v Charlton Athletic (H) - Matchday Thread

[LeedsRam1999]

I think all those criticising Waggy are right in ways but he was class tonight and I still thought he was decent going forward. 
 

A willing runner, got in behind and linked well with the midfield. Seems like he has got his confidence back despite the early miss (anyone who has played football knows when something big happens early in a game you can be caught a little cold to the situation).

Keep the same 10 with Rooney and let them build partnerships, fitness and confidence and you will see some regular goal scorers.

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, BondJovi said:

What stood out for me was the general positive intent, players wanting the ball and willing to try something, yet without the ball incredibly disciplined.

Clarke makes a huge difference but I thought penalty aside Davies had a great game, quite a few times he won the ball Infront of their attacker and then he moved forward, even going beyond the ball at one point. It isn't really his game but he is giving it his all.

Considering the form we are in, the pressure on the game, the second match in 3 we have had to play the majority with 10, you should only really be impressed.

Anyone who doubts what the coaching staff are doing here, look at the reaction between Knight and Scheepers at the end of the game.

Indeed Curtis has come in for some stick this season but he’s a consummate pro.

He’s been our only fit CB at times and has always been available. People seem to forget his age and the fact that hes recently come back from a serious injury that could have had more serious implications for his career. He’s over due a game or two rest in all honesty but we can’t afford to give him one.

On top of this he’s been asked to play a style that he isn’t particularly suited to. Yes he’s made mistakes, but they are honest mistakes as he gives his all.

Im glad we’ve got him at our club despite his limitations and he deserves a lot of credit for his efforts this season!

 

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, Mckram said:

How has Pratley been for you this season? I thought last night he looked well past it.

Yeah he was a player I would loved us to sign when he was at Swansea and bang in form as a goal scoring box to box CM, last night he looked a shadow of that player

[i-Ram]

6 hours ago, Ram8 said:

Strange how only RoyMac, Kash, Goldstar and Tuffluff can see what was glaringly obvious from Waghorn’s (usual) performance last night, albeit obscured by an excellent performance from the other ten ! 

The result and much improved performance by (nine of the) ten men should not hide the fact that Waghorn is contributing nothing to this team, other than pointless running around (like David Nugent before him) and the worst ‘first touch’ of anyone at the club.

If Cocu picks Waghorn ahead of Chris Martin on Thursday a great opportunity for a ‘double act’ of supreme quality first touch football from Rooney and Martin will be lost, and yet another manager will have completely missed the true value of CM’s contribution to this team ! 

You do make me smile, thank you. Are you Chris Martin’s agent?  If you are I hope you are not paid on a goals based commission as he has scored about as many in the last 2 1/2 seasons as Waghorn has this season alone. The coming month will be interesting. Cocu will by now know the ‘striking assets’ he has to play with, and I suspect a new striker in addition to Rooney is on his list.

[Nuwtfly]

The game completely changed when Bielik got sent off. Waghorn had to do a job after that and, for me, he stepped up and did the dirty defensive work that we desperately needed. No way would we have gotten through that game without him. He was vital.

To criticise him like this was a normal 11 v 11 game is so, so harsh.

[Ramarena]

31 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Can you be any more specific as to who you may mean by this vague and ephemeral reference @Ramarena? ?

Not really and like I say maybe just coincidence but given the events of this season the chances for some form of disunity in the dressing room is certainly increased.

[TuffLuff]

I didn’t criticise Waghorn!!!

Thought it was a very mature performance from him last night, something we haven’t seen that much from him considering his age. He’s out of form but he did a good job last night. Especially considering Marriotts much more loose approach to having 10 men.

I always like Ram8’s posts though, I’m more than happy to be considered part of his posse

The Peaky Martin’s?

[Mckram]

Did anybody else think that Waghorn had seriously injured himself celebrating the 2nd goal?
I thought he was going to be out for the season...imagine two freak accidents within a season! 

[Archied]

5 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

Whose top scorer?

Your wasting your time ,wouldn’t matter to some if Waghorn was on 30 goals ,he’s not Martin ,,,,, was pleased when cocu gave Martin his clean slate and started to use him in the team and squad ,, sadly I’m beginning to wish he hadn’t as it’s brought the same old rubbish back from the obsessed with Martin crew ,he must be in the side no matter how his form is ,, every loss would have been a draw if only Martin had stated , every draw would have been a win had Martin started , every win would have been a much better win had Martin started ,, it’s just so wearing ,

he’s a championship player and he has his decent games and goes off form just like all players , he’s not the undroppable god of Derby county

[RamNut]

Watched it again and it was exhausting just to watch.

tremendous effort.

