Paul Warne

[Ambitious]

7 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

The financial figures released for 22/23 showed we had a high wage budget compared to the rest of the league, maybe not the highest but very much up there. £7.3m on first team wages according to this, not sure how that compares to other sides but it's probably pretty high for league one and we’ve recruited further for 23/24;

I’ve preached patience with Warne for 2 years, and yes the club has been working with restrictions for sure, but let’s not pretend we’ve not had some money to spend. How that money has been spent should be the focus of the debate for me, with consideration of those restrictions as part of the debate.
Our agents fees were the highest in the league as a result of both the restrictions we faced (big focus on free agents) and the resources available, we could afford to spend the most;

Just presenting the info I can find, I don’t see why people use it as a stick to beat Warne with as there are plenty of examples throughout football where having the biggest budget doesn’t always equal success (Chelsea lately anyone?), it still needs a capable manager to shape a squad and get it performing which Warne has done, perhaps more pragmatically than some would like. 

 

I don't think anyone can dispute that we had the highest wage budget in the league. I know the club were coy in putting 'first-team wages' in the public domain but ultimately we spent more on wages last season (22/23) than Sunderland did in their promotion campaign (21/22) and they also had a category one academy. 

Sunderland spent £16.1m total across 572 employees - 252 full-time staff & 320 matchday staff during the 21/22 season. 

We spent £17.2m total across 177 employees - 59 playing staff & 118 non-playing. 

When the accounts are released for this season, considering promotion bonuses will be included & the increase in the first-team squad, I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass £20m - which would be higher than probably roughly 10(?) Championship clubs. 

[maxjam]

6 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

 

I don't think anyone can dispute that we had the highest wage budget in the league. I know the club were coy in putting 'first-team wages' in the public domain but ultimately we spent more on wages last season (22/23) than Sunderland did in their promotion campaign (21/22) and they also had a category one academy. 

Sunderland spent £16.1m total across 572 employees - 252 full-time staff & 320 matchday staff during the 21/22 season. 

We spent £17.2m total across 177 employees - 59 playing staff & 118 non-playing. 

When the accounts are released for this season, considering promotion bonuses will be included & the increase in the first-team squad, I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass £20m - which would be higher than probably roughly 10(?) Championship clubs. 

I just put the following in the new investment thread, its probably worth posting again here as its relevant to the above;

This Rams Daily podcast was really interesting, especially the 2nd half in which they discussed finances;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hv0gmg

To summarise this season Derby had a wage bill of around £17m.  The Championship average wage will is around £30m - so £13m more than we're currently paying.  Next season our income will increase by approx £7-8m compared to what we have been getting in Lg1.  So already thats a shortfall of £5m not including include any transfer fees etc.

Given that a wage budget is typically a good indicator of league position and Derby under DC will be run sustainably, any outside investment is going to be crucial if we hope to cement our position in the Championship nevermind push on towards the play-off positions.

We've got a lot of work to do this summer, with little room for error.

*Furthermore and IIRC, they also said the average Championship club is losing £400k per week.  Whilst we were a big fish in a small pond this season, financially unless we find some money down the back of the sofa we're gonna be up against it next season.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I just put the following in the new investment thread, its probably worth posting again here as its relevant to the above;

This Rams Daily podcast was really interesting, especially the 2nd half in which they discussed finances;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hv0gmg

To summarise this season Derby had a wage bill of around £17m.  The Championship average wage will is around £30m - so £13m more than we're currently paying.  Next season our income will increase by approx £7-8m compared to what we have been getting in Lg1.  So already thats a shortfall of £5m not including include any transfer fees etc.

Given that a wage budget is typically a good indicator of league position and Derby under DC will be run sustainably, any outside investment is going to be crucial if we hope to cement our position in the Championship nevermind push on towards the play-off positions.

We've got a lot of work to do this summer, with little room for error.

*Furthermore and IIRC, they also said the average Championship club is losing £400k per week.  Whilst we were a big fish in a small pond this season, financially unless we find some money down the back of the sofa we're gonna be up against it next season.

