The Politics Thread 2019

[maxjam]

10 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

They won't be doing one of those will they? Nigel has spoken.

They'd have people believe its because the term is risible and associated with lies and betrayal by the "traditional" parties.

A cynic might think its because they really don't have anything much to say outside of the Brexit soundbites. 

I saw a TV interview recently in which Farage said a manifesto would be coming after the Euro Elections.  It will be interesting to see what they stand for apart from Brexit.

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 hours ago, 1of4 said:

A party started purely for the benefit of it's leader. A man who as conned the nation into believing that he cares about this country and it's people.

A party that will probably get a lot of votes in the European elections. Thus ennobling Farage to carry on with his lies.

President Trump as lied and conned the people of America into believing his tax policies would be good for them, that he could easily replace Obama care with a better scheme thats cheaper for them, that he would work hard in the White House. I've watched aghast that many ordinary people still support him and with some amusement thinking the people of this country would never fall for anything like that over here.

Farage appears to be using the same blueprint. Playing on peoples fears and prejudices, the uncertain times arising from the country's disgruntlement of main stream politicians. Also like Trump, he likes to make himself out as a man of the people and all the time calling opponents failures and liars.

Don't forget - a man who claims to despise the political elite but who is so desperate to become one of them and be accepted by them that he has stood for election to Parliament on seven occasions in the last 25 years.

[GboroRam]

26 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I saw a TV interview recently in which Farage said a manifesto would be coming after the Euro Elections.  It will be interesting to see what they stand for apart from Brexit.

Why no manifesto before the election? Why not outline what you stand for before asking for support in an election? Call me cynical... 

[Gritstone Ram]

I have defected from the conservatives to the Brexit Party. Onwards and upwards

[maxjam]

15 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Why no manifesto before the election? Why not outline what you stand for before asking for support in an election? Call me cynical... 

Because the party has only been around for a few weeks, the Euro Elections are rapidly approaching and their stance on that is pretty clear.  There is plenty of time to release a General Election manifesto assuming the Tories don't self destruct in the next couple of months.

[1of4]

2 hours ago, maxjam said:

Because the party has only been around for a few weeks, the Euro Elections are rapidly approaching and their stance on that is pretty clear.  There is plenty of time to release a General Election manifesto assuming the Tories don't self destruct in the next couple of months.

I'm sure Farage as had time to write down on the back of his fag packet, the same beliefs and policies that he had Ukip put in their manifesto, when he was the leader of that party.

[Parsnip]

11 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

The Brexit Party is an amazing coalition of right and left, black (and minority ethnic) and white...

...

One notable thing is that the Brexit Party is an amazing...

I would've thought you were more difficult to amaze than most, being a cosmologist and that.

If you say "The Brexit Party is an amazing..." too often you'll start to sound robotic and repetitive, like a politician.

[Day]

16 hours ago, Boycie said:

What’s the general verdict on The Brexit Party?

Waiting to hear yours, if you’re voting for them I will stay well clear,.

If you’re not, I might consider it.

[Stive Pesley]

12 hours ago, maxjam said:

If they fight a general election and include protecting free speech in their manifesto they will become very tempting to a lot of people.

I'm sure it will tempt some people, which is sad in itself, as you know it won't be a properly thought out commitment to protecting free speech - just a populist bray about being able to say what you want, when you want and to whomever you want  - without fear of reprisal. That's not what free speech means

It would also be interesting to see what a Brexit party would offer to do for the poor, the disabled, the old and the unemployed. They are selling "Brexit" as the answer to everything, but it's just a placebo. All they really want to is gain power/wealth at the expense of others general dissatisfaction with the failed neoliberal agenda. There are no answers in the Brexit being offered by wealthy ex-city types like Farage. Not for the likes of us anyway

There will be the brief thrill of feeling like we achieved some sort of payback and then what?

Only one party is even thinking about trying to fix the root causes that lead us to all feel this way, and it's not the Brexit party

 

 

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

Nigel Farage is the Paul Clement of politicians. Superficially sensible, but scratch away and look for the actual achievements and you uncover a complete fraud.......?

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, StivePesley said:

I'm sure it will tempt some people, which is sad in itself, as you know it won't be a properly thought out commitment to protecting free speech - just a populist bray about being able to say what you want, when you want and to whomever you want  - without fear of reprisal. That's not what free speech means

Free speech and encroaching censorship are increasingly two of the most important issues of our time.  Whether they will even be part of a Brexit Party manifesto is debatable - and a topic for a thread of its own.

As for Farage and his Brexit Party who knows what they may or may not put forwards, I'll reserve judgement until I see what their ideas are.  What years and years of Tory/Labour governments have shown us however (as has the Brexit mess), its that politics is ready for an overhaul - it stopped being for the average person a long time ago.

[Uptherams]

I'm beginning to think that the Brexit Party will win both of the next elections. The European election and General. The difference being they will get the largest vote share in the General election but a few dozen seats. As far as they are concerned they've then broken our political system. 

They will come out with clear vote winners. Stuff like increasing the tax threshold and supporting sole traders and small businesses. 25% of the vote in the next General election will probably be the biggest party. Quite unbelievable. 

[Boycie]

We’re only making plans for Nigel, oh oooooooh!

