The Politics Thread 2020

[Ramslad1992]

2 minutes ago, Stagtime said:

I'd call him a racist fuckwit, fool or cockhead but i don't think he is a idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing will incite his core base and as it's the only chance he has, i can see this as only the beginning. Straps on for the next 6 months, it's going to be a ride and a half.

I dont dislike many people (that I know in real life or celebrities) I'm generally a quite easy going guy who gets on with everyone but something about Trump makes my blood boil. I get your point but I couldn't believe America voted him in once no way would they be stupid enough to do it again.

[maxjam]

18 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

The thing is, it’s difficult to do it that way round. As I suggested earlier, one of the causes of poverty amongst people of colour is that society is structured against them somewhat (I cited the job interview study). It’s obviously not the only factor, and the issue is far more complex than being down to race alone, but it’s one of the difficulties at least.

Agree, its not easy and governments have repeatedly failed to address the problem.

I don't really know what the answer is, but it has to be a long term generational one imo.  I currently live in the catchment area of 3 failing secondary school in a fairly deprived area - we home school our kids to ensure they get a quality education and get a visit from the local home schooling education guy every year.  He told us that its no coincidence that the schools are failing here as its a low income, low aspiration area - parents aren't high achievers and don't really care about their kids education, letting them roam the streets or play xbox all day.  How do you fix that?  Telling them they all have white privilege won't encourage them to vote Labour or Democrat though.

Personally rather than criticise, throw up cramped affordable housing or make it easier for them to get into college (my eldest lad who is now at 6th form needs only 3 Bs to get on the exact same course as his friend from 10 miles down the road that needs 2 As and a B).  I'd invest in the community, in the schools and plan for the long term - you might not see the results for 20 years but you'd be dragging everyone up rather than lowering the targets they need to reach.

[Ramslad1992]

4 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Obama is looked on favourably because he was very articulate and likable, but we did an A level module on US politics and he was the given example of a lame duck President, in real terms he made very little change unfortunately, for all the promise he had. All he really did was Obamacare, and that didn't really actually entail all that much. 

Maybe that's where it was, Obama's diplomatic ability is 100 times better than Trumps, I do know Obamacare wasnt particularly liked all too much even though on paper it looked quite good.

[Stagtime]

5 minutes ago, Ramslad1992 said:

I dont dislike many people (that I know in real life or celebrities) I'm generally a quite easy going guy who gets on with everyone but something about Trump makes my blood boil. I get your point but I couldn't believe America voted him in once no way would they be stupid enough to do it again.

You would hope not but i have no trust at all in their system. Remember that he had 3 million less votes than Clinton last time. I believe voting should be compulsory in any democracy.  

 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Stagtime said:

I believe voting should be compulsory in any democracy.  

There is a certain irony to that, isn't there?

[Alph]

57 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

The thing is, it’s difficult to do it that way round. As I suggested earlier, one of the causes of poverty amongst people of colour is that society is structured against them somewhat (I cited the job interview study). It’s obviously not the only factor, and the issue is far more complex than being down to race alone, but it’s one of the difficulties at least.

I'm basing this on the UK. 

Your job interview study was a good point. I can see why it may be interpreted as institutional racism, definitely. White privilege? I guess. 

I would be interested to know if the race of the employer matters? Is it possible that a black man is more likely to employ a black man than a white man? Is there a kind of mirroring in place? Like a room full of strangers will look for something they can identify themselves with whether it be language, accent, colour, gender etc? 

I would say in the UK you are far more restricted by your surroundings, your class than your colour. A rough area, a rough school, deprived area, high crime = limited opportunities

The interesting thing is, like USA I would assume (hopefully correctly) that the majority of the black and ethnic minority can be found in the poorer suburbs of UK cities. So affording them less opportunities. I wouldn't call this racism. I'd put it down more to how many generations white people have be forging their path in this land in comparison. A young black man in this country has a British heritage going back how far? There's no chance when the previous generations came over here they were able to purchase the luxuries. Many who have come to this country and still come now, they are in the poorest areas? That would be fair to say? 

So it is a privilege to us that we have been able to climb the ladder. Is that white privilege? Is it a privilege of being 5th, 6th, 10th, 20th generation born here? Is it an opportunity seized by white people years ago when attitudes were different? Definitely a privilege but not white privilege as such. (Sounds like a racist "they come over here taking what's ours! But hear me out.)

This is why I hate the white privilege phrase. Because i feel it's far more a social class thing. Does a Polish immigrant stand more chance of getting a job than a Pakistani immigrant? Does an Albanian stand as much chance as a Nigerian? 

The phrase I always see used as to make white people feel guilty. I think it's terrible for gaining understanding or sympathy from white people. 

