DarkFruitsRam7 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, Alpha said: On the white privilege thing. I have never understood what it's attempted to do. I just know that I do find it offensive This is where some will say "aww poor you, a white Male"... but I'm not arsed. My race should never be a reason why I have anything or lose anything. It should never hold me back or give me rights. I want to see the same said of any race But that's kind of the point, isn't it? The whole point of the 'white privilege' argument shouldn't be to rub it in your face that you drew the genetic lottery; rather it's to help people realise that, on average, people of colour are held back by the colour of their skin. It doesn't detract from any of your achievements, nor should it deny issues of social class, gender, etc, but it's an attempt to prevent people from being ignorant of the issues that people of colour face and that white people are very unlikely to have dealt with. Maybe it's been interpreted as a stick to beat white people with; maybe in some cases it's even been wrongly used as a stick to beat white people with. But its core message should be one of raising awareness of the issues that people of colour face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said: On that much we agree. The underlying problem is inequality - and not just racial but more importantly societal. You'll note that all the things you are against (identity politics, antifascists, extreme right/left politics etc) all go away if we build a society where equality is a given and not something that people have to constantly fight for America maybe needs a civil war to get through this and come out the other side with a way forward They tried a black democrat in the Whitehouse. That didn't make things better. They tried a white populist maniac. That's proved to be even worse. Sending in the army to attack your own people is not addressing any root causes. It's how civil wars start We often agree on the end goal, just not on the root cause or the approach needed to get there - and you're bordering dangerously close to Jordan Peterson's equality of opportunity not equality of outcome ? Successive governments have failed, maybe it is time for a revolution. The next 12 months could very well be the defining ones of our lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 22 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: But that's kind of the point, isn't it? The whole point of the 'white privilege' argument shouldn't be to rub it in your face that you drew the genetic lottery; rather it's to help people realise that, on average, people of colour are held back by the colour of their skin. It doesn't detract from any of your achievements, nor should it deny issues of social class, gender, etc, but it's an attempt to prevent people from being ignorant of the issues that people of colour face and that white people are very unlikely to have dealt with. Maybe it's been interpreted as a stick to beat white people with; maybe in some cases it's even been wrongly used as a stick to beat white people with. But its core message should be one of raising awareness of the issues that people of colour face. There is zero doubt that black people have it harder than white people, it's well documented and you'd be a fool to argue against that, that being said there is 100% an element of pushing white guilt with a lot of the white privilege arguments, but generally it has the opposite effect of the one desired. It has an almost accusatory tone behind it, and it turns a lot of people away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, maxjam said: We often agree on the end goal, just not on the root cause or the approach needed to get there. Successive governments have failed, maybe it is time for a revolution. The next 12 months could very well be the defining ones of our lifetime. America's electoral system is a huge reason for the fact that nothing ever really changes. A rich candidate like Trump can come in and blow the opponents out the water. A lot of the candidates with good ideas fade into nothing because they don't have the financial backing to compete with the big campaigns, or if you're a big name like Biden you just get in because you're well known, even though we all know he is not the best person for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Andicis said: America's electoral system is a huge reason for the fact that nothing ever really changes. A rich candidate like Trump can come in and blow the opponents out the water. A lot of the candidates with good ideas fade into nothing because they don't have the financial backing to compete with the big campaigns, or if you're a big name like Biden you just get in because you're well known, even though we all know he is not the best person for the job. I think we're all slowly waking up to the reality that politics is broken everyone, possibly non more so than America. The next 12 months I cited in my post includes the outcome of the election in November - if Trump wins again leftists will go insane at the thought of 5 more years, if he loses then the lunatics will have taken over the asylum. Are we far enough away over here?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, maxjam said: I think we're all slowly waking up to the reality that politics is broken everyone, possibly non more so than America. The next 12 months I cited in my post includes the outcome of the election in November - if Trump wins again leftists will go insane at the thought of 5 more years, if he loses then the lunatics will have taken over the asylum. Are we far enough away over here?!? It's so very broken in America. I think seeing senators filibuster important issues that they don't want to deal with was the first thing that made me realise that (it's absolutely ludicrous that it's a thing you can do). Everything is so entrenched by where they're getting their funding from, the Republicans are all paid by the NRA/fossil fuel companies so refuse to consider anything against that, and then you have Democrats bailing out Antifa. There is almost no bipartisanship anymore, feels like it's a long way away from being able to move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, Andicis said: There is zero doubt that black people have it harder than white people, it's well documented and you'd be a fool to argue against that, that being said there is 100% an element of pushing white guilty with a lot of the white privilege arguments, but generally it has the opposite effect of the one desired. It has an almost accusatory tone behind it, and it turns a lot of people away. I'd mostly agree, especially re. the element of forcing white guilt on people - some of whom have zero advantage over black people. I'd prefer poverty privilege - or the privilege of not being born into poverty but thats not as snappy! I forget the exact figures but as a recent Sky article highlighted black people are three times as likely not to have access to a garden in the UK during the lockdown than white people - but a simple calculation based on their relative population sizes meant that 700k black people had no garden compared to over 5m white people. The article was designed to push the white privilege agenda with no regard for the 5m whites that were in the same situation. Raise people out of poverty and you'll erase a lot of white privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Breitbart article (I know, I know) but they cite a poll done by respected Morning Consult; https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/morning-consult/ A new poll by Morning Consult found that large majorities of American voters, including a majority of Democrat supporters, back use of the National Guard to address the riots and protests tearing apart cities around the nation. A smaller majority of Americans supports using the military. The poll backs up the President’s claim that a “silent majority” is on his side in cracking down on the unrest. