No midfield control again…

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Ambivalent really. The players were well off their individual games, incredibly sloppy in possession, and lacked concentration at times. I agreed with the substitutions when they were made, and a shame we couldn't wrestle something back from the game, although not sure our performance merited anything. 

We need to address the midfield balance, but the double pivot has worked at times this season so it's not an outlandish mistake Warne made fielding the team he did. I think the players have to take the brunt of the blame for the complete lethargy we witnessed last night. 

Why did you agree? Why did we need more 'wide' players? Why did our only striker on the pitch (TJJ) end up playing out wide too a lot of the time? Why did we bypass midfield in 'two passes'?

[Jram]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

Don't worry, I can take it. It's just an online forum after all - you've not insulted my mother or anything like that.

You will note I haven't suggest 'Warne out' or that we need to go and buy Chris Martin. I'm saying that we have obvious failings in our team and they are the same issues we had last year. Our midfield lacks bite, the ability to out think other teams is not there.

And as for comments on the squad - of course Nyambe, Elder, Nelson and Wilson are good, you would expect them to be. We are one of the big draws in the lower leagues and we should have the ability to attract better players. But they are not better than Knight, Roberts, Davies, McGoldrick, Ebosele or Kazim-Richards. They just aren't.

And that is the point - our manager is here to turn us around, to improve us as a club and he isn't doing that at the moment. And the signings he has been allowed to bring in haven't done that. And he still doesn't see that our midfield is powder puff. And he still doesn't see that Hourihane is a scandal to be an automatic name on that team sheet.

Should he go? No, not now. But if we don't go up this season he should.

We’ve lost two games in three months and we’re three points off top though? We’ve just paid a transfer fee for the first time in three years. I think any criticism of Warne is just deeply unfair. I happen to agree Hourihane is a liability off the ball but he does create a lot of chances, particularly from set pieces, so I’m willing to accept Warne has decided to take that pay off. 

[BramcoteRam84]

Can’t have control of midfield when your players are struggling to pass and control the ball as was the case last night

[S8TY]

Does make me laugh when I hear Hourihane being compared with Bird

one is 32 and I suspect came here and was brought here to do virtually what he’s doing 

last night Hourihane received a really bad challenge but at least tries to put a foot in …young max will try and nick it rather than put his body on the line 

Hourihane is what I expected and chips in with goals I’m afraid Bird seems a nice little player who you don’t notice much 

If you were looking at Max there is no way you’d think …yes our team needs him in our midfield as he’s not influential and doesn’t do the hard part without the ball 

occasionally Bird will show some neat touches and a nice bit of skill but occasionally is the problem we need a more influential midfielder who will bark orders and dictate the game a bit that is not Max or Hourihane but Houriahne would get in any side in L1 Max wouldn’t 

Bird is still learning and needs a dominant player next to him instead he’s being asked to do what he’s not comfortable with 

Hourihane is what he is but I expect more from Max he needs to step up and take some responsibility but he doesn’t 

so get a really strong CM in who max can benefit from as Hourihane is not that player 

I would play 3 in midfield all day long and getting the right player to go in there is more important than any striker at the moment but the biggest problem I think is the fact the midfield is not as important to Warne as it is to a lot of fans ….he wants two touch move the ball on …not control and be knowledgeable as to when to pass and when to keep the ball 

I really hope the football we’re watching at the moment is not long term but I doubt it ….its not great and that starts with the manager 

[YorkshireRam]

5 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Why did you agree? Why did we need more 'wide' players? Why did our only striker on the pitch (TJJ) end up playing out wide too a lot of the time? Why did we bypass midfield in 'two passes'?

1. I thought they'd offer something different
2. To shift NML into the middle
3. '' ''
4. Because we favour 4 attackers and hitting quickly on the break. That's been exposed a tad over the last few games, and opposition have learned to pack out the midfield and catch us in possession. Warne needs to think up a solution to this. He's proved a certain level of adaptability in the past, so lets see what happens v Cheltenham 

 

[derbydaz22]

17 hours ago, LN747 said:

Seemed obvious for 2 seasons , we struggle to control centre midfield, especially when the pressure is on 

My priority would be a better CM , but where do you find anything better for loan…

 

Midfield has not been right all season I don’t know what’s happened to Bird he was controlling games in the Championship and has only shown glimpses of quality and Hourahan pops up with the odd goal but we might as well play with 10 men when we don’t have the ball as the Captain is not a defensive mid.