There is discrimination in Britain. Gender, race, religion etc etc. It is not perfect and that study you posted about proves that. As does some of the companies based here pay structures. 

I 100% agree being a white Male has NEVER stopped me doing anything and that a black female might not be able to say the same. But there's another factor at work there too. 

I think a black Male has more opportunities than a black female and an Indian Male. Not all white males have the same privileges. 

There's too much to consider for white privilege to be a thing. The phrase is offensive. It's counter productive. It's divisive. 

I really think Britain has made great strides in my lifetime. It continues to be inclusive. Parts of the US are more comparable to Britain in my parents youth. 

Not perfect, racism exists here (and from many races). But to see some of the kind of movement (?) spreading to here... nah, we are nothing alike to the US. Way ahead of them. Helps we don't have a racist war monger in charge. 

[Ramslad1992]

19 minutes ago, Stagtime said:

You would hope not but i have no trust at all in their system. Remember that he had 3 million less votes than Clinton last time. I believe voting should be compulsory in any democracy.  

 

Agreed, I'm 27 and vote every single time I can, I know many my age don't but my dad taught me that if I don't vote i can't complain. Many people round the world can't vote so it's a privilege, if those idiot choose to vote for that orange idiot that's their choice and they are entitled to it.

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

 

Mate, I never think my opinion holds any more weight than others. 

As @reverendo de duivel said, I don't wish to call out EVERYONE. As I replied to @Andicis I explained that there are those that are genuinely switching on to injustices etc. But I know personally of those that are very much in it for the way it reflects on them. Also major organisations are all over it now yet have never practised what they preach and once this is out the headlines they won't use their influence or power to help the noble cause. 

On the white privilege thing. I have never understood what it's attempted to do. I just know that I do find it offensive

This is where some will say "aww poor you, a white Male"... but I'm not arsed. My race should never be a reason why I have anything or lose anything. It should never hold me back or give me rights. I want to see the same said of any race

I kind of feel I grew up the hard way. I have earned what I have. To be told it would be harder if I was black or that my path has been helped by being white pisses me off. And I imagine it pisses a lot of white people off. 

There doesn't need to be a kind of carpet swept from under white people to achieve equality. We can raise the ethnic minorities up without this borderline racist phrase. 

I don't see it as a way to achieve equality. Only to rile many white people. Many who face obstacles in social class inequality. 

I expect a "awww diddums" response from someone. However would that be the correct response from a Pakistani immigrant to a privileged black Brit?

imo it's a terrible angle to try and level things up. 

I haven't defended the phrase because, like you, I think it's a really poor choice of words. The point I tried and clearly failed to make, concerns people's continuing focus on arguments around 'virtue-signalling' and semantics rather than to the issue these movements are meant to address. Clearly the message has not got through for some, on that we agree. 

Despite the clumsiness of the phrase (let's not forget it originates from the US not the UK where the problem is a far greater one and perhaps, a more in your face approach is required), when folk spend more time concerning themselves with how an important message is delivered than the message itself, it feels to me that they've missed the point. I feel exactly the same way about folk who are more comfortable demeaning folk as virtue-signallers, than discussing the 'virtue' they may or may not be signalling. I don't feel this notion should be that hard to grasp.

As for the other example, that being the NHS, over 600,000 folk in the UK answered the government's 'call to arms' to assist in the fight against CV. I was one of them, though my services were deemed surplus. I wonder how many of those 600,000 also 'virtue-signalled' on social media? 

Perhaps I'm just being naive but it would be a far nicer planet if these negative assumptions around folks' motivations were less commonplace than they are. Of course some folk are less than sincere about their motivations, frankly, so what? Put simply, while I agree that crap slogans can alienate those they are trying to reach, I'd venture that deep-rooted cynicism does far more harm. The fact that you and I are debating how the 'white privelege' message is delivered and by whom, rather than the validity of the message itself, rather proves the point.

[Andicis]

8 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Perhaps I'm just being naive but it would be a far nicer planet if these negative assumptions around folks' motivations were less commonplace than they are. Of course some folk are less than sincere about their motivations, frankly, so what? Put simply, while I agree that crap slogans can alienate those they are trying to reach, I'd venture that deep-rooted cynicism does far more harm

I agree cynicism does cause some harm, but it's hard not to be when I see some of it. For example, a girl I know who has been posting frequently about the issue, is dating somebody from who used to go to my school who did a nazi salute and said white power, and she is aware of this. Then I see the 49ers (American football team) who didn't stand behind Colin Kaepernik when he took a knee in the national anthem posting about it, or when I see Luis Suarez or John Terry posting about it, it's hard not to doubt the motives behind it. So maybe it is wrong to be distrustful of motives, but surely their actions should match their words? 