[S8TY]

For anyone who doesn’t think Cocu has passion ...just watch his reaction to Knights second ....that meant a lot ...can’t help but like the man and want him to succeed here 

[May Contain Nuts]

8 hours ago, Ellafella said:

Spot on @Jourdan. That performance reveals a few myths that have been voiced this season:

1. “Cocu has inherited a squad who are not good enough”. “Holmes is at best League 1”. “Wisdom is not the player he was and should not play”. “Lowe is not good enough for the Championship”. These myths are touted as a way of explaining our poor showing this year yet clearly they lack validity in light of what they showed last night.

2. “Jack Marriott is an impact player and can only play from the bench”. Had his constant running been picked up more frequently and some passes given earlier he’d have also been on the scoresheet last night. So why hasn’t he been selected more often this year? He understandably showed moments of frustration last night when his demand for a pass wasn’t answered so the team need to take note. He gave Charlton defenders a lot to do last night as a lone striker. He needs to play as a 2 up front though. 
 

3. The answer is not to blame the quality of the opposition. We should have been 1-0 within 5 seconds last night. {Perhaps 1 of our 6 coaches can find some time to show Waghorn how to “draw” the keeper when 1 on 1 because he clearly makes the wrong decision each time he’s put through. His technique is wrong }. Charlton were not very good but so good were we that we beat them with 10 men. And it clearly wasn’t a penalty - Curtis Davies clearly pulled out of any contact so the attacker clearly cheated on that one and the replay showed it. 

So where did that performance come from? We looked a completely different Club let alone team: very good atmosphere, energy, desire, speed & adrenaline and attacking intent. Why has this been largely absent this season? 
 

I suspect that given the very short turnaround before Thursday there’s a real danger that legs will be heavy v Barnsley and we’ll revert to type; I certainly can’t see Knight re-producing that level of performance so soon { he was nothing short of brilliant last night} and Bird finally showed a performance to justify what others have said he’s capable of...

And did we miss Lawrence? I do wonder why we persist with a player who wantonly squanders so much good possessions in advanced positions. It’s really time to grab that particular nettle. Do we have the courage to do without that particular luxury item? 

So, was it just the “backs to the wall” situation that triggered that or did Cocu and his cast of coaches just get the preparation, formation and approach right? No easy answer but let’s hope we don’t see any more “tinkering” and we learn from those positives - Wisdom can play, Lowe can play, Marriott can play from the start, and we can attack teams and try and win the game, especially when we’re at home. Well done Derby County!

Great performance, nice post, but you've made up some of those myths yourself and/or clearly slanted them in favour of your argument!

“Cocu has inherited a squad who are not good enough” - Nope, the argument wasn't about the squad he'd inherited (which was OK, a mid table squad lacking serious attacking quality), but the one we'd been reduced to since the Preston game - the period during which Cocu has faced most criticism despite having the worst version of his squad available. You could see yesterday just how much of a difference having Matt Clarke back made. The midfield & Max Lowe could push on a bit more because they knew he was behind them, and they clearly trusted Clarke in possession more than Forsyth.

 

“Holmes is at best League 1” - I think I do recall one poster saying that, but I don't think that's been the general consensus. Holmes was mainly used as a squad player last season. He'd shown flashes of brilliance when he had better players / a support network around him last season (a bit like Bogle, who's looked poorer for not having Keogh/WIlson/Mount as passing options), but it was debatable (and still is) whether he could step up and become a regular starter in a team at the top end of the table, whether he could play 90 minutes every week and whether he could show that quality more often. At times this season (especially when Bielik/Shinnie have been missing) he's had to do a lot of the donkey work, go deep to get the ball back, tackle, turn, make the run, find the pass, execute the pass... and he's struggled when he's been given too much responsibility.  He has always 'turned up' though, despite some claims to the contrary.   Conclusion: He's a mid table Championship squad player who could improve further, but he's not good enough to do it all on his own.

 

“Wisdom is not the player he was and should not play” - I don't recall anyone saying Wisdom outright shouldn't play, just that if we play him as a CB it leaves us more exposed at set pieces because he has a habit of trying to outmuscle the attacker rather than jumping to try to win the header. His heading was a lot better yesterday (although we didn't concede many set pieces to test him against). As poor as we've been lately with Forsyth, we've actually looked a lot more solid from corners and free kicks with him in the team.  I've always said that Wisdom in a capable footballer and that I'd be more than happy for him to be our RB, as that's where he performed best for us and more importantly in this league (I'm not reallly bothered what he did in Austria!).

