Lawrence and Bennett Convicted of drink driving

[LittleEatonRam]

5 hours ago, KCG said:

Got to have a good laugh at all the angels on here who have never done anything wrong in their lives ?

I get your point, and it’s been made a lot on this forum lately, which is fair enough. None of us are perfect and have unblemished records. I know I don’t.

But I’m afraid different standards apply to footballers. I know that seems unfair, but it’s a fact.

They are paid exceptional wages on exceptional terms of employment. They’re paid whether they play or not, and however well or badly they play. Most people don’t have that luxury. Someone like Lawrence is probably on about £15k a week (and that is probably a conservative estimate). That’s £780,000 per year. More than the best Consultant surgeons in the country, more than some of the most responsible individuals out there. More than some very top level managers at some of the biggest companies in the country. Certainly, if a Exec level employee in the company I work for (who probably aren’t on a fraction of that) did what TL did he’d be sacked without doubt. Because the level of pay dictates a level of behaviour and responsibility. Add into that the fact that professional footballers also have more free time and their wage per hour is astronomical.

They are also (whether they like it or not) role models. I’m not saying they should be – god knows I’d prefer people to idolise those surgeons etc – but they are. They will know this because growing up they will have idolised footballers themselves. And they know this when they decide they want to be one.

What must Philip Cocu think? Before Messi he made the most appearances for Barcelona of any foreign player. Do you think he did anything like this? I’m guessing not. And maybe that’s one of the reasons why he held that record. He knew he had to be a dedicated professional.

Players like Mason Bennett will never make it to that level. He’ll be lucky to have a career in League Two if he’s as professional as this past week has suggested. At Derby since he was a boy. Handsomely rewarded way beyond what he deserves or has shown he might deserve. What a good life this club has given him up to now. Wealthy enough for a Mercedes despite a minimal contribution to Derby County in almost 10 years. The kind of life he probably wouldn’t have managed in any other sphere of life given the legendary void between his ears.

Even if they are not beyond redemption (they clearly aren’t), I’d still get rid of them as they plainly do not have anywhere near the kind of attitude to make it into the kind of player this club needs and wants.

[Owd miner]

2 minutes ago, LittleEatonRam said:

I get your point, and it’s been made a lot on this forum lately, which is fair enough. None of us are perfect and have unblemished records. I know I don’t.

But I’m afraid different standards apply to footballers. I know that seems unfair, but it’s a fact.

They are paid exceptional wages on exceptional terms of employment. They’re paid whether they play or not, and however well or badly they play. Most people don’t have that luxury. Someone like Lawrence is probably on about £15k a week (and that is probably a conservative estimate). That’s £780,000 per year. More than the best Consultant surgeons in the country, more than some of the most responsible individuals out there. More than some very top level managers at some of the biggest companies in the country. Certainly, if a Exec level employee in the company I work for (who probably aren’t on a fraction of that) did what TL did he’d be sacked without doubt. Because the level of pay dictates a level of behaviour and responsibility. Add into that the fact that professional footballers also have more free time and their wage per hour is astronomical.

They are also (whether they like it or not) role models. I’m not saying they should be – god knows I’d prefer people to idolise those surgeons etc – but they are. They will know this because growing up they will have idolised footballers themselves. And they know this when they decide they want to be one.

What must Philip Cocu think? Before Messi he made the most appearances for Barcelona of any foreign player. Do you think he did anything like this? I’m guessing not. And maybe that’s one of the reasons why he held that record. He knew he had to be a dedicated professional.

Players like Mason Bennett will never make it to that level. He’ll be lucky to have a career in League Two if he’s as professional as this past week has suggested. At Derby since he was a boy. Handsomely rewarded way beyond what he deserves or has shown he might deserve. What a good life this club has given him up to now. Wealthy enough for a Mercedes despite a minimal contribution to Derby County in almost 10 years. The kind of life he probably wouldn’t have managed in any other sphere of life given the legendary void between his ears.

Even if they are not beyond redemption (they clearly aren’t), I’d still get rid of them as they plainly do not have anywhere near the kind of attitude to make it into the kind of player this club needs and wants.

Tha knows what mi owd ,that's one o best posts I've ever read on here..

[Rev]

Let's be honest, if you're the legal representative for either you'd be looking to get them medically signed off from work and into a remedial treatment for their obvious problems, in an attempt to lessen the punishment.

 

[Pearl Ram]

Good post @LittleEatonRam but what I’d say to the smart Alec’s trying infer you can’t be pi**ed off with these three is the stuff I’ve done wrong hasn’t impacted on an organisation (or in this case a football club) loved by thousands or disappointed the owner of the said organisation who has done nothing but try to supply the very best facilities for them to ply their trade. 

So they can take their piety and shove it up their arse for they are defending the indefensible in this case.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

2 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Let's be honest, if you're the legal representative for either you'd be looking to get them medically signed off from work and into a remedial treatment for their obvious problems, in an attempt to lessen the punishment.

