Live football thread.

[Wolfie20]

36 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

Leicester just lost at home to Fulham. Had a quick peek on their forum. 2 consecutive defeats but still sitting 4th in the Prem and someone thinks it's time they got Warnock in.?

Most un-Fulham performance - plenty of grit and physicality.

[TigerTedd]

The premier league is so weird this year. It’s more like the championship. Everyone is beating everyone, and no one or two teams are walking away with it. The last three seasons in a row we’ve had City, then Liverpool and City, then Liverpool walking away with it. Now everyone is loosing daft points. 

It’s probably all Covid related, but I’m all for it. 

[ariotofmyown]

Is there any one in the world who thinks goals like that Watkins one should be ruled out?

Assuming crowds are allowed back in, this is surely the sort of thing that is gonna put people off. A last minute Villa equaliser won't cause too much grief, but what about when that sort of rubbish happens in the world cup final. Or a relegation battle on the final day. Or in the playoff final. Farce.

[TigerTedd]

9 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Is there any one in the world who thinks goals like that Watkins one should be ruled out?

Assuming crowds are allowed back in, this is surely the sort of thing that is gonna put people off. A last minute Villa equaliser won't cause too much grief, but what about when that sort of rubbish happens in the world cup final. Or a relegation battle on the final day. Or in the playoff final. Farce.

What’s so frustrating is that it’s so easily fixable. It’s what’s really putting me off football at the minute (that and Derby’s dire form).

Put a tag in the back of every player’s shirt (they’re all se aired up already for post match analytics). 

Then there’s none if this toenail, armpit offside nonsense. If the tag registers as offside, you’re offside. If you’re lucky enough to be in a position where your foot is a foot offside, but your tag is still inside, then that’s the rub of the green. 

similar to goal line technology, you can have the linos flag buzz whenever someone is offside, then the lino can raise his flag, and the ref can decide when the ball was played, or if they’re interfering. So you don’t loose the human decision making element. 

it’s really not that difficult. And I can’t believe no one at FIFA has worked it out. 

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, TigerTedd said:

What’s so frustrating is that it’s so easily fixable. It’s what’s really putting me off football at the minute (that and Derby’s dire form).

Put a tag in the back of every player’s shirt (they’re all se aired up already for post match analytics). 

Then there’s none if this toenail, armpit offside nonsense. If the tag registers as offside, you’re offside. If you’re lucky enough to be in a position where your foot is a foot offside, but your tag is still inside, then that’s the rub of the green. 

similar to goal line technology, you can have the linos flag buzz whenever someone is offside, then the lino can raise his flag, and the ref can decide when the ball was played, or if they’re interfering. So you don’t loose the human decision making element. 

it’s really not that difficult. And I can’t believe no one at FIFA has worked it out. 

its probably the krap that the rules for pro football should be the same for everybody.  The rule changes mean that bird has already flown.  If they want the game to open up then there tolerance could also be adjusted to reflect what a clear offside is in comparison with a technical one.  Interested if there are any posters who disagree though

[TimRam]

Bit late to the conversation but watching the var analysis of a Liverpool 'goal' v Brighton at weekend was just stupid. Lines being drawn then moved around wtf was I watching a Technical Drawing presentation or football? All the players just standing around looking at each other and the ref wondering what the heck was going on. Just plain daft.

Edited December 1, 2020 by TimRam

[AndyinLiverpool]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Is there any one in the world who thinks goals like that Watkins one should be ruled out?

Assuming crowds are allowed back in, this is surely the sort of thing that is gonna put people off. A last minute Villa equaliser won't cause too much grief, but what about when that sort of rubbish happens in the world cup final. Or a relegation battle on the final day. Or in the playoff final. Farce.

All this crap with the lines. I don't even think they drew the lines in the right place. They seemed to be measuring from the sleeve of Watkin's shirt, which he can't score with. Then twatting about for ages. Bloody hell. Go with the onfield decision.

The thing is, had the linesman put his flag up, I wouldn't have objected to it being disallowed. 

Again, it all comes down to not trusting the referee and assistants. And bellyaching about them. We reap what we sow.

[Gaspode]

Villa versus Newcastle likely to be postponed after the entire Newcastle squad told to self-isolate.....

[rynny]

30 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

They seemed to be measuring from the sleeve of Watkin's shirt, which he can't score with. 

The hand ball rule has changed, it is now hand ball under where the sleeve is so he can score with top of his arm now. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 minutes ago, rynny said:

The hand ball rule has changed, it is now hand ball under where the sleeve is so he can score with top of his arm now. 