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/02/silent-majority-poll-shows-american-voters-support-use-of-military-national-guard-in-riots/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramslad1992 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, BriggRam said: George Floyds murderers were coppers long before Trump became president, and things like this have been going on for decades if not centuries in America, how is that Trumps fault Because they look up to him and see a green light. It's like the blind leading the blind. Work for a racist idiot who will literally blame any and everything else apart from himself and people will start to believe it's ok to do what they do. 'When the looting starts the shooting starts' so someone steals something they're game for being shot and killed? Sounds very 1600's which is exactly where America as a whole has stayed. I ranted about trump in another thread ths other night but he really is an idiot. Makes Boris Johnson look amazing and that's saying something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, maxjam said: Breitbart article (I know, I know) but they cite a poll done by respected Morning Consult; https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/morning-consult/ A new poll by Morning Consult found that large majorities of American voters, including a majority of Democrat supporters, back use of the National Guard to address the riots and protests tearing apart cities around the nation. A smaller majority of Americans supports using the military. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/02/silent-majority-poll-shows-american-voters-support-use-of-military-national-guard-in-riots/ Here's a link to the poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 20 minutes ago, maxjam said: I think we're all slowly waking up to the reality that politics is broken everyone, possibly non more so than America. The next 12 months I cited in my post includes the outcome of the election in November - if Trump wins again leftists will go insane at the thought of 5 more years, if he loses then the lunatics will have taken over the asylum. Are we far enough away over here?!? I don't know enough about American politics to comment knowledgeably, but if Trump loses the lunatics will take over the asylum? How could Biden as an alternative to Trump possibly be worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 9 minutes ago, maxjam said: Raise people out of poverty and you'll erase a lot of white privilege. The thing is, it’s difficult to do it that way round. As I suggested earlier, one of the causes of poverty amongst people of colour is that society is structured against them somewhat (I cited the job interview study). It’s obviously not the only factor, and the issue is far more complex than being down to race alone, but it’s one of the difficulties at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, reverendo de duivel said: I don't know enough about American politics to comment knowledgeably, but if Trump loses the lunatics will take over the asylum? How could Biden as an alternative to Trump possibly be worse? Personal opinion on the Democrats. They make Corbyn look right wing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, reverendo de duivel said: I don't know enough about American politics to comment knowledgeably, but if Trump loses the lunatics will take over the asylum? How could Biden as an alternative to Trump possibly be worse? I don't think Biden would be worse than Trump, but he was part of the Obama administration who did nothing for 8 years. He's no real solution to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramslad1992 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Andicis said: I don't think Biden would be worse than Trump, but he was part of the Obama administration who did nothing for 8 years. He's no real solution to anything. One of the only times I've seen somebody claim Obama did nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, Ramslad1992 said: One of the only times I've seen somebody claim Obama did nothing! Really? Objectively, Obama did very little. He had both houses for the first two years and pushed through very little change, then he lost the houses and didn't get them back. He got very little done in that time. Seems like a good bloke, but a bit of a lame duck President, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramslad1992 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, Andicis said: Really? Objectively, Obama did very little. He had both houses for the first two years and pushed through very little change, then he lost the houses and didn't get them back. He got very little done in that time. Seems like a good bloke, but a bit of a lame duck President, in my opinion. I'm pretty indifferent either way mate. My knowledge of American politics is pretty slim apart from general knowledge... but whenever I've read about Obama etc it was mostly good... maybe i've just been reading the wrong stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stagtime Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ramslad1992 said: Because they look up to him and see a green light. It's like the blind leading the blind. Work for a racist idiot who will literally blame any and everything else apart from himself and people will start to believe it's ok to do what they do. 'When the looting starts the shooting starts' so someone steals something they're game for being shot and killed? Sounds very 1600's which is exactly where America as a whole has stayed. I ranted about trump in another thread ths other night but he really is an idiot. Makes Boris Johnson look amazing and that's saying something. I'd call him a racist fuckwit, fool or cockhead but i don't think he is a idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing will incite his core base and as it's the only chance he has, i can see this as only the beginning. Straps on for the next 6 months, it's going to be a ride and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, Ramslad1992 said: I'm pretty indifferent either way mate. My knowledge of American politics is pretty slim apart from general knowledge... but whenever I've read about Obama etc it was mostly good... maybe i've just been reading the wrong stuff! Obama is looked on favourably because he was very articulate and likable, but we did an A level module on US politics and he was the given example of a lame duck President, in real terms he made very little change unfortunately, for all the promise he had. All he really did was Obamacare, and that didn't really actually entail all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, Andicis said: I don't think Biden would be worse than Trump, but he was part of the Obama administration who did nothing for 8 years. He's no real solution to anything. Agreed, but I'd take four years of Sleepy Joe over another term of the hyperactive toddler incumbent, it certainly wouldn't be the lunatics taking over the asylum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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