playing a high line or trying to play out from the back. Shinnie isn't going to be able to get play going for you. Forsyth is a mistake waiting to happen on the ball. These aren't new problems.

Did we need to tweak things ? Sure but for a few games there we through everything out in order to just be hard to beat and then got stuck in a weird half way house when we tried to compromise that with our previous tactics when it became clear that "Being hard to beat" = "Hard to convert good starts into wins".

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, TuffLuff said:

Move away from the old guard of players we’ve seen season in season out

Eh? Who are these old guard to which you refer?

[Alph]

6 hours ago, Curtains said:

I’m worried about Sibley as he never looks up for options and gets booked all the time. 

He’s frustrating player to me. 
 

Yeah, he's hit a bit of a wall hasn't he. One player desperately in need of a lift. 

[TuffLuff]

8 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Eh? Who are these old guard to which you refer?

As it stands, Evans, Lawrence, Waghorn, Wisdom, Forsyth, Holmes arguably Davies too. All players we like but we don’t get enough out of them over a season.

’Old guard’ may not be the correct terminology but the players we’ve had a few seasons who are good enough and have been given a lot of chances but they’ve not taken it due to attitude, form or injury 

[hintonsboots]

18 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Eh? Who are these old guard to which you refer?

 

[LeedsCityRam]

42 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I think you've outlined a large element of why we've ended up in this mess. I think he hasn't backed himself and what he'd presumably have earmarked out as first team players at the start of the season, listening perhaps to much to internal dissenting voices.

Have we had an unchanged 11 once this season ?

Bird ? First choice and ever-present after emerging last season. Named captain for the first couple games. Binned off after 3 games, paying for having a disjointed midfield where he was solely responsible for getting play going.

Sibley ? Excellent at the back end of last season. Start of this season pushed too far forward and at a time when 0 other attacking threat of note so had multiple markers. Also was chopped in and out of the team before being relegated to the bench post injury.

Or look at the likes of Te Wierik and Clarke. Surely must have been earmarked as our first choice partnership and yet started what 1 game together?

But then there's the flipside of this and this is where he lost me versus QPR. We've learnt the lesson previously about how certain players cannot be played to do certain things ?

Rooney hasn't the legs to play at 10. Davies is going to kill you playing a high line or trying to play out from the back. Shinnie isn't going to be able to get play going for you. Forsyth is a mistake waiting to happen on the ball. These aren't new problems.

Did we need to tweak things ? Sure but for a few games there we through everything out in order to just be hard to beat and then got stuck in a weird half way house when we tried to compromise that with our previous tactics when it became clear that "Being hard to beat" = "Hard to convert good starts into wins".

Entire post absolutely spot on. I looked at the starting line up v QPR and it took me back to last Boxing Day at Wigan - Davies & Forsyth at the back, lots of energy but no control in midfield - and thought we've come full circle. A wretched display that day & another one on Wednesday too. As you & others have alluded to, Blackburn at home scarred Cocu & his staff into being 'solid' and we've been over-reacting ever since.

Pretty annoyed at the treatment of Bird & Sibley too. The quality of his set pieces away at Huddersfield has been held against Max (ignoring the defence splitting pass wrongly flagged for offside) but in his previous game (Watford home) he'd played as well as I'd seen him for a while - both with the ball & breaking up opposition moves. It was a bad night at the office but didn't merit an extended spell on the bench - Rooney has survived in the starting XI for worse.

I know Sibley dropped out of the team after a short injury but unclear why he hasn't been able to force his way back in, particularly when Lawrence & Waghorn play as poorly as they did Wednesday & yesterday. He seems to be blamed for not making an impact in our opening games as our sole attacking outlet receiving the ball with his back to goal - not his game, will never be his game.

There have been a lot of tweaks to the starting XI which suggest its just a desperate attempt to find a team selection that will get any kind of win. Its the wrong approach though & a total misreading of the situation from Cocu & his staff. We were poor in those opening games because we had nothing up top, had to resort to playing centre midfielders on the wing and both the opposition & our defence knew it. Once we had better options up top, we should have gone back to the system & personnel that served us so well January - March. The inability to stick to the plan & his misuse of the young lads has negated what I liked about Cocu earlier this year & is the reason I've changed my mind about him.

[brady1993]

23 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yeah, he's hit a bit of a wall hasn't he. One player desperately in need of a lift. 

It doesn't really help that he spent the first couple games basically being asked to carry our attack and now is having limited time off the bench coming on in tricky circumstances.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Yes -collective effort. 

You proposed the name, Curtains found 8 pictures and the rest of us passed a resolution to determine whether he more closely resembles a young Scwarzenegger or Herr Flick from allo allo.

Democracy and the will of the people in action ?

 

I’m now thinking maybe Derek Acorah??

[Topram]

I do still feel for Cocu, he’s had so much go against him and he’s always been professional throughout, Mel was clearly wanting to sell so didn’t back him and bring in the striker he needed, personally think Mel selling has left Cocu out to dry! 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Deep down I think I'm still hanging on to a Roy of the Rovers scenario...... Namely the takeover doesn't materialise, financially Mel can't afford to sack PC and then against all the odds the team scrape a win, click and go on long winning run as confidence soars.....dont wake me up its a good feeling.... 

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Deep down I think I'm still hanging on to a Roy of the Rovers scenario...... Namely the takeover doesn't materialise, financially Mel can't afford to sack PC and then against all the odds the team scrape a win, click and go on long winning run as confidence soars.....dont wake me up its a good feeling.... 

That sounds more like Billy the Fish then Roy of the Rovers

[Alph]

1 hour ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Deep down I think I'm still hanging on to a Roy of the Rovers scenario...... Namely the takeover doesn't materialise, financially Mel can't afford to sack PC and then against all the odds the team scrape a win, click and go on long winning run as confidence soars.....dont wake me up its a good feeling.... 

That would be great. Even though i don't think he's done well, Cocu still seems a top bloke and he's proven he can be a winner as a manager. I couldn't feel spiteful enough to take satisfaction in him getting the boot. 

Plus, he's going to leave here and go onto great things with someone else. That's how supporting Derby works. 

[Inverurie Ram]

I love Phillip Cocu.

I'm still backing you Phillip.

D.C.F.C. Love, Life & Unity.

[GB SPORTS]

32 minutes ago, Inverurie Ram said:

I love Phillip Cocu.

I'm still backing you Phillip.

D.C.F.C. Love, Life & Unity.

The king is dead. Long Live the King.

[Inverurie Ram]

Please come back Phillip!