nottingram Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Andicis said: Marriott should be the one we're getting rid of. Even in his ''good season'' he doesn't have great numbers, maybe he's just not very good? How many teams succeed in this league without a 15-20 goal a season striker? We don't have one. No we should absolutely not be selling Marriott at pretty much the very lowest point he could possibly be on his value curve. Also hugely misses the point that we need to cut costs and Martin is out of contract thus easy to shift This season, West Brom, Cardiff and Swansea didn’t have a 15-20 goal striker. Leeds did (just) as Bamford meets your arbitrary good striker level with 17. I don’t believe that a good, functional team requires an excellent goal scorer, as goals are spread further between advanced midfielders and wide forwards. Chris Martin is also not a 15-20 goal a season man anymore really so not sure of the point of this discussion You said we only got by with Marriott and Waghorn because we had goals from midfield. I explained we’re likely to have goals from midfield again this year, probably more so than in 18/19, but for whatever reason you’ve ignored that and just made a different point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Andicis said: Yes? How is that a bad reason? It’s opinion and not fact really is it? Yes we’ve had some shockers, we’ve also had some decent ones. Think it’s pretty shameful we always blame “recruitment” why we aren’t successful..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black ('n' White) Sheep Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 So that's now 4 positions (GK, LCB, RW, ST) that we need filling next season if we want to be competitive. Thanks for the memories and best of luck in your next move Chris. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up. Clubs will be looking to reduce wage bills across the board after the pandemic, so if we've made a fair offer (as I think we would have done), I'll be surprised if he gets a better offer somewhere else in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: It might cost more upfront to replace him, but if we recruit well we'd sell him on at a profit making the overall deal much better I universally hate this idea of turning a profit on someone being a motivation I want to sign people who improve our side and take us to the Premier League and then (pipe dream) to Europe and league titles - If that means paying for players who can help us achieve the next step and then so be it I also strongly disagree that what we currently have is enough - Marriott has hardly set the world on fire and crossing our fingers he's been sub-par cos of an ongoing injury is hopeful - Waggers is great but he's a utility striker for me - We desperately still need a 3rd goalscorer who can hold up the ball for games where we need to play that way - It's all very well talking about getting in behind the defence but most teams come to PP and defend so deep there is no room behind the defence 52 minutes ago, jono said: A lot of good sense in that post but I reckon football finances are going to have to re boot especially in the championship. Consider how much income comes from season tickets .. 10 million normally ? .. this year, effectively zero .. so where exactly is that 20k per week going to come from ? That 10 million probably represents somewhere between 30% and 50% of the clubs entire income. I strongly suspect more academy players, and lower salaries for renewed contracts. I suspect if finances are tightened that much (which looks likely) they will have to loosen the FFP regulations which will probably mean Uncle Mel can bankroll another season - I personally think we'll be in a better place this season than other teams should that happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 On a serious note, I think this outlines what a tough season we have ahead of us. We probably needed five new signings before this news and now we need to find a replacement for Martin, and with an ever-shrinking budget to boot. I am not too hopeful to be honest. Our track record with recruitment has been tragic in recent years and I am not expecting too much to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammeister Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, ossieram said: It's a shame that Chris and the club couldn't find terms to suit them both, but it's not the end of the world. I like CM and thank him for the service he's given to the club and for all the goals and assists he provided, but we don't play in a style that is really suited to his game anymore and he was getting more and more isolated in games. I think Cocu will be looking for a replacement with more pace that will be able to break from deep as the opposition try to push up when we are playing the ball around our midfield. Time will tell if the right decision has been made by both the club and CM. My thoughts exactly. In the modern game, pace is everything. I don’t think a team can have both a Rooney and a Martin (ie both technically very good but lacking in pace) and expect to get promoted. We become too easy to suppress. Martin up front also makes us predictable. Opposition teams know that he will get the ball, hold it (possibly go down) and flick it on. I think CM has been great for us, but most definitely think we will benefit from a change up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, RIMBAUD said: My worry is that we have just gone and done the same. Deep down I think PC wants a bit more pace up top. Absolutely, but I believe we need 4 very decent forwards of different types in this league to be successful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 We will miss CM's ability to hold the ball and bring others in to play in the final third of the pitch more than his goals. Waghorn and Marriott simply arent that sort of player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 minute ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: We've still got Rammie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, nottingram said: No we should absolutely not be selling Marriott at pretty much the very lowest point he could possibly be on his value curve. Also hugely misses the point that we need to cut costs and Martin is out of contract thus easy to shift This season, West Brom, Cardiff and Swansea didn’t have a 15-20 goal striker. Leeds did (just) as Bamford meets your arbitrary good striker level with 17. I don’t believe that a good, functional team requires an excellent goal scorer, as goals are spread further between advanced midfielders and wide forwards. Chris Martin is also not a 15-20 goal a season man anymore really so not sure of the point of this discussion You said we only got by with Marriott and Waghorn because we had goals from midfield. I explained we’re likely to have goals from midfield again this year, probably more so than in 18/19, but for whatever reason you’ve ignored that and just made a different point. Andre Ayew scored 18 goals for Swansea? At Martin's rate, if he'd been played more he'd have easily hit 15 goals last season. Because how can I argue with your opinion that we'll get more goals from midfield next season? It's your opinion, I don't share it. Nothing more needs to be said about the matter. We might actually get some funds to spend on a player who suits us if we were to sell Marriott, letting Martin go gets rid of a player who does suit us and has had a great season. 