The Politics Thread 2019

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

There is plenty of research out there by independents.  The question needing to be asked is why the gov, ie Matt Handcock has gagged NHS reports into brexit impact.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Brexit-and-the-NHS-.pdf

https://www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/medical-school-interview/nhs-hot-topics-2018-19/nhs-brexit-effect-of-brexit-on-nhs/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

Read the whole article, particularly...

Mr Osborne told Radio 4's Today that leaving the EU would be an "irreversible" step that would cause "financial instability" and leave the UK "with no economic plan", demanding an immediate response from government.

"There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.

So you happily follow a man with no plan, except leave the EU.  What happens after we leave? Where is the plan, where is the next steps?

Christ knows what we did for the 500 million years before we joined the e.u

The empire, commonwealth and all of that Victorian wealth was obviously a ploy by farage the sneaky bar steward.

We will surely never prosper again without the direct supervision of those winners in the e.u.

I doff my cap to them. 

[Stive Pesley]

16 minutes ago, Needless said:

Also, Corbyn would definately bankrupt the country...

You hear this said a lot. It's interesting that so many people seem so utterly convinced of the fact. When pressed to explain the best you get back is the "his sort always do". Would be nice to hear a slightly more convincing argument than that. Any takers? (genuine  question)

 

[Bound 2 tease]

5 hours ago, Norman said:

Record numbers of EU nationals now in work.

Number surpasses the dip after the original Brexit vote.

And the trend is set to keep rising.

You mean there weren't all here to tak "your" benefits after all, and freedom of movement is  benefiting the economy ?

 

[G STAR RAM]

12 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

You hear this said a lot. It's interesting that so many people seem so utterly convinced of the fact. When pressed to explain the best you get back is the "his sort always do". Would be nice to hear a slightly more convincing argument than that. Any takers? (genuine  question)

 

Not my personal answer as I've never really investigated whether his figures stack up, but isn't the basic premise that by trying to inflict more taxes upon the people that already pay the lions share he would drive them away all together?

[Bound 2 tease]

2 hours ago, McRamFan said:

There is plenty of research out there by independents.  The question needing to be asked is why the gov, ie Matt Handcock has gagged NHS reports into brexit impact.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Brexit-and-the-NHS-.pdf

https://www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/medical-school-interview/nhs-hot-topics-2018-19/nhs-brexit-effect-of-brexit-on-nhs/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

Read the whole article, particularly...

Mr Osborne told Radio 4's Today that leaving the EU would be an "irreversible" step that would cause "financial instability" and leave the UK "with no economic plan", demanding an immediate response from government.

"There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.

So you happily follow a man with no plan, except leave the EU.  What happens after we leave? Where is the plan, where is the next steps?

What are you picking on Farage for, he's the Messiah ...

We else could get millions to march on Parliament from Sunderland  . From Wetherspoons to Wetherspoons , the UK's largest ever pubcrawl.  

What did our Nigel say "just you wait and see. I'll tear them limb from limb", and what actually happened

Herotic rhetoric or a dismal failure , literally failed organise his own p** up 

Seems anything more than a cross in box is too much effort for his supporters, even cheap booze.

He is an affable bloke, just talks rubbish. ...like the village idiot/pub bore, fun to have around, but not to be  taken seriously .

So he's not the Messiah, he's just a very naughty boy, 

Don't forget Vote Brexit Party, the party with inbuilt obsolescence, the only party who's candidates are actively seeking to destroy their own positions...... (although labour and conservatives are doing something very similar) 

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not my personal answer as I've never really investigated whether his figures stack up, but isn't the basic premise that by trying to inflict more taxes upon the people that already pay the lions share he would drive them away all together?

That's one common argument about raising the top band of tax, but I don't think there is a great deal of evidence for it being true. The last Labour manifesto wanted to raise the top rate from 45% to 50%. It was 60% under Thatcher so go figure

It was 50% between 2010 and 2012 and the evidence suggested that the high earners didn't flee - they just deployed more cunning avoidance methods (tax take in that bracket went down)

To be honest though, rather than hammer our domestic successful business owners, Corbyn has mainly spoken about getting global corps to pay their fair taxes for money earned in our country. I dont think that's a controversial idea. These corps have already fled to the Caymans financially, so they can't be driven away any further

[Norman]

24 minutes ago, Bound 2 tease said:

You mean there weren't all here to tak "your" benefits after all, and freedom of movement is  benefiting the economy ?