[Archied]

There are really only two parties and room for a third ,, capitalists and socialist and they historically curbed the excesses of each other ,it all went wrong when labour decided to become the Conservative party because they hadn’t been in power for ages and showed no signs of ever getting in again now it’s all a bit like when football hooligans stopped wearing scarves and became casuals , nobody knows who the feck is who until it’s too late and the damage done 

[Stive Pesley]

20 minutes ago, Archied said:

There are really only two parties and room for a third ,, capitalists and socialist and they historically curbed the excesses of each other ,it all went wrong when labour decided to become the Conservative party because they hadn’t been in power for ages and showed no signs of ever getting in again now it’s all a bit like when football hooligans stopped wearing scarves and became casuals , nobody knows who the feck is who until it’s too late and the damage done 

Pretty much - there were things done by Thatcher when she came to power that have proved almost impossible to reverse. The moves into deregulation and letting the free market run riot may have had positive effects in the short to medium term, but we're now at a point where those who hold power (the banks, the media, the super-rich) have too much of a vested interest in things continuing as they are. Hence the universal kicking that Corbyn gets for daring to suggest we even try to reverse some of these things. We cannot have never ending growth - yet the global economy is set up to expect exactly that. And the shareholders are more important than the general public.

As it stands the cliche about it not mattering who you vote for "the government always get in" has never been more true. Global market forces govern the world, not politicians - they are just the conduit

The tipping point is when the system starts to work for fewer people than it fails. Brexit is just a howl of rage from a disenfranchised populace. It won't make any difference if it happens or not. Depressing really

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

The tipping point is when the system starts to work for fewer people than it fails. Brexit is just a howl of rage from a disenfranchised populace. It won't make any difference if it happens or not. Depressing really

This is true and sadly it is all too easy for opportunistic chancers to misrepresent themselves as providing some sort of "cure" for the ills of our economy, when in reality they are closer to being the underlying cause of the ills.

[jono]

41 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Pretty much - there were things done by Thatcher when she came to power that have proved almost impossible to reverse. The moves into deregulation and letting the free market run riot may have had positive effects in the short to medium term, but we're now at a point where those who hold power (the banks, the media, the super-rich) have too much of a vested interest in things continuing as they are. Hence the universal kicking that Corbyn gets for daring to suggest we even try to reverse some of these things. We cannot have never ending growth - yet the global economy is set up to expect exactly that. And the shareholders are more important than the general public.

As it stands the cliche about it not mattering who you vote for "the government always get in" has never been more true. Global market forces govern the world, not politicians - they are just the conduit

The tipping point is when the system starts to work for fewer people than it fails. Brexit is just a howl of rage from a disenfranchised populace. It won't make any difference if it happens or not. Depressing really

You’re right Stiv, we can’t have never ending growth but as a counterpoint to that you can’t have something that you can’t afford

why not ? 

1) The relative (to past times) poverty of the west as it’s industry has been overtaken by less scrupulous and civilised competitors. Yeah yeah the super rich .Sure, they still be cream loads off the edges but we don’t create wealth as we used to and demonising and taxing  the rich won’t in the long term solve the undeniable fact that as a whole, we buy more than we sell, and we have got used to a certain standard of societal benefits that exceed our national profit. (And have done for the last 40 years meaning we’ve maxed out our credit card ) 

2) the failure of Marxist / Communism because it didn’t and cannot recognise and accept human nature. But Jezza the 1970’s uni student and Macdonald the Marxist class warrior in suit aren’t interested in that because they’d be in the politburo telling us all how to behave for the good of all. 

 

 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, jono said:

You’re right Stiv, we can’t have never ending growth but as a counterpoint to that you can’t have something that you can’t afford

why not ? 

1) The relative (to past times) poverty of the west as it’s industry has been overtaken by less scrupulous and civilised competitors. Yeah yeah the super rich .Sure, they still be cream loads off the edges but we don’t create wealth as we used to and demonising and taxing  the rich won’t in the long term solve the undeniable fact that as a whole, we buy more than we sell, and we have got used to a certain standard of societal benefits that exceed our national profit. (And have done for the last 40 years meaning we’ve maxed out our credit card ) 

The Sunday Times rich list showed that  the richest 1,000 people in the UK are sitting on of £771.3bn of wealth - that's up £47.8bn since last year. How can we  even fathom that as some sort of workable system?

We don't create wealth as we used to - meaning, the money no longer trickles down - it actively flows upwards. They've spent long enough perfecting the system. If you don't think we should even try and fix that, then what's the point?

 

[jono]

1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

The Sunday Times rich list showed that  the richest 1,000 people in the UK are sitting on of £771.3bn of wealth - that's up £47.8bn since last year. How can we  even fathom that as some sort of workable system?

We don't create wealth as we used to - meaning, the money no longer trickles down - it actively flows upwards. They've spent long enough perfecting the system. If you don't think we should even try and fix that, then what's the point?

 

Sure try and fix it but you don’t fix it with an antiquated bankrup ideology such as Corbyn and Macdonald advance. Theirs is impractical, illogical, doesn’t add up and would simply swap one elite for another - as has been proven in Russia, Venezuela and Nazi Germany. It’s bile ridden jealous dog poo without an element of honesty or arithmetic. And as a final nail it makes the state and the ideology more powerful than the individual. It’s loathsome from the ground up - it is very clever at masking it with populism and appealing to the mob. All these crude deologies from American Rednecks to Stalin .. all the same. Appeal to base instinct and find yourself in a different sort of chains 

 

[Stive Pesley]

12 hours ago, jono said:

Sure try and fix it but you don’t fix it with an antiquated bankrup ideology such as Corbyn and Macdonald advance. Theirs is impractical, illogical, doesn’t add up and would simply swap one elite for another - as has been proven in Russia, Venezuela and Nazi Germany.

That's the danger with all forms of government - which is why any "new way" has to have accountability in-built and as much power as possible in the hands of the public. People's banks, public housing societies, greater methods of democracy, workers in the boardroom etc

Who was it who said "if you meet someone in power, ask them 5 things. What power do you have? How did you get that power? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how do we get rid of you?"

That still sounds like a pretty strong framework to adhere to if you ask me.

I'm more bothered about that than falling for the media hysteria about how "Corbyn will definitely bankrupt the country"