Warne Out Out

[Van der MoodHoover]

39 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes I dont disagree with using the youngsters in the FA Cup.

If you're going to experiment though you cant complain if we get knocked out.

Only saying that as some people pointing out the funds we would have received for getting through to the next round. 

I thought the complaint was that we didn't experiment and still got knocked out, with more or less the first team.

And at least one poster mentioned a player (hourihane) who appeared to be giving less than 100%.

[G STAR RAM]

22 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I thought the complaint was that we didn't experiment and still got knocked out, with more or less the first team.

And at least one poster mentioned a player (hourihane) who appeared to be giving less than 100%.

The point is, if we had experimented and got knocked out, the same people would have fallen back on the 'we needed the funds from going through' point as the stick to beat Warne with. Guaranteed.

Id say starting with your first team is the logical decision of you're looking to progress. 

[Mucker1884]

On 18/11/2023 at 16:44, Gerry Daly said:

He has failed so far. How long is the period we should set to make a judgement as to whether he has failed or not?

 

Ooh... Ooh...

I think I know this one...

Is the answer "At the end of his tenure"?  

[Srg]

19 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The hope should be that everyone contracted beyond this summer should at least be a sqaud player next season, and not surplus to requirements. Some who would be starters in L1 would be backup in the Championship. There's still time for a number of new signings to adjust to playing for our club and prove they're good signings. I think it's also reasonable to assume we'll change to 3412 next season. Assuming promotion:

GK: ???, Vickers, ???

RCB: Nelson, Rooney

CB: ???, Bradley

LCB: ???, ???

RWB: Ward, Wilson

LWB: ???, Elder

RCM: ???, Fornah

LCM: ???, ???

AM: ???, ???

RCF: ???, ???

LCF: ???, Washington

 

That means we're currently short 14 players, 9 of which would need to be starters. A massive turnover of players, but that can be minimised by extending a number of contracts, and giving opportunities to the academy players to see if they are capable of filling those gaps.

Personally, I would try to extend the contracts for the following players to form my Championship squad: Wildsmith, Cashin, Forsyth, Bird, Thompson and Sibley. That leaves the following gaps: 6 starters (CB, LWB, CM, AM, CF, CF) and 2 backups (GK, CF)

This is where your concern kicks in - Warne is doing very little to aid transition. We need to give more minutes to those who are contracted beyond this season to see where they will fit in (as starters or backup), and test the best of our academy players to see if they can make that step up - either as squad players or even leap first team players and become regualr starters. In particular, Fornah and Thompson (when fit) should be starting ahead of Smith and/or Hourihane, eith the likes of Cox, DRobinson, Weston and Brown getting the odd opportunity too.

Don't disagree, but just from your list I would be surprised to see Cashin and Bird sign on again. 

I think Warne is struggling to manage planning for that future and also planning for promotion, and the trust he seems to have in the older players. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. There's very little excuse, however, for the lack in youngsters in 2 out of the 3 EFL Trophy games, the lack of anything at all in the FA Cup and not using subs better (That Collins sub v Northampton was particularly egregious).

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, Srg said:

Don't disagree, but just from your list I would be surprised to see Cashin and Bird sign on again. 

I think Warne is struggling to manage planning for that future and also planning for promotion, and the trust he seems to have in the older players. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. There's very little excuse, however, for the lack in youngsters in 2 out of the 3 EFL Trophy games, the lack of anything at all in the FA Cup and not using subs better (That Collins sub v Northampton was particularly egregious).

Promotion is the aim, so I can't see us selling either in January without replacing them. If replaced in January with permanent signings, then it keeps the turnover of players down in the summer. If not sold and we win promotion, then I would expect them to sign new deals.

[Banksy]

On 16/11/2023 at 19:31, FlyBritishMidland said:

I don’t think Warne is a good long term planner or strategist, he focuses on short term wins.  This may explain his promotions followed by immediate relegations.  In some way, who can blame him when you see the flak for a defeat.  I think we’ll see less U21 layers used in the EFL Trophy, which is a shame as it’s an ideal stage to gain experience.  He wants the short term wins.  He’s more Mourinho than Fergie - Mourinho built teams for the short term, Fergie built clubs to leave a legacy.

For what it’s worth I wouldn’t say I’m pro-Warne but I’m pro-stability as I do think give a manager time we’ll benefit in the long run.  But I’m wavering as to whether Warne is that manager.

