Ex/Reformed Football Hooligan wanted for Case Study

[Mucker1884]

On 11/01/2024 at 13:23, MadAmster said:

Became the DLF when a Rams Director referred to the "Lunatic Fringe" which the lads adopted. Early 80s I thought.

 

23 hours ago, NottsRam said:

Mike Watterson i think?

 

23 hours ago, Foreveram said:

I remember the interview but again I thought it was a high ranking Policeman that coined the phrase when talking about some recent trouble. 

 

23 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

Yep early 80s, It was after the time when Chelsea and Leeds ripped the seats out of the Ossie End middle tier, Mike Waterson at the time when interviewed said "we have our own lunatic fringe" as the Derby fans were below the Leeds fans and climbed into the middle tier and a battle ensued...

Derby as fans were just a group of "hooligans", We all met at the market place or the Spotted Horse to walk up Saint Peters St, "Football firms names" became more prevalent in the early 80s 

 

13 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Exactly as i remember it Alf. Through the 70's it was just Ossie End and Popside. DLF  became a thing after Waterson used the term. The lads jumped on the Lunatic Fringe thing and came up with the Derby Lunatic Fringe.

 

 

I stand to be corrected, but I believe it was similar at Millwall... Initially, their mob were just known as "Yobs".

It wasn't until that PO semi against us... and with acknowledgement to Graham Richards... that they became "officially" known as "The Brainless Maniacs".

👀

 

 

[Ram-Alf]

2 hours ago, BobdeBilder said:

That feeling as you're walking to the ground,(home or away) and you hear chanting from a large mob down another side street, but you can't quite make out what they're saying. Then relief, or oh s***, as they exit the street in front of you. Certainly got the adrenalin flowing.

Ivy Square to the ground...at night time was fun, A Saturday afternoon walking back to town and many a home owner stood at their front door with a piece of 4x2, A cricket bat, Pick axe handle or the wife in curlers and an apron 😁

We had the time of our lives...now it's shopping at Asda fighting for deals in the whoops isle 

[Eatonram]

I think if you could take  anyone under the age of about 35 whose only experienced football in modern all seater  stadia back in time to a game at the baseball ground in the 70s, they would be awestruck. Firstly everything was sort of grey and run down, grim and very working class. The streets were narrow, the housing really grim street after street, all red brick. The closer you got to the ground the more windows were boarded to stop a brick or bottle growing though. It was the underlying feeling of menace that is hard to describe and you got to be able to spot the signs of when something would kick off. Even then there was far more trouble outside the ground than in and some matches it would flare up all the way back to the station as away supporters got separated from each other. I couldn’t count the times I’ve been close to it but only once got a bit of a kicking from West Ham on Shaftesbury street, saved by a police horse galloping up the street giving out a bit of stick to the cockneys. Even at home Derby  didn’t have the numbers compared to Leeds or Man U but the warren of streets meant there would often be opportunity for the numbers to even out. My first away match at Hillsborough in 1969 saw a sizeable set to in tne kop and you got the tell tale separation in the crowd and then fists and boots flying. Although it was sort of horrible at times I’m glad I’ve got the memories as the experience of football from the terraces is gone forever. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I stand to be corrected, but I believe it was similar at Millwall... Initially, their mob were just known as "Yobs".

It wasn't until that PO semi against us... and with acknowledgement to Graham Richards... that they became "officially" known as "The Brainless Maniacs".

👀

 

 

That documentary of theirs were their wearing the surgical masks is a cracker.  On the coach to Bristol and one of them snarls that their ready for it as they 'hate Northerners'.