As if Cocu doesn't get accused of being a negative manager enough, can you imagine the response if he wasn't playing our flying full back Bogle every week and opting for Wisdom instead?

 

“Lowe is not good enough for the Championship” - I honestly can't remember a single person saying this (or a married, engaged, or 'in an open relationship' person). They might have said (last season) that he clearly isn't ready based on his performances, but I've not seen anyone this season doing anything other than pointing out how he's benefitted from the loan spell. I think the vast majority of people want to see him in the team.  What is debatable is whether he has that killer pass, or that pinpoint cross in addition to how tidy and impressive the rest of his game is. He was much better yesterday for reasons mentioned above - Clarke coming back but also the greater balance offered by having Wisdom on the other side of the pitch.

 

“Jack Marriott is an impact player and can only play from the bench”  - again, it's a bit of a twist on what people have said. It's also not completely untrue. He isn't a 90 minute, 3 games a week player. He does have his injury problems (muscle strains etc) and has been identified as someone who needs to put in extra work on his general fitness to be able to play more games in this league. No manager is going to give pride of place on a consistent basis to a player who's perceived as not putting his full effort into training.  He was blowing out of his backside towards the end of each half yesterday, he put in a shift but can he do it again so soon? His issue is overall conditioning rather than match fitness, the amount of niggly injuries he picks up can attest to that.  I understand that people want to see him in the team a lot more, but he has to earn it.

 

We shouldn't just say that we only won because the quality of the opposition was so bad, but at the same time we can't go overboard and use the game as definitive proof that the team we put out can and will be able to compete towards the top of the table against a completely diffferent standard of opposition.

Where did that performance come from? Some of that is answered above. Most of all I'd say it's because we finally found / had the ability to put out a well balanced team, mixed with a bit of momentum from the Wigan match, and all srts of other things I can't think of right now!

I can't write any more than that (you'll be glad to know) as there's too much to say and too little time.

Happy new year!

[cafc92]

Congrats all for getting a big three points. It was fully deserved.

 

Charlton were poor throughout and we are all aware of it but everyone is still firmly behind Bowyer. We understand the situation, we know we need some new midfielders and strikers desperately. The January window will make or break our season.

We go into our next game away at Swansea with Darren Pratley, a half fit Conor Gallagher, a half fit Lyle Taylor and then have to plug the gaps with our U23s that we've had to recall from fifth and sixth tier loans.

[rynny]

4 hours ago, Mckram said:

How has Pratley been for you this season? I thought last night he looked well past it.

He looked everyone of his 45 years last night. 

[RamNut]

2 minutes ago, cafc92 said:

Congrats all for getting a big three points. It was fully deserved.

 

Charlton were poor throughout and we are all aware but everyone is still firmly behind Bowyer. We understand the situation, we know we need some new midfielders and strikers desperately. The January window will make or break our season.

We go into our game away at Swansea with Darren Pratley, a half fit Conor Gallagher, a half fit Lyle Taylor and then have to plug the gaps with our U23s that we've had to recall from fifth and sixth tier loans.

We’d be happy to assist.

You are welcome to take Lawrence, jozefzoon, malone, anya, and huddlestone. 

[Ellafella]

27 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Great performance, nice post, but you've made up some of those myths yourself and/or clearly slanted them in favour of your argument!

“Cocu has inherited a squad who are not good enough” - Nope, the argument wasn't about the squad he'd inherited (which was OK, a mid table squad lacking serious attacking quality), but the one we'd been reduced to since the Preston game - the period during which Cocu has faced most criticism despite having the worst version of his squad available. You could see yesterday just how much of a difference having Matt Clarke back made. The midfield & Max Lowe could push on a bit more because they knew he was behind them, and they clearly trusted Clarke in possession more than Forsyth.

 

“Holmes is at best League 1” - I think I do recall one poster saying that, but I don't think that's been the general consensus. Holmes was mainly used as a squad player last season. He'd shown flashes of brilliance when he had better players / a support network around him last season (a bit like Bogle, who's looked poorer for not having Keogh/WIlson/Mount as passing options), but it was debatable (and still is) whether he could step up and become a regular starter in a team at the top end of the table, whether he could play 90 minutes every week and whether he could show that quality more often. At times this season (especially when Bielik/Shinnie have been missing) he's had to do a lot of the donkey work, go deep to get the ball back, tackle, turn, make the run, find the pass, execute the pass... and he's struggled when he's been given too much responsibility.  He has always 'turned up' though, despite some claims to the contrary.   Conclusion: He's a mid table Championship squad player who could improve further, but he's not good enough to do it all on his own.