[vonwright]

26 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

4. Because we favour 4 attackers and hitting quickly on the break. That's been exposed a tad over the last few games, and opposition have learned to pack out the midfield and catch us in possession. Warne needs to think up a solution to this. He's proved a certain level of adaptability in the past, so lets see what happens v Cheltenham 

 

Think this is right and also why we often struggle against better teams, with better stocked midfields. I personally don't like it - I'd rather be one of those teams that pack midfield and win the battle rather than avoiding it. 

Either way this is hardly a new problem and Warne's had a lot time to come up with a workable plan b. 

Edited January 24 by vonwright

[DavesaRam]

7 hours ago, angieram said:

I do worry that, even with our best players available,  we lack the tactical nous to beat teams with this formation, though.

We won throw ins and corners a plenty last night, but their backline was tall and strong and we were never going to beat them with our "out wide, crosses and set-pieces" mentality. 

The swirling wind didn't help but we didn't do enough to try to play into and round those big defenders along the grass. We were all calling out for it at the game, but it was never going to happen. 

Look at the highlights. Apart from one header, all our good moments came when we played along the floor. Yet we wasted countless set pieces because we couldn't match them in the air. (Watching Bradley trying to get his head on some of those high balls at the end was just comical!) 

The way Warne sets us up only works if teams come at us and give us space to play on the break. But we are good enough as a team to dominate possession most games -  despite being told to treat the ball like a hot potato. Opposition then sits in, defends the cross, we are caught disastrously over-committed in attack and we then look vulnerable on the counter-attack.

But somehow it's all Bird's and Hourihane's fault. 🤔

Actually its ALL Sibley’s fault.

[DavesaRam]

4 hours ago, Jram said:

We’ve lost two games in three months and we’re three points off top though? We’ve just paid a transfer fee for the first time in three years. I think any criticism of Warne is just deeply unfair. I happen to agree Hourihane is a liability off the ball but he does create a lot of chances, particularly from set pieces, so I’m willing to accept Warne has decided to take that pay off. 

You probably want Boris Johnson back as Prime Minister in case there is another pandemic, and to oversee the “Honesty in Politics” initiative.

[Gabby'sThighs]

Warne must have looked at the tactical impact of the great DMs - Keane, Vieira, Makélélé, Davids, Kante, Busquets - and gone - "Nah, just play two standard centre mids and boot the ball over their heads".

[YorkshireRam]

8 minutes ago, vonwright said:

Think this is right and also why we often struggle against better teams, with better stocked midfields. I personally don't like it - I'd rather be one of those teams that pack midfield and win the battle rather than avoiding it. 

Either way this is hardly a new problem and Warne's had a lot time to come up with a workable plan b. 

Me too, even in the victories against Burton and Lincoln, I was sat looking at the 'front 4' and wondering if an extra body in midfield would be more useful to us. I think if we had a double pivot of 2 Bielik-types, we wouldn't need the additional body in there, but when it's Bird and Hourihane, neither are midfield destroyers so when the opposition deploys this tactic, they get overrun very easily.

I think the game where our midfield looked its best was actually Barnsley (H). Hourihane dropped deepest in the quarterback role and actually ran the game- something he's guilty of not doing often enough. Bird furthest forward, and Smith the extra man aiding transition between the 2. 

So I think midfield 3 is the answer, and a settled one personnel-wise for the rest of the season. Hourihane is always going to drift, and Bird is being instructed to push, we need someone to sit centrally and tie it all together- I hoped that'd be Fornah but we'll see...

[Jram]

14 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

You probably want Boris Johnson back as Prime Minister in case there is another pandemic, and to oversee the “Honesty in Politics” initiative.