7-8 million seems a little short with TV, Sponsorship, more money substantially just for being in the league and greatly increased away followings with additional on the day spending that goes with it.  I'll have a listen

[Comrade 86]

8 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

7-8 million seems a little short with TV, Sponsorship, more money substantially just for being in the league and greatly increased away followings with additional on the day spending that goes with it.  I'll have a listen

Won't there be around £15 million extra in season ticket sales too, with the average ticket having gone up around £70? You'd think they'd likely shift a few more this season than last too.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Won't there be around £15 million extra in season ticket sales too, with the average ticket having gone up around £70? You'd think they'd likely shift a few more this season than last too.

You may have missed a dot there mate but I'm sure David Clowes won't complain. 😂.  Yes about 1.5 million to put in the pot.

[Archied]

43 minutes ago, sage said:

I didn't say I know more than others I was responding to a barb that 'need to understand what bullying is'.

Again I'm amused me mentioning that some posters felt bullied into not stating theur views has led to 20 posts directed at me personally with several barbs. Now I don't feel bullied but I do find it more than a little ironic. 

That's me done. 

You implied bullying, you’ve been pulled up on it and can’t back it up so now your done 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

You may have missed a dot there mate but I'm sure David Clowes won't complain. 😂.  Yes about 1.5 million to put in the pot.

Doh! Yeah, I did! I'm sure DC would love an extra £15 mill in his rocket! 😵‍💫

[Ghost of Clough]

29 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

 

I don't think anyone can dispute that we had the highest wage budget in the league. I know the club were coy in putting 'first-team wages' in the public domain but ultimately we spent more on wages last season (22/23) than Sunderland did in their promotion campaign (21/22) and they also had a category one academy. 

Sunderland spent £16.1m total across 572 employees - 252 full-time staff & 320 matchday staff during the 21/22 season. 

We spent £17.2m total across 177 employees - 59 playing staff & 118 non-playing. 

When the accounts are released for this season, considering promotion bonuses will be included & the increase in the first-team squad, I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass £20m - which would be higher than probably roughly 10(?) Championship clubs. 

The accounts didn't even state 'first team wages'. It stated 42% SCMP from a £20.442m turnover, which equates to £8.6m (Dom made an error by stating £7 3m). As I pointed out previously, this figure would have excluded wages for the likes of Cashin, Bird, Knight, Sibley, Thompson and Rooney. As you can imagine, the true first team wage bill would have been a fair way higher than £8.6m. Bielik's wages (the share Birmingham agreed to pay us) would have also been excluded from this figure.

[Ambitious]

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I just put the following in the new investment thread, its probably worth posting again here as its relevant to the above;

This Rams Daily podcast was really interesting, especially the 2nd half in which they discussed finances;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hv0gmg

To summarise this season Derby had a wage bill of around £17m.  The Championship average wage will is around £30m - so £13m more than we're currently paying.  Next season our income will increase by approx £7-8m compared to what we have been getting in Lg1.  So already thats a shortfall of £5m not including include any transfer fees etc.

Given that a wage budget is typically a good indicator of league position and Derby under DC will be run sustainably, any outside investment is going to be crucial if we hope to cement our position in the Championship nevermind push on towards the play-off positions.

We've got a lot of work to do this summer, with little room for error.

*Furthermore and IIRC, they also said the average Championship club is losing £400k per week.  Whilst we were a big fish in a small pond this season, financially unless we find some money down the back of the sofa we're gonna be up against it next season.

The average wage bill in the Championship being £30m seems high to me, certainly post-COVID. The parachute payment sides doing their best to prop that up, maybe, but last accounts for some of the non-parachute sides: 

