The Politics Thread 2019

[ariotofmyown]

20 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Jess Phillips, she would run rings round Johnson. Totally authentic but think could be pragmatic too.

As I was saying...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/14/working-class-voters-didnt-trust-labour-jess-phillips

[Norman]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

As I was saying...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/14/working-class-voters-didnt-trust-labour-jess-phillips

'The truth is, there is a clique who don’t care if our appeal has narrowed, as long as they have control of the institutions and ideas of the party.' 

And this is the problem of the Labour Party. And I can't see it changing. The way the electing of the next Leader works, Labour will not be elected in the next two decades. It is completely overrun by far left activists. 

[Norman]

Interesting articles about social media today. 

Left wing bubbles that need popping. Instead of places to debate openly with free speech, they have become echo chambers of a few people's views. Mainly middle class luvvies. 

The hashtag #youthquake and 4 other pro Labour hashtag were all in the top 5 trending in this country on the day of the election. People started to believe in hung parliaments etc. 

They are a place of intolerance, aggression and misunderstanding right now. A place where you can call working class people stupid, racist, selfish etc.

Not too dissimilar from here at times. Although I will give this forum a lot of credit for giving us some where to debate more fairly. And it is lucky that the user base is fairly even in political views. 

[G STAR RAM]

Wow. Stay classy.

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

'The truth is, there is a clique who don’t care if our appeal has narrowed, as long as they have control of the institutions and ideas of the party.' 

And this is the problem of the Labour Party. And I can't see it changing. The way the electing of the next Leader works, Labour will not be elected in the next two decades. It is completely overrun by far left activists. 

There will be a major power struggle over the next few months, and in respect of the Leadership vote it will be interesting where the Unions will position themselves. It is pretty clear the Party is swamped with Momentum blinkered Activists, and therefore they will be pushing for a Leader offering ‘“more of the same” Marxist garbage. Red Len and his buddies though must surely wake up and start smelling the coffee as there is no chance of influence without power.  
I suspect a period of in-fighting is more likely than a period of reflection.

[Sith Happens]

5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Wow. Stay classy.

An example of one classy statement from one of the protesters.

"[Boris Johnson] is a pig and I’m so ashamed that he’s the prime minister of my country, it’s disgusting and I wish him the worst, I wish him a horrible death,”

 

[maxjam]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Wow. Stay classy.

 

Woah careful, its only happening in Glasgow.  According to some you're showing your right wing agenda now. ?

Protesters 'this is what democracy looks like'

Normal people 'Uhm, we've just voted, you're protesting the result of a democratic election'

Protesters 'we've got to save of NHS'

Meanwhile, in the real world...

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-to-enshrine-16334bn-nhs-spending-pledge-into-law-11887014

 

 

[Sith Happens]

You have to hand it to the Protesters. To have the forsight to arrange all the materials and banners, book their annual leave off work so they could travel into London.

Unless they all threw sickies to go in and protest.

[i-Ram]

I’ve taken to calling my wife Jeremy over recent days, as she too has a delusional belief that she wins all the arguments. 
 

I only call her Jeremy in my head obviously, as she would definitely be victorious if it came to physical blows.

[Sasha]

Hoping Diane Abacus gets the job. Comedy gold for years 

[TimRam]

What goes beep beep beep beep? Len McCluskeys secondary picketing transport bus reversing back into it's garage.

[Uptherams]

4 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

As I was saying...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/14/working-class-voters-didnt-trust-labour-jess-phillips

Jess Phillips would go down as well as Swinson did. 

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, Norman said:

Interesting articles about social media today. 

Left wing bubbles that need popping. Instead of places to debate openly with free speech, they have become echo chambers of a few people's views. Mainly middle class luvvies. 

The hashtag #youthquake and 4 other pro Labour hashtag were all in the top 5 trending in this country on the day of the election. People started to believe in hung parliaments etc. 

They are a place of intolerance, aggression and misunderstanding right now. A place where you can call working class people stupid, racist, selfish etc.

Not too dissimilar from here at times. Although I will give this forum a lot of credit for giving us some where to debate more fairly. And it is lucky that the user base is fairly even in political views. 

 

The (far) left bubble absolutely needs popping.  One of the main problems is people like Owen Jones and Ask Sarkor being given regular columns in papers such as The Guardian and prominent slots on tv shows.

Ash Sarkor, the one who went on Good Morning Britain or whatever its called and said, 'I'm basically a communist you idiot' and Owen Jones who regularly lays the blame of all minorities woes at the feet of the uneducated, racist working class are seen as over-educated, middle class trumped up twits - its no wonder then that the working class turned their back on them. 

