No midfield control again…

[On the Ram Page]

8 hours ago, valakari said:

Bird, like Hourihane struggle to play in a Warne set up. They are both quite creative and technical, yet he asks them to get rid after 2 touches.

Also neither is defensively minded so there is always a gaping hole straight down the middle..which need a cdm player in the mould of a Bielik or Shinnie type!..

Either Warne goes, Bird & Hourihane go or Warne changes his style to fit our players!

How does he change his style? We just do not currently have the players to have a combatative midfield, as Fornah apart (and he appears to have lost confidence) none of our players could force their way out of a paper bag - Bird , Hourihane, Thompson, Smith Barkhaizen, Mendez-Llangollen, Sibley etc are all weak in the tackle and in the air. So unless we play 4/5 in midfield and try to crowd the opposition with sheer numbers (as many teams try to do to us) we are never going to dominate the opposition.

I think we currently rely on trying to score more goals than the opposition, this has worked quite well so far, but with Nyambe  out and Forsyth injured, with Cashin also having a couple of ropey games, we don’t look as secure. Goals have also dried up. 
I don’t think we can afford to get anyone in yet, so I think we need to hold our nerve and hope it works out. The players more than ever need our support, not to get on their backs.

I

[DavesaRam]

7 hours ago, S8TY said:

But some want him out of the team and prefer Bird ....we lack goals from midfield as it is and Max doesn't score and never looks like scoring , yes that sounds sensible replace goals and assists with ?????

The only reason I'd select Bird is if we signed a proper CM who can dictate the game and put a foot and head in where it hurts in a 3 man midfield  then young Max might learn and flourish otherwise he tends to look like  a passenger at times even though he does also show some neat touches 

I'd like our midfield to run through brick walls and they don't and to be honest don't think Hourihane has that in him now but Max does so lets see it ...who is the ball winner in midfield?? we might not play enough through the midfield because of Warne i get that but we still need tacklers and strong players in there when we lose the ball or the other team break  because the middle of the pitch is important and we don't have any steel in there we definitely need a strong winner in the centre of the park...100%

You’ve described the midfield issues well, but the problem is that Warne is happy with the deficiencies! He doesn’t mind the whole opposition team charging through our midfield, so long as the next time we get the ball we hoof it out to the wings. His other plan is to not care much about midfield so long as we get the ball out to the wings. 🙄

[YorkshireRam]

8 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

You’ve described the midfield issues well, but the problem is that Warne is happy with the deficiencies! He doesn’t mind the whole opposition team charging through our midfield, so long as the next time we get the ball we hoof it out to the wings. His other plan is to not care much about midfield so long as we get the ball out to the wings. 🙄

Has he actually said this? I saw the ''2 touch'' quote but didn't see anything about this?

[Crewton]

It's quite confusing when you see people calling for us to play one-touch football and then the same people complaining about Warne asking players to take no more than two touches.......

[YorkshireRam]

3 minutes ago, Crewton said:

It's quite confusing when you see people calling for us to play one-touch football and then the same people complaining about Warne asking players to take no more than two touches.......

...and implying technical footballers are limited by fewer touches. The most technical players only need a maximum of 2: 1 to control, 1 to pass. The added irony being Bird especially has been dribbling far more this season, and probably having more touches per passage of play than he ever has thanks to his more advanced role as an #8. So it's confused me a bit too- the problem with Bird and Hourihane is physicality, not the amount of touches they need.

[May Contain Nuts]

38 minutes ago, Crewton said:

It's quite confusing when you see people calling for us to play one-touch football and then the same people complaining about Warne asking players to take no more than two touches.......

Quick, one touch football is great when you're a well structured team with good movement and well-rehearsed passing routes, when everyone knows where one another is going to be, when players are closer together and the passses are generally a bit safer.

We're not that team though, are we? We often still look like strangers, there's little cohesion to our attacking play, often our players are too spread around, too far apart because as soon as we get the ball they're urged to haul ass up the field to support an attack, we have fewer options for each pass and they're riskier as a result.

Sometimes we need someone to put their foot on the ball, calm it down, wait for their teammates to get back into position but we don't have / don't do that.