Stoke - £31.1m turnover - £28.2m wage bill (268 staff)
Middlesbrough - £28.5m turnover - £29.6m wage bill (228 staff) 
Cardiff City - £26.2m turnover - £22m wage bill (206 staff)
QPR - £23.2m turnover - £25.4m wage bill (189 staff)
Coventry - £20.3 turnover - £18.4m wage bill (196 staff)
Birmingham - £19.7m turnover - £28.9m wage bill (237 staff)
Swansea - £19.6m turnover - £26m wage bill (510 staff)
Millwall - £19.3m turnover - £22.5m wage bill (156 staff)
Bristol City - £18.5m turnover - £26.3m wage bill (205 staff) 
Huddersfield - £18.1m turnover - £21m wage bill (234 staff)
Hull City - £18m turnover - £23.6m wage bill (225 staff)
Rotherham - £15.6m turnover - £9m wage bill (166 staff)
Preston - £15.5m turnover - £21.5m wage bill (134 staff)

We turned over more than 8 of those teams I searched for whilst in League One - turnover £20.4m & wage bill £17.2m (177 staff). The Championship TV money is going to push us on an equal footing as MIddlesbrough - give or take a little. Stoke over-inflate their accounts with an annual £10m+ sponsorship deal with B365 which is why they have the highest revenue of all the non-parachute sides. 

[Simmo’s left foot]

A few points, turnover will be up this season, given the big attendances in the latter half of the season. Quite possibly half a million or so more.

Also, pre COVID we hit £31 million turnover in the championship if I recall, with the revised TV deal that should be higher next season.

[Archied]

53 minutes ago, sage said:

I didn't say over sensitive. That's your interpretation.

It's a fact that some people would consider a hypothetical scenario bullying when another person may not.

That doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't bullying. It's a grey area and can't just be written off.

 

More sensitive than others 🤷🏻‍♂️,

and because somebody feels bullied doesn’t necessarily mean it is , you’ve made it clear you feel people have been bullied on this forum or at best those people saying they feel bullied should stop posters getting into any disagreement with them over they’re often stated passion views , after all I’m guessing there’s been quite a few back and forth exchanges before this bullying accusation has been floated ,

fact is , let’s see it , show us who has been bullied ,how and when , you can’t just be throwing out this stuff Willy nilly then saying I’m out , if there are people genuinely bullying others on here let’s confront it and them and put a stop to it , i m right behind you on that ,

over to you , are you genuine or is it use of a silly outdated tactic to shut down others ?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

The average wage bill in the Championship being £30m seems high to me, certainly post-COVID. The parachute payment sides doing their best to prop that up, maybe, but last accounts for some of the non-parachute sides: 

Stoke - £31.1m turnover - £28.2m wage bill (268 staff)
Middlesbrough - £28.5m turnover - £29.6m wage bill (228 staff) 
Cardiff City - £26.2m turnover - £22m wage bill (206 staff)
QPR - £23.2m turnover - £25.4m wage bill (189 staff)
Coventry - £20.3 turnover - £18.4m wage bill (196 staff)
Birmingham - £19.7m turnover - £28.9m wage bill (237 staff)
Swansea - £19.6m turnover - £26m wage bill (510 staff)
Millwall - £19.3m turnover - £22.5m wage bill (156 staff)
Bristol City - £18.5m turnover - £26.3m wage bill (205 staff) 
Huddersfield - £18.1m turnover - £21m wage bill (234 staff)
Hull City - £18m turnover - £23.6m wage bill (225 staff)
Rotherham - £15.6m turnover - £9m wage bill (166 staff)
Preston - £15.5m turnover - £21.5m wage bill (134 staff)

We turned over more than 8 of those teams I searched for whilst in League One - turnover £20.4m & wage bill £17.2m (177 staff). The Championship TV money is going to push us on an equal footing as MIddlesbrough - give or take a little. Stoke over-inflate their accounts with an annual £10m+ sponsorship deal with B365 which is why they have the highest revenue of all the non-parachute sides. 