 

But if I was the player, I'd fully expect any punishment that came my way and would request my legal representative not to try and exploit any loopholes.

[jono]

17 minutes ago, LittleEatonRam said:

I get your point, and it’s been made a lot on this forum lately, which is fair enough. None of us are perfect and have unblemished records. I know I don’t.

But I’m afraid different standards apply to footballers. I know that seems unfair, but it’s a fact.

They are paid exceptional wages on exceptional terms of employment. They’re paid whether they play or not, and however well or badly they play. Most people don’t have that luxury. Someone like Lawrence is probably on about £15k a week (and that is probably a conservative estimate). That’s £780,000 per year. More than the best Consultant surgeons in the country, more than some of the most responsible individuals out there. More than some very top level managers at some of the biggest companies in the country. Certainly, if a Exec level employee in the company I work for (who probably aren’t on a fraction of that) did what TL did he’d be sacked without doubt. Because the level of pay dictates a level of behaviour and responsibility. Add into that the fact that professional footballers also have more free time and their wage per hour is astronomical.

They are also (whether they like it or not) role models. I’m not saying they should be – god knows I’d prefer people to idolise those surgeons etc – but they are. They will know this because growing up they will have idolised footballers themselves. And they know this when they decide they want to be one.

What must Philip Cocu think? Before Messi he made the most appearances for Barcelona of any foreign player. Do you think he did anything like this? I’m guessing not. And maybe that’s one of the reasons why he held that record. He knew he had to be a dedicated professional.

Players like Mason Bennett will never make it to that level. He’ll be lucky to have a career in League Two if he’s as professional as this past week has suggested. At Derby since he was a boy. Handsomely rewarded way beyond what he deserves or has shown he might deserve. What a good life this club has given him up to now. Wealthy enough for a Mercedes despite a minimal contribution to Derby County in almost 10 years. The kind of life he probably wouldn’t have managed in any other sphere of life given the legendary void between his ears.

Even if they are not beyond redemption (they clearly aren’t), I’d still get rid of them as they plainly do not have anywhere near the kind of attitude to make it into the kind of player this club needs and wants.

Yep, that’s about right. Very well expressed.

[KCG]

2 minutes ago, jono said:

Yep, that’s about right. Very well expressed.

To be frank I thought most of it was irrelevant and made emotional judgement calls. Different standards in law cannot, quite rightly, apply to footballers.

[Rev]

18 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

But if I was the player, I'd fully expect any punishment that came my way and would request my legal representative not to try and exploit any loopholes.

Your studying law I believe?

What what be the ethical position for the lawyer to take, follow the wishes of a client possibly against his better interests, or use your judgement to secure him the best possible outcome as the expert in the situation?

[KCG]

Just now, reverendo de duivel said:

Your studying law I believe?

What what be the ethical position for the lawyer to take, follow the wishes of a client possibly against his better interests, or use your judgement to secure him the best possible outcome as the expert in the situation?

His duty as a legal representative is to use the law to defend his client, end of!

[Mckram]

I’m friends with one of Mason’s relatives and to add to that other post, I know that Derby used to bend over backwards for Mason when he was a teenager.

From what they’ve told me in the past he wasn’t from the most privileged of backgrounds and before he earned decent money they used to pay for him to go on holiday with his family and transport to training etc.

He’s probably the one player that owes Derby the most for what they’ve given him.

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

15 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Your studying law I believe?

What what be the ethical position for the lawyer to take, follow the wishes of a client possibly against his better interests, or use your judgement to secure him the best possible outcome as the expert in the situation?

You've stumped me on that one. I imagine I won't be looking at those sort of practicalities until go to law school (for a year after uni), which I'm not sure I'm going to do yet.

However, a quick Google search says this: 'Client always has final say, even if contrary to his best interests. Lawyer can only advise, and encourage. ... A lawyer is generally not "required" to act contrary to his or her lawyer's express wishes because they think it's in the client's best interest.' That's obviously a generic answer on an Internet site, but it seems to make sense. The lawyer shouldn't have a greater level of control over his client's rights than the client himself.

Edit: This will clearly play out in basic decisions in court cases. The lawyer might advise the client to plead guilty, but the client will obviously, and rightly, have the final say.

[jono]

23 minutes ago, KCG said:

To be frank I thought most of it was irrelevant and made emotional judgement calls. Different standards in law cannot, quite rightly, apply to footballers.

Well you enjoy having your little pokes. It wasn’t irrelevant. It was a logical stance well expressed. Obviously you disagree, but irrelevant, emotional ? Not at all. It was a proposition, well argued. There was No suggestion that different legal standards should apply .. where did you get that one from ? He didn’t say that (clever little misdirection but failed for me ) 

.. yes an assumption that sports stars might have to have a different standard of behaviour but the same thing can be applied to politicians or TV personalities  who are pilloried for social transgressions. Thing is, right or wrong .. it’s true if you want to succeed 

[Rev]

1 minute ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

You've stumped me on that one. I wouldn't be looking at those sort of practicalities until I went to law school (for a year after uni) I'd imagine. 

