The Politics Thread 2019

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

So principled he chose to be part of the thing he despises? Don't tell me - working to bring down the system from within.

Well yes that is quite clearly what he has been trying to do.

Better than a Remainer leading Brexit. 

Or leader of the opposition who can't even make his own mind up on the situation. 

[jono]

@1of4.. the laugh emoji ?

Hitler wasn’t fond of Jews and bankers

Momentum ? .. oooo there’s a thing

Really .. fascism and communism are born of the same egg. Even Mussolini credited Marx with the root of his fascism.

i don’t dispute with global communication and industry that a rethink is needed particularly in terms trans national/offshore profit hiding but the populist oafs from Corbyn to Trump speak to the same base instincts. Find a hate figure, divert the mob, seize power, benefit from said power.

we have the mouthy left, the outraged right .. well I’m the gobby middle and I ain’t moving 

[1of4]

22 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

What are his lies? Not saying he doesn't lie just interested what you think he says that are lies?

That it would be easy and better for us to trade as an independent nation and it would be easy getting advantageous trade deals, that the rest of the world will be clamouring at our door, to give us great trade deals. Thats one of many lies. Numerous WTO experts, plus a former chairman of that organisation have stated any deal wouldn't be easy to do.

If I have to list all his lies, I'd be typing for hours.

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

That it would be easy and better for us to trade as an independent nation and it would be easy getting advantageous trade deals, that the rest of the world will be clamouring at our door, to give us great trade deals. Thats one of many lies. Numerous WTO experts, plus a former chairman of that organisation have stated any deal wouldn't be easy to do.

If I have to list all his lies, I'd be typing for hours.

Well still being in the EU we are currently unable to sign any trade deals so how can you prove this to be a lie?

How do you not know it is 'the experts' that are lying.

No need to spend ages typing, just summarise his main lies. 

[1of4]

13 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well still being in the EU we are currently unable to sign any trade deals so how can you prove this to be a lie?

How do you not know it is 'the experts' that are lying.

No need to spend ages typing, just summarise his main lies. 

If you're going to cast aspersions of the facts given by experts and call them liars. Theres no point in giving you any truthful information as you'll claim it as false facts, I wonder who else uses strategy when faced with the truth.

[G STAR RAM]

6 hours ago, 1of4 said:

If you're going to cast aspersions of the facts given by experts and call them liars. Theres no point in giving you any truthful information as you'll claim it as false facts, I wonder who else uses strategy when faced with the truth.

So every claim made by every 'expert' is true?

What about the claim of the emergency budget required if the country voted Brexit? I'm sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be considered an expert? And what about the 820,000 jobs that would be lost?

Experts make a lot of claims but I'm afraid youre blinkered if you don't realise that a lot of these experts have vested interests.

Anyway I will retract my statement about them being liars and assume that all of their claims are correct.

Can you now give me a brief summary of all of these lies that Farage has told please.

I'm no political expert and hearing these lies could genuinely persuade me not to vote for The Brexit Party.

 

[Stive Pesley]

11 hours ago, jono said:

I’m all for profit sharing. It’s called incentive a good business practice but how much do you want to share or should you share ?

you risk, you want reward, you need to re invest. Profit sharing could be seen as reinvesting, but who’s buying the new machine. In the end it’s balance logic and common sense but who decides the proportions

The business owner obviously. It's not just good business practice, but it's also better for the economy. Put more money in the pockets of the workers and they will spend it, boost consumer confidence and everyone benefits.

When profits get moved to offshore tax havens that only benefits the owners of the business and it's the root of so many problems.

Of course the fact that the EU has just introduced new legislation to help countries tackle this sort of practice is in no way related to the shadowy (and huge) donations being made to the Leave campaign....?

[jono]

53 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

The business owner obviously. It's not just good business practice, but it's also better for the economy. Put more money in the pockets of the workers and they will spend it, boost consumer confidence and everyone benefits.

When profits get moved to offshore tax havens that only benefits the owners of the business and it's the root of so many problems.

Of course the fact that the EU has just introduced new legislation to help countries tackle this sort of practice is in no way related to the shadowy (and huge) donations being made to the Leave campaign....?

I'm not arguing with you there Stiv. Profit sharing is both good and right. I also firmly believe in remain ( even though the EU is a bloated overpaid boys club and needs serious reform ) The only way we can counterbalance China the US and the developing world is to have influence in world trade. That is better done as a group than as a small village on our own. In any case, as Europeans we have a shared culture, they are our brothers and sisters. 

Of course the hard left isn't terribly fond of Europe because it prevents them from subsidising and nationalising certain industries.

The real issue about competitiveness, winning business and prosperity is about a level playing field. Our competitors in the east don't have anything like the social and environmental protections that we have.... that is the root cause. We should be focussing our ire more on the governments of other nations than issuing "lets get em" orders for some of our boated plutocrats. 