I checked this last night and the wording relates to the 'bottom of the armpit' (which I didn't realise was actually a thing - her indoors wondered aloud what I was doing seemingly trying to make farty noises when I was trying to work out where the bottom of my armpit is). 

The intention appears to be to define where a shoulder is.

Wherever the bottom of an armpit is, I can't see how it extends to the end of the sleeve. Especially since sleeves move about.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Of course, what the freeze frame can't possibly show is whether Watkins was pushed into that position by the defender. In which case, different laws apply.

[RoyMac5]

42 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Of course, what the freeze frame can't possibly show

I never understand, as we're talking 'frames' here, how they can be so certain when the ball is kicked?

[rynny]

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I checked this last night and the wording relates to the 'bottom of the armpit' (which I didn't realise was actually a thing - her indoors wondered aloud what I was doing seemingly trying to make farty noises when I was trying to work out where the bottom of my armpit is). 

The intention appears to be to define where a shoulder is.

Wherever the bottom of an armpit is, I can't see how it extends to the end of the sleeve. Especially since sleeves move about.

I think the bottom of the sleeve thing is said to "us dummies" that don't understand the complexities of football ?

[AndyinLiverpool]

31 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I never understand, as we're talking 'frames' here, how they can be so certain when the ball is kicked?

They seem to measure it from when the ball moves but that has to be after it is played, doesn't it? If they measure it from the first point of contact, then we are dealing with the millisecond of contact. Possibly less but I don't know what those are called.

We are relying on the picture being stopped at the very point of contact, which I would say is impossible for the human eye to judge consistently, even in close up.

For context here, a housefly flaps its wings every 3 milliseconds.

Does anyone know how the picture is stopped? By hand/eye or by algorithm?

Or what the official guidelines are for the wonks who have to judge this stuff?

We currently have a set of laws written for humans being interpreted by machines. Let's just get rid of the machines.

[AndyinLiverpool]

10 minutes ago, rynny said:

I think the bottom of the sleeve thing is said to "us dummies" that don't understand the complexities of football ?

Or, indeed, understand where the bottom of an armpit is.

[rynny]

14 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

They seem to measure it from when the ball moves but that has to be after it is played, doesn't it? If they measure it from the first point of contact, then we are dealing with the millisecond of contact. Possibly less but I don't know what those are called.

A ball is deemed played once contact has finished. 

[Mucker1884]

15 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

They seem to measure it from when the ball moves but that has to be after it is played, doesn't it? If they measure it from the first point of contact, then we are dealing with the millisecond of contact. Possibly less but I don't know what those are called.

We are relying on the picture being stopped at the very point of contact, which I would say is impossible for the human eye to judge consistently, even in close up.

For context here, a housefly flaps its wings every 3 milliseconds.

Does anyone know how the picture is stopped? By hand/eye or by algorithm?

Or what the official guidelines are for the wonks who have to judge this stuff?

We currently have a set of laws written for humans being interpreted by machines. Let's just get rid of the machines.

It's billisecond.

Google has it as "One billionth of a second", but legend has it that it actually derives from Billy Whizz, the fastest schoolboy in history.

So now you know!

#ITK

[AndyinLiverpool]

6 minutes ago, rynny said:

A ball is deemed played once contact has finished. 

And yet Law 11 says this:

'A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched*'

'*The first point of contact of the ‘play’ or ‘touch’ of the ball should be used'

[rynny]

2 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

And yet Law 11 says this:

'A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched*'

'*The first point of contact of the ‘play’ or ‘touch’ of the ball should be used'

So does that mean I can put my foot under the ball wait for the player to run past the defence then flick it over them? When I made contact with the ball the player was on side, my foot hasn't come off the ball, so technically not offside. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 minute ago, rynny said:

So does that mean I can put my foot under the ball wait for the player to run past the defence then flick it over them? When I made contact with the ball the player was on side, my foot hasn't come off the ball, so technically not offside. 

I have no idea.

Anyway the problem would remain, whether it's first contact or the end of contact. We'd still be looking for that exact millisecond where the event occurred. 

In the real football world, the linesman needs to use a combination of vision (and peripheral vision) and sound to make the judgement. That leaves a span of time, albeit small, for them to judge whether the movement by the forward and the movement by the defender (often in opposite directions) left the forward in an offside position. A margin of error accepted by the spirit of the offside law as it is designed to be enacted by humans - but not accepted by TV pundits, fans or VAR.

Something has to give. If nothing else, Law 5 (The referee) will need to be changed. Phrases like 'the referee has full authority', 'based on the opinion of the referee' and 'the decisions of the referee...are final' don't seem to have a future in our VAR world.