However, a quick Google search says this: 'Client always has final say, even if contrary to his best interests. Lawyer can only advise, and encourage. ... A lawyer is generally not "required" to act contrary to his or her lawyer's express wishes because they think it's in the client's best interest.' That's obviously a generic answer on an Internet site, but it seems to make sense. The lawyer shouldn't have a greater level of control over his client's rights than the client himself.

Fair answer.

If I was in their situation though, I'd be doing my upmost to keep lucrative contract intact though.

You'd like to think they'd hold their hands up and accept the consequence of their actions, but then again you'd like to think they wouldn't have put themselves in the situation in the 1st place.

[jono]

@KCG .. little tears face .. jolly good, but you avoid responding to the fact that you were challenged on an inaccuracy. Glib and a rather unworthy. Without wanting to be too bellicose, in a word, Weak. 

?

[RamNut]

We've all done stupid things, dafts things, things we might regret and things that we could have ended up in trouble for. But i'm not sure that many of us could quite match this sequence of events. And despite the  recognition that keogh has been a great servant, and mason bennett would run through a brick wall for the club ( according to frank), the fact is that there are multiple sequential acts of gross misconduct if the evidence is to be believed. 

For an internal investigation, players have to be interviewed seperately.  All three should be kept away whilst these investigations proceed. Any  suspension has to extend to the date of the courtcase and beyond. This isn't any easy matter to investigate because players will be taking legal and PFA advice regarding the questions they face, and the possibility that whatever they say might become relevant to legal proceedings. Its a real mess with big sums of money potentially at stake. 

I'm not sure how it could ever be considered appropriate for the three players to be involved in anything at present. And it would be a huge distraction to our matchday preparations. 

[DesertRam]

1 hour ago, LittleEatonRam said:

I get your point, and it’s been made a lot on this forum lately, which is fair enough. None of us are perfect and have unblemished records. I know I don’t.

But I’m afraid different standards apply to footballers. I know that seems unfair, but it’s a fact.

They are paid exceptional wages on exceptional terms of employment. They’re paid whether they play or not, and however well or badly they play. Most people don’t have that luxury. Someone like Lawrence is probably on about £15k a week (and that is probably a conservative estimate). That’s £780,000 per year. More than the best Consultant surgeons in the country, more than some of the most responsible individuals out there. More than some very top level managers at some of the biggest companies in the country. Certainly, if a Exec level employee in the company I work for (who probably aren’t on a fraction of that) did what TL did he’d be sacked without doubt. Because the level of pay dictates a level of behaviour and responsibility. Add into that the fact that professional footballers also have more free time and their wage per hour is astronomical.

They are also (whether they like it or not) role models. I’m not saying they should be – god knows I’d prefer people to idolise those surgeons etc – but they are. They will know this because growing up they will have idolised footballers themselves. And they know this when they decide they want to be one.

What must Philip Cocu think? Before Messi he made the most appearances for Barcelona of any foreign player. Do you think he did anything like this? I’m guessing not. And maybe that’s one of the reasons why he held that record. He knew he had to be a dedicated professional.

Players like Mason Bennett will never make it to that level. He’ll be lucky to have a career in League Two if he’s as professional as this past week has suggested. At Derby since he was a boy. Handsomely rewarded way beyond what he deserves or has shown he might deserve. What a good life this club has given him up to now. Wealthy enough for a Mercedes despite a minimal contribution to Derby County in almost 10 years. The kind of life he probably wouldn’t have managed in any other sphere of life given the legendary void between his ears.

Even if they are not beyond redemption (they clearly aren’t), I’d still get rid of them as they plainly do not have anywhere near the kind of attitude to make it into the kind of player this club needs and wants.

Great post, and I fully agree with almost all of your views, except for the last paragraph.

I tend to think that most people, need an "awakening" moment every now and then, to keep them on the right path.

However, don't think they should have to feel that their lives are under constant review, because they are in a profession 

that most people aspire to.

As you say, they are not beyond redemption, and I'm betting this will never happen again, with any of those involved, so

a second chance isn't out of the question for me.

[desirelines]

This thread appears to be going in circles

 

[i-Ram]

19 minutes ago, desirelines said:

This thread appears to be going in circles

We can’t all desire lines.

[Brammie Steve]

6 hours ago, Boycie said:

Don’t let Boro find out you’ve piled all your money into the club.

jeez.

Gone right over my bald head that!

[TommyPowell]

8 hours ago, cannable said:

The transport was arranged for 8, they decided to stay after the arranged transport left 

to drink coffee ?