[Comrade 86]

11 minutes ago, Andicis said:

So maybe it is wrong to be distrustful of motives, but surely their actions should match their words? 

Of course they should, but then do we ignore the message because we don't respect the person conveying it? For the last time, that's the point I'm making. If we choose to dismiss any notion put forward by people we don't like, we're lost. Cynicism will kill us far quicker than poorly constructed slogans.

[Eddie]

10 hours ago, maxjam said:

How you reached that conclusion from the study is beyond me.

Lets not forget that 90-95% of people shot were actively attacking a police officer or member of the public - which according to the number of people shot to death by police last year leaves approx 20 black compared to 35 white deaths that you could perhaps argue police were making judgment calls and whether shooting was a necessary act.

The paragraph after the study concluded that it actually bloody stated it in black and white. 

For crying out loud, it's like dealing with a bloody 5 year old.

[Jourdan]

With these issues of race and privilege, I think it all comes down to mentality.

You can let yourself be ruled by these social constructs or not. Growing up, my siblings and I always knew that we’d only get out of life what we put into it. It was simply a case of putting your absolute best foot forward and seeing where it takes you.

It has never been a matter of skin colour. I am proud to be mixed race - proud to be black, proud to be white, proud to have both Jamaican and British heritage. But at the same time, I know it’s just a small part of who I am.

I think it’s sad that people try to instil fear and dread in people’s minds to think otherwise. If I had listened to some of the things people told me, I’d never have left the garden. I am ruled by the thinking: the only obstacle is yourself, and for me, it has been empowering to think in those terms.

I know I am where I am today is based on ability and merit, no more no less. No-one has ever held me back but myself. I got Bs at school because I didn’t work hard enough to get As and coasted through my studies. I work as an English teacher because I didn’t want to graft and be an industrial painter like my dad or an engineer like my brother. I don’t have a phD like my best friend from school because I was too busy travelling the world trying to romance foreign women.

I personally believe that the Black Lives Matter movement - while possibly well-meaning - is counter-productive because many people use it and other similar movements as a vehicle to shame and guilt white people, as a vehicle for black supremacy rather than equality.

Many black people lean on this idea of white privilege unnecessarily, and many white people think by acknowledging privilege, it somehow absolves them of said guilt.

I think it’s too simplistic to frame all of the problems in America as being down to race. I think the root of the problems lie much deeper than that.

But for me, if you believe in equality, you have to project it. It should show in your everyday thinking and your everyday behaviours. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy - if you believe you are equal, you’ll be treated equally. Not enough people are taught that, they are taught to stay in their lane and wallow in all of these injustices.

In reality, struggle and injustice are not black concepts, but universal concepts.

[1of4]

3 hours ago, Andicis said:

It's so very broken in America. I think seeing senators filibuster important issues that they don't want to deal with was the first thing that made me realise that (it's absolutely ludicrous that it's a thing you can do). Everything is so entrenched by where they're getting their funding from, the Republicans are all paid by the NRA/fossil fuel companies so refuse to consider anything against that, and then you have Democrats bailing out Antifa. There is almost no bipartisanship anymore, feels like it's a long way away from being able to move forward.

I see your perpetuating the lie that the Democrats are bailing out antifa. The link @maxjam put up in trying to justify this claim, as no mention of antifa.

 

[Comrade 86]

Herein lies the problem...

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

7 hours ago, Alpha said:

 

I’ve cut the quote down so we don’t clog up the thread.

You make a good point about a Polish person perhaps facing more difficulties than a black person in the UK. And maybe the term ‘white privilege’ has a net negative effect because it does more harm than good. Maybe it’s emphasised too much when there are also huge issues of gender, class, etc, alongside it. I still think the intentions behind it are good though. When it comes down to it, even taking away class considerations, a black man will still probably have his life made more difficult by the colour of his skin in the UK, and a white man won’t.

Even if it’s just a sense of being the only black bloke in the office. I saw a tweet from someone the other day where he had stopped going for drinks with his colleagues because, after a few pints, people started bringing out the old ‘you look like 50 Cent’, calling him ‘brother’ while they called all the white people ‘mate’, etc. I think the idea behind the term ‘white privilege’ is that this is the stuff we don’t really pick up on because we don’t have any experience with it.

As for @Jourdan‘s point, I fully agree. Unless you’re locked in a cage all your life, you can drag yourself upwards in any situation if you have the right mentality. I don’t think having that belief is mutually exclusive with having an awareness of how it might be slightly more difficult for certain people to do so though.

[maxjam]

6 hours ago, Eddie said:

The paragraph after the study concluded that it actually bloody stated it in black and white. 