There was a good exchange I read on twitter between Owen Jones and David Baddiel a couple of days ago thats either since been deleted or I just can't find it anymore.  Basically Baddiel accused Jones of attacking his own voters by calling them 'centrists', 'tory-lite' or 'blairites' etc, derogatory terms that helped alienate a good percentage of the Labour vote. 

If Labour ever want to get into power again, they need to engage their core audience and set out policies that would actually benefit them.  Not lay all of societies ills at their doorstep and champion minorites at their expense. 

[Highgate]

Johnson and Gove have been clear that they intend to deny Scotland it's request for a second independence referendum.  Absolutely ruled out apparently.  This is monumentally stupid position to take if they want to preserve the Union, as preventing another vote is bound to increase support for the SNP.  Given that the post Brexit future facing Scotland now is dramatically different from that of 2014, their wish for another referendum seems entirely reasonable.

On the other hand if Johnson and Gove are lying (they wouldn't would they?) and they actually want to break the Union apart, then they are playing it very astutely. 

[GB SPORTS]

2 hours ago, Paul71 said:

You have to hand it to the Protesters. To have the forsight to arrange all the materials and banners, book their annual leave off work so they could travel into London.

Unless they all threw sickies to go in and protest.

What work?

[GB SPORTS]

2 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Johnson and Gove have been clear that they intend to deny Scotland it's request for a second independence referendum.  Absolutely ruled out apparently.  This is monumentally stupid position to take if they want to preserve the Union, as preventing another vote is bound to increase support for the SNP.  Given that the post Brexit future facing Scotland now is dramatically different from that of 2014, their wish for another referendum seems entirely reasonable.

On the other hand if Johnson and Gove are lying (they wouldn't would they?) and they actually want to break the Union apart, then they are playing it very astutely. 

There is a large groundswell within the tory rank and file to jettison Scotland from the union as it wouldn't necessary be an awful outcome.

 

This on two counts:

 

1. What Scotland costs England to be part of the Union (possibly).

2. This act would ensure a tory majority for eternity.

 

 

 

[Angry Ram]

15 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Johnson and Gove have been clear that they intend to deny Scotland it's request for a second independence referendum.  Absolutely ruled out apparently.  This is monumentally stupid position to take if they want to preserve the Union, as preventing another vote is bound to increase support for the SNP.  Given that the post Brexit future facing Scotland now is dramatically different from that of 2014, their wish for another referendum seems entirely reasonable.

On the other hand if Johnson and Gove are lying (they wouldn't would they?) and they actually want to break the Union apart, then they are playing it very astutely. 

There is little support in Scotland though, just SNP egos.. I suppose the argument is, let them have it and then bury it once and for all.

Just what would the Jocks do if they left anyway? The euro, a border between us and them? All the arguments they had about staying would flip and they would be in deep do do. 

Let her have her  5 mins and then she will go away.

 

They make a mess of what they control anyway.. 

[Tamworthram]

5 minutes ago, WHAT DO I GET said:

There is a large groundswell within the tory rank and file to jettison Scotland from the union as it wouldn't necessary be an awful outcome.

 

This on two counts:

 

1. What Scotland costs England to be part of the Union (possibly).

2. This act would ensure a tory majority for eternity.

 

 

 

And the evidence to support your statements is where?

[Highgate]

Just now, WHAT DO I GET said:

There is a large groundswell within the tory rank and file to jettison Scotland from the union as it wouldn't necessary be an awful outcome.

This on two counts:

1. What Scotland costs England to be part of the Union (possibly).

2. This act would ensure a tory majority for eternity.

There is a logic to that from the Tory point of view.   But if that's the case then you believe the Tory leadership is being disingenuous in it's stated position of trying to preserve the Union?

[Highgate]

Just now, Angry Ram said:

There is little support in Scotland though, just SNP egos.. I suppose the argument is, let them have it and then bury it once and for all.

Just what would the Jocks do if they left anyway? The euro, a border between us and them? All the arguments they had about staying would flip and they would be in deep do do. 

Let her have her  5 mins and then she will go away.

 

They make a mess of what they control anyway.. 

It stands to reason that there is more support now for independence than there was in 2014.  Then it was independence vs remaining in the UK and the EU.  Now it would be Independence + Remaining in the EU vs Remaining in the UK.   That's a considerable change, and Scotland voted to remain in the Brexit referendum. 

All the issues that you present as inhibiting a vote for independence now, were also present in the 2014 and they still got 45%.  Now there is the added incentive that by voting to leave they UK they can remain in the EU.  I think it's a mistake to believe that the SNP will just go away until, that is, they achieve their goal.