Your thoughts align very much with my own which have developed since Warne joined us. I recognise why Warne was chosen; because of his recent successes in gaining promotion from this division. But over the last 12 months I have become increasingly concerned as to whether he will be able to repeat that feat here and now because of how the modern methods have found their way down to Division One and have overtaken his previously tried and trusted methods. Warne has never accumulated in a single season the number of points attained by the three clubs promoted last season; 92 points may well have seen us not promoted last May. He was outstripped by the younger and emerging McKenna and Schumacher at Ipswich and Plymouth in particular. So far this season the same might be said about John Moussinho at Portsmouth and Liam Manning at Oxford (now replaced by Des Buckingham). All four represent the trend in moving to younger coaches rather than those with an previously established reputation. They seem to be breaking the mould of long ball being best to reach the Championship. Warne, by contrast, seems to be a one-trick-pony who knows no other way than what he’s tried before and seems to have little idea of how to change what is not currently going to plan.

That brings me to the longer term strategic plan for the club with the rebuild of both the academy and the first team, which presently seems to be going in polar opposite directions. The senior team are stuck with Warne’s style while the academy teams continue to follow the style of the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) encompassing a possession and passing game. For me the latter is essential if we are to retain our Category One Academy status because Warne’s methods would simply bring about catastrophe in PL2. The academy managers and coaches recruited for the rebuild seem to have been recruited for their experience and adherence to EPPP in bringing through young professionals to the first-team as has been done here before.

It must be remembered that when they reach that stage, their development is still continuing; it is not suddenly complete. But when they get there they have to dismiss much of what they have been taught to fit in with what Paul Warne wants. It must be confusing, even wasteful, for them I feel and I wonder if it is an underlying reason for why Bird, Sibley and Knight have perhaps not performed at the level we came to hope and even expect from them earlier in their careers? Having said all of that, I am now thinking that unfortunately Paul Warne represents a square peg in a round hole at Derby County and he alone does not fit into the overall plan. I am doubtful about his willingness or ability to change.

When the first team are not playing I watch the academy sides and my thoughts have become more entrenched since the start of the season. But at the end of the day, I’m not a professional coach but just a mere fan. That, like I expect with many supporters, always leaves room for self-doubt about the strength of our own opinions. However, yesterday when reading the EFL paper, I was warmed to come across an article about the new breed of coaches which is a topic that has recently been mentioned several times on here. In much more depth it addressed the subject under discussion. I have done my best to scan the double-page spread in three sections for anyone interested in reading it.

[RoyMac5]

32 minutes ago, Banksy said:

Your thoughts align very much with my own which have developed since Warne joined us. I recognise why Warne was chosen; because of his recent successes in gaining promotion from this division. But over the last 12 months I have become increasingly concerned as to whether he will be able to repeat that feat here and now because of how the modern methods have found their way down to Division One and have overtaken his previously tried and trusted methods. Warne has never accumulated in a single season the number of points attained by the three clubs promoted last season; 92 points may well have seen us not promoted last May. He was outstripped by the younger and emerging McKenna and Schumacher at Ipswich and Plymouth in particular. So far this season the same might be said about John Moussinho at Portsmouth and Liam Manning at Oxford (now replaced by Des Buckingham). All four represent the trend in moving to younger coaches rather than those with an previously established reputation. They seem to be breaking the mould of long ball being best to reach the Championship. Warne, by contrast, seems to be a one-trick-pony who knows no other way than what he’s tried before and seems to have little idea of how to change what is not currently going to plan.

That brings me to the longer term strategic plan for the club with the rebuild of both the academy and the first team, which presently seems to be going in polar opposite directions. The senior team are stuck with Warne’s style while the academy teams continue to follow the style of the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) encompassing a possession and passing game. For me the latter is essential if we are to retain our Category One Academy status because Warne’s methods would simply bring about catastrophe in PL2. The academy managers and coaches recruited for the rebuild seem to have been recruited for their experience and adherence to EPPP in bringing through young professionals to the first-team as has been done here before.

It must be remembered that when they reach that stage, their development is still continuing; it is not suddenly complete. But when they get there they have to dismiss much of what they have been taught to fit in with what Paul Warne wants. It must be confusing, even wasteful, for them I feel and I wonder if it is an underlying reason for why Bird, Sibley and Knight have perhaps not performed at the level we came to hope and even expect from them earlier in their careers? Having said all of that, I am now thinking that unfortunately Paul Warne represents a square peg in a round hole at Derby County and he alone does not fit into the overall plan. I am doubtful about his willingness or ability to change.