For crying out loud, it's like dealing with a bloody 5 year old.

You'll have to specify what paragraph you mean, you've lost me.  I assume its this one but I could be wrong;

The data show that it's not racial bias on behalf of white officers relative to black officers when it comes to fatal shootings, and that's good news. The bad news, Cesario said, are that internal policy changes, such as diversifying police forces, may not reduce shootings of minority citizens.

That still doesn't mean its systemic imo - if someone is a threat to others so much so than it results in death by shooting thats just cause and effect which is different to systemic racism or institutional bias.

Further I fail to see why it has to be one or the other.  My argument has always been that it is a result of multiple factors, racism being only one.

[maxjam]

5 hours ago, 1of4 said:

I see your perpetuating the lie that the Democrats are bailing out antifa. The link @maxjam put up in trying to justify this claim, as no mention of antifa.

 

Fair enough, it makes no mention of Antifa - although we are repeatedly told there is no such thing as Antifa ?

The article does say the following however;

At least 13 Biden campaign staff members posted on Twitter on Friday and Saturday that they made donations to the Minnesota Freedom Fund, which opposes the practice of cash bail, or making people pay to avoid pre-trial imprisonment. The group uses donations to pay bail fees in Minneapolis.

Biden campaign spokesman Andrew Bates said in a statement to Reuters that the former vice president opposes the institution of cash bail as a “modern day debtors prison.”

But the campaign declined to answer questions on whether the donations were coordinated within the campaign, underscoring the politically thorny nature of the sometimes violent protests.

Given whats been happening in Minneapolis and other cities, if people want to donate money to the Freedom Fund I guess its a moral judgement for them.  Not something I'd ever consider doing though tbh.

[TramRam]

10 hours ago, Alpha said:

 

Mate, I never think my opinion holds any more weight than others. 

As @reverendo de duivel said, I don't wish to call out EVERYONE. As I replied to @Andicis I explained that there are those that are genuinely switching on to injustices etc. But I know personally of those that are very much in it for the way it reflects on them. Also major organisations are all over it now yet have never practised what they preach and once this is out the headlines they won't use their influence or power to help the noble cause. 

On the white privilege thing. I have never understood what it's attempted to do. I just know that I do find it offensive

This is where some will say "aww poor you, a white Male"... but I'm not arsed. My race should never be a reason why I have anything or lose anything. It should never hold me back or give me rights. I want to see the same said of any race

I kind of feel I grew up the hard way. I have earned what I have. To be told it would be harder if I was black or that my path has been helped by being white pisses me off. And I imagine it pisses a lot of white people off. 

There doesn't need to be a kind of carpet swept from under white people to achieve equality. We can raise the ethnic minorities up without this borderline racist phrase. 

I don't see it as a way to achieve equality. Only to rile many white people. Many who face obstacles in social class inequality. 

I expect a "awww diddums" response from someone. However would that be the correct response from a Pakistani immigrant to a privileged black Brit?

imo it's a terrible angle to try and level things up. 

Try advising a minority male/female who's applied for a better paying job but doesn't get it. The white male/female did, Once a letter has been recieved and shown to me the person goes into racist mode, I then ask them other than their colour why did you not get the job, Absenteeism, Disciplinary, Not the qualifications for the job, Poor attitude to other workers, I've also had it in reverse, They only got the job because of their colour.

At work I found people of colour are quick to use their colour to serve their own requirements, I never skirted the issue, I told them why they failed as I knew them...but if they wanted their next step was a letter/email to HR and ask why they failed, An answer will be given and advice on what to do to get a better paid job.

Only one took it further, A very educated man, A very likable man, Always came on time, Helped others I was just as concerned so follwed it up on his behalf, It's a time consuming process, After 2-3 weeks I was called to HR with the Gentleman concerned and shown some paperwork, He came to us from a company that was already owned by the company...transfered with a huge pay increase £18k to £32k, But had a discapline against him at the other company, I was educated on this matter as I never new it excisted, He was charged and found guilty of bullying another male from his own Country, The complainant was from a different Caste(upper class)to the person he was bullying...lower caste(lower class)in their Country there appears to be a system going back 100s of years where the job you do or where you live puts you in a pigeon hole that's hard to escape from.

The man was embarrassed when he saw the letter and we left, I recieved an email from a friendly HR Rep who said that if they had had this information when he applied he would have failed in his transfer to us

 

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

12 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I was wrong about Cummings. This evil genius is right out the news since he managed to stir it all up in the US!

Did  the riots start in Barnard castle following an eye test ?

[GboroRam]

10 hours ago, Anon said:

That's a very negative post.

Negative equity, I guess.