 

No, i mean posters on this thread were stating EU nationals were leaving in their numbers. Apparently not. Even with uncertainty.

Not debating if its a good thing or not. Wage compression, housing and services etc is complicated.

But if you want to make out i'm on benefits or that I think all immigration is a bad thing, then pipe down.

[maxjam]

47 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

You hear this said a lot. It's interesting that so many people seem so utterly convinced of the fact. When pressed to explain the best you get back is the "his sort always do". Would be nice to hear a slightly more convincing argument than that. Any takers? (genuine  question)

 

Don't know much about Labours economic policy tbh but a very quick google search produced this;

https://www.ft.com/content/a58f5490-c004-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7

[MaltRam]

23 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

You hear this said a lot. It's interesting that so many people seem so utterly convinced of the fact. When pressed to explain the best you get back is the "his sort always do". Would be nice to hear a slightly more convincing argument than that. Any takers? (genuine  question)

 

Well, firstly, his sort do always do! As a first approximation that's a pretty convincing argument. Point to a socialist country which has worked? The best examples are the social democracies of Scandinavia I guess, but that model would be a stretch in the UK. His support of Maduro cannot lightly be dismissed, neither can McDonnell's Little Red Book fiasco.

Secondly, competence is a factor. Corbyn is a natural campaigner, an outsider, an agitator. Place him in charge of a major political party and predictably enough the People's Front of Judea scene is recreated before our eyes. The party has split, certainly to a greater extent than at any time since Michael Foot, (probably ever) and it could get a hell of a lot worse in short order. Place him (and his backroom team of common room Trots) in charge of a major nation? Terrifying.

On which note, thirdly, how would he make us look abroad and how would that affect investment? Take a look at the Trump visit. (Coda to this: Trump is a banker, let's not argue that point). The Tories and HRH have rightly swallowed their distaste and are supporting a state visit. Not by Donald Trump, but by the President of the USA, if you get the distinction. THE vital ally we have. Corbyn's reaction is in character...to boycott. How will he act, and be viewed, if in power? As a man who can be worked with, an ally, or an untrustworthy ('our friends in Hamas and Hezbollah'!!!) dead loss to be avoided? I don't see the US, or other major nations, or their major businesses beating a path to his door.

Domestic policy. Renationalisation of Royal Mail, trains, energy and water. Total cost of that? Maybe £200bn by the time he's done. I've some sympathy on the trains thing but the markets won't. Do nationalised industries tend to efficiency? Or to overmanning and fat expense? How would the unions who own Corbyn react? By agreeing efficiency savings and modern working practice, or digging in for better T's and C's, wage hikes...which one happened last time we had a socialist government? How would global capital (faceless, fluid, international, without compassion) react to such a move? Would it see investment in the UK as safer, or as riskier?

Tax policy. He's going to tax the rich. That's fine by me in theory, but what do the rich do when they're taxed to buggery? Not the 40% tax paying tech guy or middle manager, the actual rich...they clear off to more accomodating parts. Leaving us worse off. He's going to tax those middle class wallahs too...and he's going to pay higher minimum wage, thereby reducing the incentive to push on with a career. He's going to tax business harder. Business will take that as a cue to relocate if they can.

Spending will be through the roof. The last manifesto had approximately £50bn in extra spending, against a then current UK budget of around £750bn. I'd bet a quid to a pinch of poo that his idealism (or his base) wouldn't allow him to reject claims from other areas too. It was claimed that this spending was costed...but that's based on the tax policy I feel is going to reduce rather than increase our tax take in the medium term.

I'm pretty certain none of this will convince you because it's all standard capitalist vs socialist fare, and I know you're engaged enough to know these arguments and have heard them better put than I have here, but I'm still more certain that it's true. Corbyn would break us, so long as he managed to remain in power. That's the only thing up for debate; whether he'd break the nation or his own government first.