These are basically the championship chuggers we'll need to match and be taking points off next season to stay healthy.  11th to 17th in any order you choose for about 8 years.   Forget about the undoubted 3-0 nil defeats to the parachute teams or those with a knock on the playoff door squad that's been more carefully constructed over 3 years who'll occupy top to 10th.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

12 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

The average wage bill in the Championship being £30m seems high to me, certainly post-COVID. The parachute payment sides doing their best to prop that up, maybe, but last accounts for some of the non-parachute sides: 

Stoke - £31.1m turnover - £28.2m wage bill (268 staff)
Middlesbrough - £28.5m turnover - £29.6m wage bill (228 staff) 
Cardiff City - £26.2m turnover - £22m wage bill (206 staff)
QPR - £23.2m turnover - £25.4m wage bill (189 staff)
Coventry - £20.3 turnover - £18.4m wage bill (196 staff)
Birmingham - £19.7m turnover - £28.9m wage bill (237 staff)
Swansea - £19.6m turnover - £26m wage bill (510 staff)
Millwall - £19.3m turnover - £22.5m wage bill (156 staff)
Bristol City - £18.5m turnover - £26.3m wage bill (205 staff) 
Huddersfield - £18.1m turnover - £21m wage bill (234 staff)
Hull City - £18m turnover - £23.6m wage bill (225 staff)
Rotherham - £15.6m turnover - £9m wage bill (166 staff)
Preston - £15.5m turnover - £21.5m wage bill (134 staff)

We turned over more than 8 of those teams I searched for whilst in League One - turnover £20.4m & wage bill £17.2m (177 staff). The Championship TV money is going to push us on an equal footing as MIddlesbrough - give or take a little. Stoke over-inflate their accounts with an annual £10m+ sponsorship deal with B365 which is why they have the highest revenue of all the non-parachute sides. 

You mean the company owned by Coates daughter.  Very FFP compliant.  Sold the ground to her for some ridiculous sum of about 180 million as well. 

[maxjam]

46 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

7-8 million seems a little short with TV, Sponsorship, more money substantially just for being in the league and greatly increased away followings with additional on the day spending that goes with it.  I'll have a listen

 

35 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Won't there be around £15 million extra in season ticket sales too, with the average ticket having gone up around £70? You'd think they'd likely shift a few more this season than last too.

 

11 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

The average wage bill in the Championship being £30m seems high to me, certainly post-COVID. The parachute payment sides doing their best to prop that up, maybe, but last accounts for some of the non-parachute sides: 

Stoke - £31.1m turnover - £28.2m wage bill (268 staff)
Middlesbrough - £28.5m turnover - £29.6m wage bill (228 staff) 
Cardiff City - £26.2m turnover - £22m wage bill (206 staff)
QPR - £23.2m turnover - £25.4m wage bill (189 staff)
Coventry - £20.3 turnover - £18.4m wage bill (196 staff)
Birmingham - £19.7m turnover - £28.9m wage bill (237 staff)
Swansea - £19.6m turnover - £26m wage bill (510 staff)
Millwall - £19.3m turnover - £22.5m wage bill (156 staff)
Bristol City - £18.5m turnover - £26.3m wage bill (205 staff) 
Huddersfield - £18.1m turnover - £21m wage bill (234 staff)
Hull City - £18m turnover - £23.6m wage bill (225 staff)
Rotherham - £15.6m turnover - £9m wage bill (166 staff)
Preston - £15.5m turnover - £21.5m wage bill (134 staff)

We turned over more than 8 of those teams I searched for whilst in League One - turnover £20.4m & wage bill £17.2m (177 staff). The Championship TV money is going to push us on an equal footing as MIddlesbrough - give or take a little. Stoke over-inflate their accounts with an annual £10m+ sponsorship deal with B365 which is why they have the highest revenue of all the non-parachute sides. 

Just paraphrasing what they talked about in the podcast, it was Darren Robinson and Kieran Maguire throwing the numbers around - and they already accounted for 22k season tickets.  Interesting listen.

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

7-8 million seems a little short with TV, Sponsorship, more money substantially just for being in the league and greatly increased away followings with additional on the day spending that goes with it.  I'll have a listen

I think the £7-8 million they mentioned on radio Derby and quoted by @maxjam was just the additional money from the tv deal, there was then further speculative points made about some of the points you listed above in helping increase revenue more.

It’s an interesting listen, if you can put up with Maguire. 

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 hour ago, Ambitious said:

 

I don't think anyone can dispute that we had the highest wage budget in the league. I know the club were coy in putting 'first-team wages' in the public domain but ultimately we spent more on wages last season (22/23) than Sunderland did in their promotion campaign (21/22) and they also had a category one academy. 