Edited January 26 by May Contain Nuts

[On the Ram Page]

34 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

...and implying technical footballers are limited by fewer touches. The most technical players only need a maximum of 2: 1 to control, 1 to pass. The added irony being Bird especially has been dribbling far more this season, and probably having more touches per passage of play than he ever has thanks to his more advanced role as an #8. So it's confused me a bit too- the problem with Bird and Hourihane is physicality, not the amount of touches they need.

100% (+ pace)

[Ambitious]

I think people focus far too much on emotive and physical attributes as to why we don’t control the midfield. 

I don’t think it’s anything to do with the physical aspect of the players, more so their ability to stay within the game from a mental aspect.

Jeff Hendrick was/is a great example of a player who had physically and technical ability to dominate a game in midfield but lacked the ability to read the game so much that for 80% of every single game he played that you knew it was going to pass him by, unfortunately I think Bird whilst weaker and perhaps better technically, is similar that games bypass him purely because he doesn’t have the ability to read the game very well and be where he needs to be. 

Add that to a manager who plays a style, where he puts no emphasis on control and only catching the opposition out of position with a fast, direct approach. 

Bird and Hourihane play the game picking up pockets of space between the lines but are as useful as a chocolate teapot when we lose the ball and the other team has the opportunity to counter. Hourihane has technical quality and an edge that means he’s more useful to us than Bird, who I think really needs to be sacrificed for the greater good. By that I mean sold and replaced with a more suitable player this team. We really could do with a player who just knows how to stay in games, especially in centre mid, one that can be a presence. Thompson is a good example, but we need that but with much greater ability IMO. 

 

[Anag Ram]

20 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Quick, one touch football is great when you're a well structured team with good movement and well-rehearsed passing routes, when everyone knows where one another is going to be, when players are closer together and the passses are generally a bit safer.

We're not that team though, are we? We often still look like strangers, there's little cohesion to our attacking play, often our players are too spread around, too far apart because as soon as we get the ball they're urged to haul ass up the field to support an attack, we have fewer options for each pass and they're riskier as a result.

Sometimes we need someone to put their foot on the ball, calm it down, wait for their teammates to get back into position but we don't have / don't do that.

Yes, I often feel sorry for the man in possession as he looks at his options. Often a set of static players standing next to their markers. No surprise then that the option is to pass sideways or backwards, especially if you’re being harried by your opposite number.

As a team we need to be a bit busier and hungrier for the ball.

We’re great when given space, and giving your team mate a quick ‘out’ ball is the way to create space.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

Has he actually said this? I saw the ''2 touch'' quote but didn't see anything about this?

This was pre-FGR at home last season. It set alarm bells off for me at the time and it's just stuck with me ever since, and I'm reminded of it whenever I watch an opposition stroll through us, or we leave a player exposed as the last line of defence.

"I understand that the way we play sometimes we're vulnerable on the counter attack, but that's the way I want to play. I want to play and watch a team that attacks, are relentless, and tries to create enough chances to score. My one criticisim is that I don't think in the final third we've been as concise as we should be"

While it's not explicitly "I'm not bothered" or "I don't care" it is, I believe (and evidence of how we play would back this up) pretty much tantamount to that.

 

Edited January 26 by May Contain Nuts

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Of Bird's 35 passes agaisnt Reading, 20 (57%) went forwards, 8 (23%) went sideways or didn't go far enough forward for it to be worthwhile callign forwards, with just 7 (20%) going backwards.
Hourihane's pasing figures will be similar, if not slightly better due to playing slightly deeper and taking free-kicks.

43% of passes going backwards or sidewards then. Obviously my previous post was tongue in cheek, didn’t expect it to be this bad though.

[Jubbs]

On Tuesday, the positioning of Hourihane and Bird was the issue. They're occupying the same space. 

[On the Ram Page]

15 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I think people focus far too much on emotive and physical attributes as to why we don’t control the midfield. 

I don’t think it’s anything to do with the physical aspect of the players, more so their ability to stay within the game from a mental aspect.

Jeff Hendrick was/is a great example of a player who had physically and technical ability to dominate a game in midfield but lacked the ability to read the game so much that for 80% of every single game he played that you knew it was going to pass him by, unfortunately I think Bird whilst weaker and perhaps better technically, is similar that games bypass him purely because he doesn’t have the ability to read the game very well and be where he needs to be. 