[Archied]

50 minutes ago, Eatonram said:

I think if you could take  anyone under the age of about 35 whose only experienced football in modern all seater  stadia back in time to a game at the baseball ground in the 70s, they would be awestruck. Firstly everything was sort of grey and run down, grim and very working class. The streets were narrow, the housing really grim street after street, all red brick. The closer you got to the ground the more windows were boarded to stop a brick or bottle growing though. It was the underlying feeling of menace that is hard to describe and you got to be able to spot the signs of when something would kick off. Even then there was far more trouble outside the ground than in and some matches it would flare up all the way back to the station as away supporters got separated from each other. I couldn’t count the times I’ve been close to it but only once got a bit of a kicking from West Ham on Shaftesbury street, saved by a police horse galloping up the street giving out a bit of stick to the cockneys. Even at home Derby  didn’t have the numbers compared to Leeds or Man U but the warren of streets meant there would often be opportunity for the numbers to even out. My first away match at Hillsborough in 1969 saw a sizeable set to in tne kop and you got the tell tale separation in the crowd and then fists and boots flying. Although it was sort of horrible at times I’m glad I’ve got the memories as the experience of football from the terraces is gone forever. 

Yep I wouldn’t swap experiencing those days , the thing that always made me laugh and showed up those with no idea as having no idea was the always trotted out line that these were not football fans 😂😂😂, they bloody were and the bond to they’re football club and fellow fans was extremely strong 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

That documentary of theirs were their wearing the surgical masks is a cracker.  On the coach to Bristol and one of them snarls that their ready for it as they 'hate Northerners'.

To be fare to the Bushwackers anything outside the boundaries of London was North...and that includes the South coast 😁

[GangwayD]

1 hour ago, Eatonram said:

I think if you could take  anyone under the age of about 35 whose only experienced football in modern all seater  stadia back in time to a game at the baseball ground in the 70s, they would be awestruck. Firstly everything was sort of grey and run down, grim and very working class. The streets were narrow, the housing really grim street after street, all red brick. The closer you got to the ground the more windows were boarded to stop a brick or bottle growing though. It was the underlying feeling of menace that is hard to describe and you got to be able to spot the signs of when something would kick off. Even then there was far more trouble outside the ground than in and some matches it would flare up all the way back to the station as away supporters got separated from each other. I couldn’t count the times I’ve been close to it but only once got a bit of a kicking from West Ham on Shaftesbury street, saved by a police horse galloping up the street giving out a bit of stick to the cockneys. Even at home Derby  didn’t have the numbers compared to Leeds or Man U but the warren of streets meant there would often be opportunity for the numbers to even out. My first away match at Hillsborough in 1969 saw a sizeable set to in tne kop and you got the tell tale separation in the crowd and then fists and boots flying. Although it was sort of horrible at times I’m glad I’ve got the memories as the experience of football from the terraces is gone forever. 

Great post.  I still wished they had developed the old BBG instead of moving to Pride Park.  Those narrow streets around the ground were a warren and you knew every little shortcut or potential place for trouble.  Thankfully I was always on the fringes, and our pre-match ritual were a few pre-match in the Grange then into the Popside or C Stand.  The older lads we're as much cult hero's to me as some of the players. 

Cheers 

Gangway D from the terrace  

 

Edited January 12 by GangwayD

[Kathcairns]

1 hour ago, Eatonram said:

I think if you could take  anyone under the age of about 35 whose only experienced football in modern all seater  stadia back in time to a game at the baseball ground in the 70s, they would be awestruck. Firstly everything was sort of grey and run down, grim and very working class. The streets were narrow, the housing really grim street after street, all red brick. The closer you got to the ground the more windows were boarded to stop a brick or bottle growing though. It was the underlying feeling of menace that is hard to describe and you got to be able to spot the signs of when something would kick off. Even then there was far more trouble outside the ground than in and some matches it would flare up all the way back to the station as away supporters got separated from each other. I couldn’t count the times I’ve been close to it but only once got a bit of a kicking from West Ham on Shaftesbury street, saved by a police horse galloping up the street giving out a bit of stick to the cockneys. Even at home Derby  didn’t have the numbers compared to Leeds or Man U but the warren of streets meant there would often be opportunity for the numbers to even out. My first away match at Hillsborough in 1969 saw a sizeable set to in tne kop and you got the tell tale separation in the crowd and then fists and boots flying. Although it was sort of horrible at times I’m glad I’ve got the memories as the experience of football from the terraces is gone forever. 