 

“Wisdom is not the player he was and should not play” - I don't recall anyone saying Wisdom outright shouldn't play, just that if we play him as a CB it leaves us more exposed at set pieces because he has a habit of trying to outmuscle the attacker rather than jumping to try to win the header. His heading was a lot better yesterday (although we didn't concede many set pieces to test him against). As poor as we've been lately with Forsyth, we've actually looked a lot more solid from corners and free kicks with him in the team.  I've always said that Wisdom in a capable footballer and that I'd be more than happy for him to be our RB, as that's where he performed best for us and more importantly in this league (I'm not reallly bothered what he did in Austria!).

As if Cocu doesn't get accused of being a negative manager enough, can you imagine the response if he wasn't playing our flying full back Bogle every week and opting for Wisdom instead?

 

“Lowe is not good enough for the Championship” - I honestly can't remember a single person saying this (or a married, engaged, or 'in an open relationship' person). They might have said (last season) that he clearly isn't ready based on his performances, but I've not seen anyone this season doing anything other than pointing out how he's benefitted from the loan spell. I think the vast majority of people want to see him in the team.  What is debatable is whether he has that killer pass, or that pinpoint cross in addition to how tidy and impressive the rest of his game is. He was much better yesterday for reasons mentioned above - Clarke coming back but also the greater balance offered by having Wisdom on the other side of the pitch.

 

“Jack Marriott is an impact player and can only play from the bench”  - again, it's a bit of a twist on what people have said. It's also not completely untrue. He isn't a 90 minute, 3 games a week player. He does have his injury problems (muscle strains etc) and has been identified as someone who needs to put in extra work on his general fitness to be able to play more games in this league. No manager is going to give pride of place on a consistent basis to a player who's perceived as not putting his full effort into training.  He was blowing out of his backside towards the end of each half yesterday, he put in a shift but can he do it again so soon? His issue is overall conditioning rather than match fitness, the amount of niggly injuries he picks up can attest to that.  I understand that people want to see him in the team a lot more, but he has to earn it.

 

We shouldn't just say that we only won because the quality of the opposition was so bad, but at the same time we can't go overboard and use the game as definitive proof that the team we put out can and will be able to compete towards the top of the table against a completely diffferent standard of opposition.

Where did that performance come from? Some of that is answered above. Most of all I'd say it's because we finally found / had the ability to put out a well balanced team, mixed with a bit of momentum from the Wigan match, and all srts of other things I can't think of right now!

I can't write any more than that (you'll be glad to know) as there's too much to say and too little time.

Happy new year!

No I haven’t @Coconutwith respect nor have I imagined them; however I haven’t got the time nor inclination to re-read this forum and reference them but they have all been stated at some point. 
As you say, one good performance doesn’t suddenly change the landscape and answer all the concerns but I’m just content for now to see a performance that united us all and gave us something to chirp about. How apposite that we all start the New Year on a big positive. 
 

Happy New Year @Coconut. As Orwell famously wrote, “he who controls the past controls the future”. 

[TimRam]

Not seen Derby fight for a result like that for a long, long time. Seen them dominate a match and win by 4 or 5 but last night was something else. Everyone played their part. Well done Derby, made us proud.

[DCFC Ram]

apologies if it has been posted already

I was surprised that Cocu didn't bring on Martin instead of Whitaker near the end of the game.

No major issue as it turned out, but Martin would have won freekicks and kept the ball for the last few minutes.

We needed wise old heads to close the game out not a young runner.

As I say, it didn't matter - but it would have been a better decision.

 

[ossieram]

9 minutes ago, DCFC Ram said:

apologies if it has been posted already

I was surprised that Cocu didn't bring on Martin instead of Whitaker near the end of the game.

No major issue as it turned out, but Martin would have won freekicks and kept the ball for the last few minutes.

We needed wise old heads to close the game out not a young runner.

As I say, it didn't matter - but it would have been a better decision.

 

If it didn't matter and had no negative effect on the result, why bring it up? For all we know, Martin may have come on and dropped a proper cod and cost us the game.

[BondJovi]

One last point that impressed last night, red card and penalty aside, was the discipline in staying on our feet and not giving away free kicks in dangerous areas.