When the first team are not playing I watch the academy sides and my thoughts have become more entrenched since the start of the season. But at the end of the day, I’m not a professional coach but just a mere fan. That, like I expect with many supporters, always leaves room for self-doubt about the strength of our own opinions. However, yesterday when reading the EFL paper, I was warmed to come across an article about the new breed of coaches which is a topic that has recently been mentioned several times on here. In much more depth it addressed the subject under discussion. I have done my best to scan the double-page spread in three sections for anyone interested in reading it.

Really interesting. Reading that and considering where we are supposedly going with a Cat1 Academy I just do not understand how and why Warne was chosen. 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

3 hours ago, Banksy said:

Your thoughts align very much with my own which have developed since Warne joined us. I recognise why Warne was chosen; because of his recent successes in gaining promotion from this division. But over the last 12 months I have become increasingly concerned as to whether he will be able to repeat that feat here and now because of how the modern methods have found their way down to Division One and have overtaken his previously tried and trusted methods. Warne has never accumulated in a single season the number of points attained by the three clubs promoted last season; 92 points may well have seen us not promoted last May. He was outstripped by the younger and emerging McKenna and Schumacher at Ipswich and Plymouth in particular. So far this season the same might be said about John Moussinho at Portsmouth and Liam Manning at Oxford (now replaced by Des Buckingham). All four represent the trend in moving to younger coaches rather than those with an previously established reputation. They seem to be breaking the mould of long ball being best to reach the Championship. Warne, by contrast, seems to be a one-trick-pony who knows no other way than what he’s tried before and seems to have little idea of how to change what is not currently going to plan.

That brings me to the longer term strategic plan for the club with the rebuild of both the academy and the first team, which presently seems to be going in polar opposite directions. The senior team are stuck with Warne’s style while the academy teams continue to follow the style of the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) encompassing a possession and passing game. For me the latter is essential if we are to retain our Category One Academy status because Warne’s methods would simply bring about catastrophe in PL2. The academy managers and coaches recruited for the rebuild seem to have been recruited for their experience and adherence to EPPP in bringing through young professionals to the first-team as has been done here before.

It must be remembered that when they reach that stage, their development is still continuing; it is not suddenly complete. But when they get there they have to dismiss much of what they have been taught to fit in with what Paul Warne wants. It must be confusing, even wasteful, for them I feel and I wonder if it is an underlying reason for why Bird, Sibley and Knight have perhaps not performed at the level we came to hope and even expect from them earlier in their careers? Having said all of that, I am now thinking that unfortunately Paul Warne represents a square peg in a round hole at Derby County and he alone does not fit into the overall plan. I am doubtful about his willingness or ability to change.

When the first team are not playing I watch the academy sides and my thoughts have become more entrenched since the start of the season. But at the end of the day, I’m not a professional coach but just a mere fan. That, like I expect with many supporters, always leaves room for self-doubt about the strength of our own opinions. However, yesterday when reading the EFL paper, I was warmed to come across an article about the new breed of coaches which is a topic that has recently been mentioned several times on here. In much more depth it addressed the subject under discussion. I have done my best to scan the double-page spread in three sections for anyone interested in reading it.

This is why we're struggling to attract players

[Gerry Daly]

39 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

This is why we're struggling to attract players

This is also why we are struggling to keep players

[BaianoPOTY98]

5 hours ago, Banksy said:

Your thoughts align very much with my own which have developed since Warne joined us. I recognise why Warne was chosen; because of his recent successes in gaining promotion from this division. But over the last 12 months I have become increasingly concerned as to whether he will be able to repeat that feat here and now because of how the modern methods have found their way down to Division One and have overtaken his previously tried and trusted methods. Warne has never accumulated in a single season the number of points attained by the three clubs promoted last season; 92 points may well have seen us not promoted last May. He was outstripped by the younger and emerging McKenna and Schumacher at Ipswich and Plymouth in particular. So far this season the same might be said about John Moussinho at Portsmouth and Liam Manning at Oxford (now replaced by Des Buckingham). All four represent the trend in moving to younger coaches rather than those with an previously established reputation. They seem to be breaking the mould of long ball being best to reach the Championship. Warne, by contrast, seems to be a one-trick-pony who knows no other way than what he’s tried before and seems to have little idea of how to change what is not currently going to plan.

That brings me to the longer term strategic plan for the club with the rebuild of both the academy and the first team, which presently seems to be going in polar opposite directions. The senior team are stuck with Warne’s style while the academy teams continue to follow the style of the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) encompassing a possession and passing game. For me the latter is essential if we are to retain our Category One Academy status because Warne’s methods would simply bring about catastrophe in PL2. The academy managers and coaches recruited for the rebuild seem to have been recruited for their experience and adherence to EPPP in bringing through young professionals to the first-team as has been done here before.