12 minutes ago, Mafiabob said: It’s opinion and not fact really is it? Yes we’ve had some shockers, we’ve also had some decent ones. Think it’s pretty shameful we always blame “recruitment” why we aren’t successful..... In the decent category? Duane Holmes, a bunch of loanees Jody Morris knew and wanted and Matt Clarke? That's all I got? We have poo recruitment, in my (and many others) opinions. In fact, you're the only one I've seen on here with a different opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, nottingram said: No we should absolutely not be selling Marriott at pretty much the very lowest point he could possibly be on his value curve. Also hugely misses the point that we need to cut costs and Martin is out of contract thus easy to shift This season, West Brom, Cardiff and Swansea didn’t have a 15-20 goal striker. Leeds did (just) as Bamford meets your arbitrary good striker level with 17. I don’t believe that a good, functional team requires an excellent goal scorer, as goals are spread further between advanced midfielders and wide forwards. Chris Martin is also not a 15-20 goal a season man anymore really so not sure of the point of this discussion You said we only got by with Marriott and Waghorn because we had goals from midfield. I explained we’re likely to have goals from midfield again this year, probably more so than in 18/19, but for whatever reason you’ve ignored that and just made a different point. Martin scores 12 despite missing a quarter of a season and not starting every game....I think 15 goals would have been attainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Van Rammeister said: In the modern game, pace is everything. I don’t think a team can have both a Rooney and a Martin (ie both technically very good but lacking in pace) and expect to get promoted. We become too easy to suppress. Martin up front also makes us predictable. Opposition teams know that he will get the ball, hold it (possibly go down) and flick it on. Yes, but that includes pace of thought and action - Both of which Martin can be very quick with When our attacking mids have been at their best it's with Waggers or Martin playing back to goal - Giving Lawrence, Knight and Sibbers something to play off If we have Waggers and Marriott we need (for me) a smart, good footballing, pivot player on top of that for the games where teams defend super deep against us I've stated over and over again - This season Martin's shots per goal ratio was incredible - His contributions to the goalscoring also so - Our problem, which we were solidly bottom 4 in the league for, was getting good shots on goal - Getting the ball into the box was our problem - And that (for me) sits with the attacking mids (which we don't have enough of) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: We've still got Rammie! And look how sad and lonely he looks at the end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITSD Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 If this is the end of the road I hope he can get the proper send off he so deserves when the fans are allowed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, Black ('n' White) Sheep said: So that's now 4 positions (GK, LCB, RW, ST) that we need filling next season if we want to be competitive. Thanks for the memories and best of luck in your next move Chris. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up. Clubs will be looking to reduce wage bills across the board after the pandemic, so if we've made a fair offer (as I think we would have done), I'll be surprised if he gets a better offer somewhere else in this league. Unfortunately the championship is littered with clubs still receiving parachute payments and we have only a tiny amount of income currently due to the pandemic - times are tough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: Andre Ayew scored 18 goals for Swansea? At Martin's rate, if he'd been played more he'd have easily hit 15 goals last season. Because how can I argue with your opinion that we'll get more goals from midfield next season? It's your opinion, I don't share it. Nothing more needs to be said about the matter. We might actually get some funds to spend on a player who suits us if we were to sell Marriott, letting Martin go gets rid of a player who does suit us and has had a great season. In the decent category? Duane Holmes, a bunch of loanees Jody Morris knew and wanted and Matt Clarke? That's all I got? We have poo recruitment, in my (and many others) opinions. In fact, you're the only one I've seen on here with a different opinion. Is it not generally accepted that Martin isn’t capable of playing many more games? Fair enough on Ayew, I had assumed he hadn’t got that many. But kind of fits into my point that he is a wide forward - goals can be shared between more players in good and functional teams. I guess there’s not much point discussing things further if you don’t believe that Lawrence, Knight, Sibley, Rooney and Whittaker among others are capable of adding as many goals to a team as Mount and Wilson. Just think this 15-20 goal a season striker thing is a strange and arbitrary sound bite that gets thrown about. Take Fulham and look at their options in wide positions - Knockaert, D-Reid, Cavaleiro, then Cairney and Johansen are decent scorers from midfield. All excellent players. They rely so much on Mitrovic almost to a fault to the point that the others have suffered. Mitrovic injured for the play offs and all of their goals have come from wide or midfield and they’re into the PO final. 3 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: Martin scores 12 despite missing a quarter of a season and not starting every game....I think 15 goals would have been attainable. As above, what is to say that Martin is capable of playing many more games. His fitness issues are well known about and he deserves credit for even playing as much as he has with them. I am by no means anti Martin. Think he is and has been good to excellent for us. But also don’t subscribe to the idea that he’s the be all and end all as I have explained ad nauseum. Breaking the structures we now have in place for someone we can’t guarantee consistent starts from would be crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramslad1992 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: We've still got Rammie! Stick him up top... bound to get 15-20 goals with them horns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, nottingram said: Just think this 15-20 goal a season striker thing is a strange and arbitrary sound bite that gets thrown about. It's a sound bite because there is truth to it. If you look at the teams that are successful in the Championship over 5 years, most of them have a striker with that number of goals for them. Doesn't always have to be the case, but in a majority it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, nottingram said: Is it not generally accepted that Martin isn’t capable of playing many more games? What like most of the restarted season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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