Sunderland spent £16.1m total across 572 employees - 252 full-time staff & 320 matchday staff during the 21/22 season. 

We spent £17.2m total across 177 employees - 59 playing staff & 118 non-playing. 

When the accounts are released for this season, considering promotion bonuses will be included & the increase in the first-team squad, I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass £20m - which would be higher than probably roughly 10(?) Championship clubs. 

Just to be clear I wasn’t disputing our wage budget, the poster I replied to asked about evidence of our financial might so I shared a couple of bits of info to answer that query. 
I do dispute the use of that budget as a stick to beat Warne with, but I don’t wish to get into that. 

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Just to be clear I wasn’t disputing our wage budget, the poster I replied to asked about evidence of our financial might so I shared a couple of bits of info to answer that query. 
I do dispute the use of that budget as a stick to beat Warne with, but I don’t wish to get into that. 

The comparative size of our budget might be an interesting point that will come up in future years (if not sooner ;)). Mel is pilloried for splashing cash around, but isn't that what Clowes did on a lesser level, he gambled on a 'promotion expert' and it just paid off. 

And all of you waiting to jump in and have a go don't bother btw. That's my opinion and if you have different one good for you, state it as your own and leave me out of it! 

[ramsbottom]

10 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

7-8 million seems a little short with TV, Sponsorship, more money substantially just for being in the league and greatly increased away followings with additional on the day spending that goes with it.  I'll have a listen

The £7-8m quoted is purely from the new TV deal passed down from the Prem.  There will be an increase in revenue from sponsorship, and season ticket sales to add on, probably another £2-3m.  A drop in the ocean compared to the relegated teams and those like Dog Fingerer FC who have to prop up their massive losses through their mard arse chairman...

[DRBee]

14 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

The comparative size of our budget might be an interesting point that will come up in future years (if not sooner ;)). Mel is pilloried for splashing cash around, but isn't that what Clowes did on a lesser level, he gambled on a 'promotion expert' and it just paid off. 

And all of you waiting to jump in and have a go don't bother btw. That's my opinion and if you have different one good for you, state it as your own and leave me out of it! 

I think to talk of splashing the cash is not really a valid claim. As part of the club's new business plan and risk management it could be argued that costs of spending on an experienced manager were part of a valid response to the risks and financial costs of being stuck in League ! for many seasons. As I recall at the time the plan was that we might be in League for 3 seasons before we were able to gain promotion back to the Championship.  Linking David Clowes behaviour as owner to that of Mel Morris, just won't do. Morris was a maverick who once he was owner did what he wanted without having sufficient people round him to advise him. The Clowes operation seems to be very different to me. What you term as Clowes's gamble  paying off might be viewed by others as careful planning delivering results.

[CBX1985]

1 minute ago, DRBee said:

I think to talk of splashing the cash is not really a valid claim. As part of the club's new business plan and risk management it could be argued that costs of spending on an experienced manager were part of a valid response to the risks and financial costs of being stuck in League ! for many seasons. As I recall at the time the plan was that we might be in League for 3 seasons before we were able to gain promotion back to the Championship.  Linking David Clowes behaviour as owner to that of Mel Morris, just won't do. Morris was a maverick who once he was owner did what he wanted without having sufficient people round him to advise him. The Clowes operation seems to be very different to me. What you term as Clowes's gamble  paying off might be viewed by others as careful planning delivering results.

Indeed.

I would go further and say, for instance, I would be prepared to play for Derby in any position for free.  The club instead pays players in excess of £250,000 pa to do that role.  You could make the point that is a "gamble" on more established players.

I would be useless and we would be thrashed each week and relegated, but there would be a massive one off saving.

The gamble was paying very high wages to inexperienced managers (who are famous) and who, should you lose a few, would be sacked with compensation to boot.  And paying extremely high wages (and even higher fees) to fringe Premier League players to entice them to take a step backwards.

Paying a "promotion specialist" to increase revenue without taking debt to do so is very good business sense.