Add that to a manager who plays a style, where he puts no emphasis on control and only catching the opposition out of position with a fast, direct approach. 

Bird and Hourihane play the game picking up pockets of space between the lines but are as useful as a chocolate teapot when we lose the ball and the other team has the opportunity to counter. Hourihane has technical quality and an edge that means he’s more useful to us than Bird, who I think really needs to be sacrificed for the greater good. By that I mean sold and replaced with a more suitable player this team. We really could do with a player who just knows how to stay in games, especially in centre mid, one that can be a presence. Thompson is a good example, but we need that but with much greater ability IMO. 

 

Sorry but I don't agree with you. I think Bird reads the game very well but isn't strong enough in the tackle, is poor in the air and just isn't aggressive enough. Thompson runs around a lot, gives lots of energy but rarely achieves anything concrete. Hourihane can tackle but is usually off the pace , hence he is often late bringing a yellow card.

Paul Warne constantly talks about having control of the game in his post match interviews, so I don't think you are right when you say "he puts no emphasis on control". Whether we get control is another matter.

Other teams must has sussed by now that we are weak in midfield but I do not think there is much we can do about it at present with the players we have. Cant wait for Nyambye to return so we are more watertight at the back and we can get more on the front foot with Wilson further forward. Hopefully we can pull a last minute rabbit out of the hat with a goal scoring forward.

[Crewton]

20 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

43% of passes going backwards or sidewards then. Obviously my previous post was tongue in cheek, didn’t expect it to be this bad though.

It depends where those passes occur though. Overall, it doesn't sound bad for a central midfielder in a team that usually spends more time in the opposition half than their own?

[On the Ram Page]

6 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

On Tuesday, the positioning of Hourihane and Bird was the issue. They're occupying the same space. 

No wonder we struggled, looks as though we only have 10 men on the pitch. Is this diagram for the whole match? It doesn't make much sense!

[Jubbs]

4 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

Is this diagram for the whole match? It doesn't make much sense!

It's because NML and Collins are virtually on top of each other!

I imagine this is due to NML moving centrally after the subs.

[YorkshireRam]

27 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

This was pre-FGR at home last season. It set alarm bells off for me at the time and it's just stuck with me ever since, and I'm reminded of it whenever I watch an opposition stroll through us, or we leave a player exposed as the last line of defence.

"I understand that the way we play sometimes we're vulnerable on the counter attack, but that's the way I want to play. I want to play and watch a team that attacks, are relentless, and tries to create enough chances to score. My one criticisim is that I don't think in the final third we've been as concise as we should be"

While it's not explicitly "I'm not bothered" or "I don't care" it is, I believe (and evidence of how we play would back this up) pretty much tantamount to that.

 

I'm not sure I agree, any direct team utilising fast build play play is susceptible to counter attacks. Warne being aware of the drawbacks of the tactical system he uses isn't the same as being okay with being overrun in midfield. I think he's commenting on simply being aware that the system isn't infallible. The way to not be vulnerable to counter attacks is to sit deep- i'd much rather play the way we do than park the bus.

When Warne signed Barlaser at Rotherham he made a huge difference to their midfield as he was the technicality in a team of runners. I think we're the flip reverse right now, where we've got bags of technical ability, but not the mobile battler who offers more off the ball than he necessarily does on it. Bird and Hourihane aren't incredibly useful off the ball, a Shinnie-esque grafter would help massively in not getting overrun I suspect. 

[Ghost of Clough]

19 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

43% of passes going backwards or sidewards then. Obviously my previous post was tongue in cheek, didn’t expect it to be this bad though.

Xavi would typically make 80% sideways or backwards passes - and that's not tongue in cheek. 50% of Carrick's would go sideways or backwards

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

It depends where those passes occur though. Overall, it doesn't sound bad for a central midfielder in a team that usually spends more time in the opposition half than their own?

Not sure if its backed up by stats, but to my mind one of the major problems with Bird is that we don't get him on the ball in advanced positions. 

[Chris_Martin]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

It's quite confusing when you see people calling for us to play one-touch football and then the same people complaining about Warne asking players to take no more than two touches.......

there's a difference between most peoples one/two touch football, and warne's one/two touch football (control it, hoof it)