Crammed in behind the ossie goal, king kev scores and everyone is just pushed forward. Those were the days to be young.

[Archied]

5 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

Crammed in behind the ossie goal, king kev scores and everyone is just pushed forward. Those were the days to be young.

Those the day my friend , we took the ///////////end 

[ossieram]

Had some fun and games in the past but was never a part of the DLF, although we did help out when they busy.

We were all Ossie park lads and did our own thing on matchdays, but we would venture into town early when we knew it was going to be lively and we travelled all over the country together. 

[ariotofmyown]

What were the feelings like when someone got kidney failure from been kicked in the back, or brain damage for been punched and cracking their head on the kerb?

Have the life changing injuries been blotted out, or did miraculously, no one ever get seriously hurt? Or perhaps is was all bravado and handbags?

[Ram-Alf]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

What were the feelings like when someone got kidney failure from been kicked in the back, or brain damage for been punched and cracking their head on the kerb?

Have the life changing injuries been blotted out, or did miraculously, no one ever get seriously hurt? Or perhaps is was all bravado and handbags?

No bravado or handbags fella, This was life for some, Have you ever walked down a street when going to a football match and been thumped by an away fan, Or maybe grabbed by the throat by our police forces for walking in a group of fans, Kettled in train stations, Put on trains not fit for cattle, Put in a cage(Southampton)yes a cage where even the top was fenced, And you wonder why some(including myself)railed against society, 10s of 1000s were at it all over the Country it's how it was for some, But one thing I'll add, If you were sitting with your partner in a pub and you were being bullied for wearing your colours by the home fans and our kind walked in...you'd stop sh!tting your pants.

 

[ariotofmyown]

3 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

No bravado or handbags fella, This was life for some, Have you ever walked down a street when going to a football match and been thumped by an away fan, Or maybe grabbed by the throat by our police forces for walking in a group of fans, Kettled in train stations, Put on trains not fit for cattle, Put in a cage(Southampton)yes a cage where even the top was fenced, And you wonder why some(including myself)railed against society, 10s of 1000s were at it all over the Country it's how it was for some, But one thing I'll add, If you were sitting with your partner in a pub and you were being bullied for wearing your colours by the home fans and our kind walked in...you'd stop sh!tting your pants.

 

Yeah, I didn't really think the violence was handbags. This then suggests that plenty of people would receive life changing injuries.

When this happened, did everyone accept it as collateral damage. Or did people stop and think if it was really worth it?

I always remember that series about old football violence with Danny Dyer, when they were basically gloryfing Birmingham hooligans who had black fans in their ranks and all listened to cool reggae music. They also stabbed a 12 year old Leeds fan to death, but that part is quickly brushed over as talking about the real impacts is not cool.

So among all the war stories about the old days, are there other stories where a mate lost their site in their left eye, or a another fan was off work for months and was unable to continue working in their existing profession?

Or was it more like TV fighting, when a highly violent fight results in barely a scratch in the next scene?

[Mucker1884]

12 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

What were the feelings like when someone got kidney failure from been kicked in the back, or brain damage for been punched and cracking their head on the kerb?

Have the life changing injuries been blotted out, or did miraculously, no one ever get seriously hurt? Or perhaps is was all bravado and handbags?

I think life changing injuries were few and far between, but not totally unheard of.
I recall a young Brum fan dying in trouble v Leeds... but I think that was more related to a crush than a direct blow in a fight? 🤷‍♂️

Yes, there was plenty of handbags... see my ultra-long post from earlier, for just one example.
There was also an awful lot of hit & hope, or kick and run, so most victims would get a single blow, and many wouldn't have clear ground to fall and bang their heads, due to being in and around the general mob free for all.
Punches, kicks and missiles cut many a head, and presumably broke many a nose/jaw.
Use of knives etc were thankfully not a common theme back then.  Shudder the thought!