We have a system, it isn't competitive because we have infinitely higher social costs.  - In the main we are the good guys.  Our mixed economy is decent and fair but we play against economies that aren't. If the world was all working on a similar cost base to ours we wouldn't have anything like the social ills we have now because we'd have more business, more profit and more to spend.. 

It makes me laugh when elements on the left spout "Neocon" .. we aren't Neocon at all. We have a health service, we have pensions, we have consumer and environmental law. China ? Vietnam ? India ? 

[McRamFan]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Can you now give me a brief summary of all of these lies that Farage has told please. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/seb-dance/nigel-farage-seb-dance_b_14591852.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFlcFmFqm8sHHbvy_JHpjGCMp6PLCC-fsFnFn91bAeyNPnZzObwXaKxeTN8b7-ZmFw9NMex__7XlMJRRDnRHfhvMc5kR1SllMQdq-tFXhNmrwcJQBDK5WbEGyLW-_CmqGjS8c3RnufTDerVmOMHiZ-lTQVeOnGM6chIqUlSN8EG4

5 in the above article, old but he is still spouting them.

This one 7 days old.

https://www.indy100.com/article/nigel-farage-brexit-party-eu-elections-twitter-thread-8904601

2 days old

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/13/nigel-farage-brexit-party-event-terrifying-glimpse-future

If you support Farage, I truly feel sorry for you, because he doesn't give a dam about you, your future or your families future.

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

What about the claim of the emergency budget required if the country voted Brexit? I'm sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be considered an expert? And what about the 820,000 jobs that would be lost?

It was stated that there wold be one when we brexited, that hasn't happened yet.  However the NHS is so short staffed, due to Dr's, Nurses and support staff going 'home'.  Please explain how brexit has improved the NHS, and the quality of care the users are now receiving?

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm no political expert and hearing these lies could genuinely persuade me not to vote for The Brexit Party.

You would be voting for a party that has no manifesto, it is a single point party, brexit.  Then what?  So far it has stated to leave the EU and trade with it on WTO terms.  So if you like that single policy, and are happy that the price of goods and services will increase by at least 10%, the NHS will be close to collapse, as it will not have the staff to cope with the increasing load on mental health (from the young to the old) and the elderly population, who ironically, mostly voted leave.  Nevermind the additional costs to drugs and supply chain issues, especially for nuclear medicines.

Possibly your company may struggle, in terms of staff, raw materials, cost to market.  Hypothetically, as you voted leave, and your company had to make staff cuts, would you volunteer to be one?  After all you did vote to leave...(not expecting an answer, no brexiteer has ever answered it.

[FindernRam]

13 minutes ago, jono said:

That is better done as a group than as a small village on our own. In any case, as Europeans we have a shared culture, they are our brothers and sisters. 

England doesn't have a shared culture with Scotland, Wales, or even Cornwall so it sure doesn't have one with people on the mainland. 

[jono]

13 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

England doesn't have a shared culture with Scotland, Wales, or even Cornwall so it sure doesn't have one with people on the mainland. 

Of course it does. We been arguing together for centuries, There isn't much difference between a pie and pastie, So what if the Scots like square fat sausages, they are still a sausages. They love and hate us in equal measure. LLanfairpwlgwn was a Victorian creation. Lets face it … Billy Butlin made Minehead what it is today

[Norman]

Record numbers of EU nationals now in work.

Number surpasses the dip after the original Brexit vote.

And the trend is set to keep rising.

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, FindernRam said:

England doesn't have a shared culture with Scotland, Wales, or even Cornwall so it sure doesn't have one with people on the mainland. 

What?  Hardcore English Anglo-Saxons don't share any culture with the rest of Europe?    Not even with the Angles from Denmark?  Or the Saxons from Germany ?

I seem to remember some resolutely European Normans and Vikings having something of a role to play in English history too.  Oh, and the Romans. And where did the pre-Roman Celtic (or whatever) settlers come from?  I'm pretty sure it was the European mainland. 

[Stive Pesley]

18 minutes ago, Highgate said:

  I'm pretty sure it was the European mainland. 

If people want to be truly patriotic they should long for a return to the earliest British civilisation when we were actually PART of the European mainland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12244964

In fact patriots who DON'T recognise this goal are TRAITORS ?

 

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/seb-dance/nigel-farage-seb-dance_b_14591852.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFlcFmFqm8sHHbvy_JHpjGCMp6PLCC-fsFnFn91bAeyNPnZzObwXaKxeTN8b7-ZmFw9NMex__7XlMJRRDnRHfhvMc5kR1SllMQdq-tFXhNmrwcJQBDK5WbEGyLW-_CmqGjS8c3RnufTDerVmOMHiZ-lTQVeOnGM6chIqUlSN8EG4

5 in the above article, old but he is still spouting them.