 

[McRamFan]

43 minutes ago, Norman said:

No, i mean posters on this thread were stating EU nationals were leaving in their numbers. Apparently not. Even with uncertainty.

Not debating if its a good thing or not. Wage compression, housing and services etc is complicated.

But if you want to make out i'm on benefits or that I think all immigration is a bad thing, then pipe down.

They are, 1/3rd of the staff at the home my mother is in, have left, and gone back to their homes in Europe, 2 Polish 1 Spanish, 1 Indian, 2 Dutch and 3 from the Philippines.

Or maybe they haven't and all bought Harry Potter invisibility cloaks.

[G STAR RAM]

31 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

They are, 1/3rd of the staff at the home my mother is in, have left, and gone back to their homes in Europe, 2 Polish 1 Spanish, 1 Indian, 2 Dutch and 3 from the Philippines.

Or maybe they haven't and all bought Harry Potter invisibility cloaks.

Well that's that sorted then. 

What are the reasons for them leaving out of interest?

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

 

[Norman]

48 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

They are, 1/3rd of the staff at the home my mother is in, have left, and gone back to their homes in Europe, 2 Polish 1 Spanish, 1 Indian, 2 Dutch and 3 from the Philippines.

Or maybe they haven't and all bought Harry Potter invisibility cloaks.

Sounds like you could write a Harry Potter novel tbh.

There are now more EU nationals working in this country than ever before. 

Maybe your mum's home should pay a better wage? But then they don't have to, do they? Plenty of workers to choose from.

[McRamFan]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well that's that sorted then. 

What are the reasons for them leaving out of interest?

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

 

Mainly uncertainty and racism.

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Sounds like you could write a Harry Potter novel tbh.

There are now more EU nationals working in this country than ever before. 

Maybe your mum's home should pay a better wage? But then they don't have to, do they? Plenty of workers to choose from.

They pay the carers £12.00 hour day shift and £15.00 nights. No they don't have plenty to choose from.

So stop making assumptions about stuff you know Jack about.... Oh wait your a brexiteer.. That's you standard MO.

 

[eddie]

5 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well that's that sorted then. 

What are the reasons for them leaving out of interest?

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

 

The hatred shown towards them by scum.

[eddie]

Now that Jeremy Kyle hs been canned, what are Brexiteers going to watch?

[G STAR RAM]

4 hours ago, McRamFan said:

Mainly uncertainty and racism.

They pay the carers £12.00 hour day shift and £15.00 nights. No they don't have plenty to choose from.

So stop making assumptions about stuff you know Jack about.... Oh wait your a brexiteer.. That's you standard MO.

 

Mainly racism and uncertainty? Well come on there's only 9 of people so you can give reasons for all of them. 

Is England a racist country? Not from what I've seen. 

And how many have said 'I'm going home because of uncertainty'?

I'm sure you mean well but I'm calling bs on your story. 

Just like Farage everything you say is a lie.

[G STAR RAM]

47 minutes ago, eddie said:

Now that Jeremy Kyle hs been canned, what are Brexiteers going to watch?

Glad to see this post getting the amount of responses it deserves. 

[McRamFan]

7 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Mainly racism and uncertainty? Well come on there's only 9 of people so you can give reasons for all of them. 

Is England a racist country? Not from what I've seen. 

And how many have said 'I'm going home because of uncertainty'?

I'm sure you mean well but I'm calling bs on your story. 

Just like Farage everything you say is a lie.

Being as I have actually heard a visitor say that 'now we are leaving Europe, all these carers can go home and the jobs can be given back to English' and that was in front of the staff. 

Unfortunately, the job is hard work, long hours and can result in being attacked, at random, by the patients.  It is a high dependency dementia home and requires staff that are highly trained, something the 'locals' don't seem to want to do.

Call bs all you want, I just hope you don't find your parents in that situation. You need to open your eyes to what Farage is all about, he is no friend of the public.

[GboroRam]

Can I remind you all that there was a good amount of goodwill and friendliness at the beginning of this thread and we've tailed off into petty attacks. Stop, now, before the topic is pulled again. 

Prove we can talk respectfully to each other, or the privilege will be removed. 

[Stive Pesley]

Arguing about politics is surely a waste of our positive energy today ?

Que sera sera!!!