A (short) mate of mine got a kung-fu kick to the face by a wolves fan, leaving the BBG.  Broke his nose.
... That was after a cup semi-final (or quarter?) replay on a neutral ground, but we had chosen to wear our black and white scarves, and join the Grimsby fans in the pop-side, so at least it was a case of mistaken identity!  🤣

Edited January 13 by Mucker1884

[CBRammette]

12 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Yeah, I didn't really think the violence was handbags. This then suggests that plenty of people would receive life changing injuries.

When this happened, did everyone accept it as collateral damage. Or did people stop and think if it was really worth it?

I always remember that series about old football violence with Danny Dyer, when they were basically gloryfing Birmingham hooligans who had black fans in their ranks and all listened to cool reggae music. They also stabbed a 12 year old Leeds fan to death, but that part is quickly brushed over as talking about the real impacts is not cool.

So among all the war stories about the old days, are there other stories where a mate lost their site in their left eye, or a another fan was off work for months and was unable to continue working in their existing profession?

Or was it more like TV fighting, when a highly violent fight results in barely a scratch in the next scene?

Although a child, always got impression fans fighting against rivals up for it also - I may be wrong. This recent attack which has received much press locally here was not like that. He died

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-40173741

[ariotofmyown]

15 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

Although a child, always got impression fans fighting against rivals up for it also - I may be wrong. This recent attack which has received much press locally here was not like that. He died

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-40173741

There have been plenty of posts on this thread where Derby fans, not looking for trouble, were chased and attacked.

The people on here who did engage in fighting seem like a decent sort, in terms of only fighting with others who were fighting, or as self defence.

I doubt people who chased and attacked rival fans, who weren't looking for trouble would post that on here, but obviously, lots of Derby fans would have done this too.

[angieram]

I got punched on the side of the head once by an Everton fan on the Popside (back when it was mixed).

No other injuries but being put in a cage away at Norwich and witnessing a Norwich fan do a running dropkick into the back of an older female Derby supporter as we were being "escorted" back to the station, were what stopped me attending matches for about 25 years.

[ariotofmyown]

9 minutes ago, angieram said:

I got punched on the side of the head once by an Everton fan on the Popside (back when it was mixed).

No other injuries but being put in a cage away at Norwich and witnessing a Norwich fan do a running dropkick into the back of an older female Derby supporter as we were being "escorted" back to the station, were what stopped me attending matches for about 25 years.

You and thousands and thousands of other people who stopped going to football matches. But that story isn't very exciting or cool.

[HorsforthRam]

There were certainly some cowardly acts in mob rule. The stamping on heads was particularly sickening when someone is lying on the floor defenceless…. Random object being thrown are always going to hit random fans. One of my friends was hit on the head by a lump of concrete at Valley Parade circa 84/85 (Roy Mac’s first visit there after leaving them to manage us). A particularly violent away day. Glad it’s mostly done with now. 

[Archied]

55 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

There have been plenty of posts on this thread where Derby fans, not looking for trouble, were chased and attacked.

The people on here who did engage in fighting seem like a decent sort, in terms of only fighting with others who were fighting, or as self defence.

I doubt people who chased and attacked rival fans, who weren't looking for trouble would post that on here, but obviously, lots of Derby fans would have done this too.

There obviously were very bad incidents and obviously some very bad people but pretty much everyone I knew never wanted to kill , maim or seriously injure and hitting ordinary people who wernt looking for it was going to get you piss taking and lack of respect as opposed to kudos,

to most it was an adrenaline filled punch up and perhaps a bit silly but you kinda never thought it through to the possibility of real bad stuff , a bit like a boxer dying from a fight in the ring , the surviving boxer never went in to do that , yes they know there’s a chance but in the main it all ends ok , that said the effect will be massive , eubank was never the same animal in the ring after the Watson thing , 

we mostly all do daft things without really thinking what could happen, different now but how many people got behind the wheel of a car with a drink in them , ect ect ect ,

so the people who have a mix of fond memories from those days are lucky enough to have escaped anything really bad to them or doing anything that resulted in what could have happened,

some won’t get and are able to look down on those who did ( fair enough) but we are all different people growing up with different life experiences, as I’ve said earlier, wisdom and responsibility sometimes only comes with age