This one 7 days old.

https://www.indy100.com/article/nigel-farage-brexit-party-eu-elections-twitter-thread-8904601

2 days old

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/13/nigel-farage-brexit-party-event-terrifying-glimpse-future

Not sure if you've read the articles, but if you have and honestly think they show Nigel Farage lies I'm amazed.

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

If you support Farage, I truly feel sorry for you, because he doesn't give a dam about you, your future or your families future.

I don't need you to feel sorry for me thanks. I see mine and my families future as my responsibility, not politicians.

It was stated that there wold be one when we brexited, that hasn't happened yet.

No it wasn't,  I would check your facts on this one.

However the NHS is so short staffed, due to Dr's, Nurses and support staff going 'home'.  Please explain how brexit has improved the NHS, and the quality of care the users are now receiving?

Brexit hasn't happened. NHS was on its knees way before Brexit, using it to explain the state of the NHS is disingenuous. I've managed to find a site which says the number of EU nationals employed is pretty much unchanged since the referendum.

You would be voting for a party that has no manifesto, it is a single point party, brexit.  Then what? 

I would be voting for them in European elections. They want to deliver Brexit. Why do they need a manifesto for that? Obviously without any manifesto I would not vote for them in local or general elections. 

So far it has stated to leave the EU and trade with it on WTO terms.  So if you like that single policy, and are happy that the price of goods and services will increase by at least 10%,

Source please

the NHS will be close to collapse,

Source please 

as it will not have the staff to cope with the increasing load on mental health (from the young to the old) and the elderly population, who ironically, mostly voted leave.  Nevermind the additional costs to drugs and supply chain issues, especially for nuclear medicines.

Possibly your company may struggle, in terms of staff, raw materials, cost to market.  Hypothetically, as you voted leave, and your company had to make staff cuts, would you volunteer to be one?  After all you did vote to leave...(not expecting an answer, no brexiteer has ever answered it.

I've been made redundant before and that was when we were in the EU, can I blame being part of the EU for that? 

 

[maxjam]

31 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

If people want to be truly patriotic they should long for a return to the earliest British civilisation when we were actually PART of the European mainland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12244964

In fact patriots who DON'T recognise this goal are TRAITORS ?

 

Pffft modernist.  Pangea ftw!

[Highgate]

49 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Pffft modernist.  Pangea ftw!

Pangaean newbie !   That's only the most recent of the supercontinents.  Any genuine patriotic traditionalist will yearn for a return to an authentically Rodinian culture that our presumably still aquatic distant pre-Cambrian ancestors enjoyed.

[McRamFan]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

So far it has stated to leave the EU and trade with it on WTO terms.  So if you like that single policy, and are happy that the price of goods and services will increase by at least 10%,

Source please

the NHS will be close to collapse,

Source please 

There is plenty of research out there by independents.  The question needing to be asked is why the gov, ie Matt Handcock has gagged NHS reports into brexit impact.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Brexit-and-the-NHS-.pdf

https://www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/medical-school-interview/nhs-hot-topics-2018-19/nhs-brexit-effect-of-brexit-on-nhs/

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

No it wasn't,  I would check your facts on this one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

Read the whole article, particularly...

Mr Osborne told Radio 4's Today that leaving the EU would be an "irreversible" step that would cause "financial instability" and leave the UK "with no economic plan", demanding an immediate response from government.

"There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Why do they need a manifesto for that?

So you happily follow a man with no plan, except leave the EU.  What happens after we leave? Where is the plan, where is the next steps?

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

There is plenty of research out there by independents.  The question needing to be asked is why the gov, ie Matt Handcock has gagged NHS reports into brexit impact.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Brexit-and-the-NHS-.pdf

https://www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/medical-school-interview/nhs-hot-topics-2018-19/nhs-brexit-effect-of-brexit-on-nhs/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

How do you know who is independent and who isn't? 

Read the whole article, particularly...

Mr Osborne told Radio 4's Today that leaving the EU would be an "irreversible" step that would cause "financial instability" and leave the UK "with no economic plan", demanding an immediate response from government.

"There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.

This emergency budget was supposed to take place if we voted to leave the EU, not once Brexit had taken place. I'm still waiting for it.

So you happily follow a man with no plan, except leave the EU.  What happens after we leave? Where is the plan, where is the next steps?

Why would he need a plan, he's not in government. What happens after we leave us down to the government, they have had nearly 3 years to prepare and if they had done that instead of trying to overturn the result we would be in a much better position.

 

[MaltRam]

On 14/05/2019 at 09:26, StivePesley said:

Who was it who said "if you meet someone in power, ask them 5 things. What power do you have? How did you get that power? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how do we get rid of you?"

That still sounds like a pretty strong framework to adhere to if you ask me.

I'm more bothered about that than falling for the media hysteria about how "Corbyn will definitely bankrupt the country"

Tony Benn.

Also, Corbyn would definately bankrupt the country...but he won't get in. Probably.