Eh ??? 😂

[DCFC1976]

Not sure why Warne insists on playing Hourihane in a deep lying position in a two. As has been mentioned his legs have gone so if / when he loses the ball he struggles to make amends, but his ability is still there as has been shown in his finishes. I would like to see him in the 10 position if we play that way if not in a midfield three?

[Walkley Ram]

I don't think any of our midfield can be blamed for our midfield issues.

We lack that Eustace/Thorne/Bielik style player who can break up an attack, find a pass, and allow the other midfield to take a step up the pitch.

The players we have are being asked to fill in that lack of skillset we have, and they're just not suited to it. Bird would really come out of his cage if he had someone next to him to do the dirty work. Hourihane has said several times he's had to adapt his game to play in this side.

It's the one piece of the jigsaw I really think we are missing. A Daryl Powell. A Seth. Call it what you will.

[Gabby'sThighs]

15 minutes ago, oodledoodle said:

Bird would really come out of his cage if he had someone next to him to do the dirty work.

Maybe he'll fly the nest before we ever find out.

[DavesaRam]

6 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Can’t have control of midfield when your players are struggling to pass and control the ball as was the case last night

Because they were rushing the pass having been ordered to only take two touches.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

we need someone to sit centrally and tie it all together- I hoped that'd be Fornah but we'll see...

I'd hoped that too considering it's the job he was doing at Reading in the league above.

..but in his interview he said his favourite thing to do is to carry the ball forward, and it's almost like Warne heard that and decided to disregard what he'd been doing at Reading in favour of having him doing doggies and chasing the ball down in the opposition's half as an advanced midfielder.

It's almost like he was more interested in pleasing the player by letting him do what he wants rather than what would be good for the team. Similar to how he said wanted Korey Smith getting forward more and getting on the scoresheet because of something his son said to him about being the worst player on the pitch if he doesn't score a goal.

Kind of like how Bird has been played as a deep lying midfielder for the senior team by every other manager but now finds himself more as a  no. 10, although that has been good for certain aspects of his game as his numbers would show. (Yet the criticism of him continues)

Anyway, subsequently Fornah's looked pretty pap and seems to have gone backwards, can't be trusted even when not ill, and looks like a signing we've made for the sake of it without any real plan as to how he's going to contribute. Where and how does he get back in the team in any meaningful capacity?

Edited January 24 by May Contain Nuts

[DavesaRam]

1 hour ago, Jram said:

Eh ??? 😂

I was replying to a comment which was as good as saying that Warne is fantastic and does nothing wrong, and that he is all we need.

[YorkshireRam]

2 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

I'd hoped that too considering it's the job he was doing at Reading in the league above.

..but in his interview he said his favourite thing to do is to carry the ball forward, and it's almost like Warne heard that and decided to disregard what he'd been doing at Reading in favour of having him do doggies and chase the ball down in the opposition's half as an advanced midfielder.

It's almost like he was more interested in pleasing the player by letting him do what he wants rather than what would be good for the team. Similar to how he said wanted Korey Smith getting forward more and getting on the scoresheet because of something his son said to him about being the worst player on the pitch if he doesn't score a goal.

Subsequently Fornah's looked pretty pap and seems to have gone backwards, can't be trusted even when not ill, and looks like a signing we've made for the sake of it without any real plan as to how he's going to contribute. Where and how does he get back in the team in any meaningful capacity?

To be fair, that assist Fornah made was class, but aside from that I agree. But it is a very interesting point you raise about keeping players happy. We know Warne is very big on sports psychology and raising players' individual games, so it'd be very interesting to know whether he took those comments into account.

The fact Fornah played in the deepest of the 3 at Reading does give me hope we can still use him in that role this season though, especially as that's exactly what we seem to be missing right now- a mobile CDM to break up play and start us on the attack again.

[Rich3478]

Don’t hugely rate hourihane but think he is doing a better job than bird to be honest. Bird seems to be a midfielder who is neat at passing. Even that creates little though.

Tackling non existent, shooting is two a season, has no pace, little energy. Not bringing enough to the table for me.

hourihane also tackles horribly. But at least assists and scores more.