It must be remembered that when they reach that stage, their development is still continuing; it is not suddenly complete. But when they get there they have to dismiss much of what they have been taught to fit in with what Paul Warne wants. It must be confusing, even wasteful, for them I feel and I wonder if it is an underlying reason for why Bird, Sibley and Knight have perhaps not performed at the level we came to hope and even expect from them earlier in their careers? Having said all of that, I am now thinking that unfortunately Paul Warne represents a square peg in a round hole at Derby County and he alone does not fit into the overall plan. I am doubtful about his willingness or ability to change.

When the first team are not playing I watch the academy sides and my thoughts have become more entrenched since the start of the season. But at the end of the day, I’m not a professional coach but just a mere fan. That, like I expect with many supporters, always leaves room for self-doubt about the strength of our own opinions. However, yesterday when reading the EFL paper, I was warmed to come across an article about the new breed of coaches which is a topic that has recently been mentioned several times on here. In much more depth it addressed the subject under discussion. I have done my best to scan the double-page spread in three sections for anyone interested in reading it.

It’s a pity David Clowes didn’t see this column 15 months ago 😢

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

It’s a pity David Clowes didn’t see this column 15 months ago 😢

No good deed...

[BaianoPOTY98]

It’s also interesting what it says about Rooney as a manager, being employed partly for commercial reasons, surprise, surprise 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

It’s also interesting what it says about Rooney as a manager, being employed partly for commercial reasons, surprise, surprise 

I was more interested in the first para about Rotherham owner looking for an established Championship manager and wondered whether Warne would fit that description! 😄

[DavesaRam]

I have to admit I wasn't excited by the thought of the sort of football Warne would bring with him, but was prepared to give him a chance. And at first I was happy with the urgency which he got us moving the ball forwards. Despite the result in our opening match this season we looked ok, but then came a succession of matches where we were being outplayed by teams with a kindergarten budget and tiny squad. But we didn't have the ideal start to the season, so I wanted to give him, and the team a fair chance. But it has turned out to be really difficult to keep the chance open. Our feelings that the team could do so much more than they were being allowed to was confirmed on the rare occasions when we went onto the pitch and played football, and the frustrations boiled over when, after showing just how we could play, we went back to the "wide and whack it" philosophy, along with its associated poor results. 

The outcry peaked after the Stevenage and Crewe matches, and suddenly we got two decent, footballing performances, almost as if after refusing to go to the fans, Warne just threw his hands in the air and let the lads get on with it. And suddenly it was "corner turned". Only it wasn't, we went to Crewe and went back to wing and whack ------ again! Then two more decent performances, followed yet again by a load of dross.

However, what has turned me firmly into Warne out are two separate things. One is the number of player set to leave us in the summer, which they will if we are not promoted. Is Warne capable, on his Derby history so far, or recruiting better players? Or are we going to end up with a small squad, coupled with lower attendances, and struggling to get the player we need, and therefore get trapped in this league for years to come? 

But worse than that are two things that Paul Warne has said. Firstly, in the pre-match waffle for the Cheltenham match, or should I say mismatch, he told us that the Cheltenham midfield kept getting over-run in their previous matches, so in case they simply packed their midfield out, we would come up with the masterplan of playing around their midfield, which is Warnese for "bang it out to the wings, then lob high balls into the middle  because you never know, they might mis-head it and the ball may fall to one of our players, who might have arrived in the box before the ball gets cleared". We have seen in those matches where we played football that we have quite a good midfield if they are allowed to get involved, but instead of ripping Cheltenham apart, we ran way from them. Then comes his announcement that our young kids have only got two chances of first team football - fat chance and no chance. Guess how many of our young players will sign a new contract with Derby in the face of that glorious hope? It is an absolutely stupid attitude to have, especially when players get to the end of their contract. We could end up with no first team, and no kids to try and fill the gap with because no-one else wants to come here and play for him.

I haven't felt so bereft of hope since I met John Newman all those years ago. He only had to walk in the room and he would suck the will to live out of everybody in the room. I suffer with sleep apnoea, and have to wear a CPAP mask at night, and wonder if I could use it during the day for life apnoea as a Derby County fan?

Edited November 20, 2023 by DavesaRam

[Banksy]

3 hours ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

It’s a pity David Clowes didn’t see this column 15 months ago 😢

The benefit of hindsight would make everyone of us on this planet much the wiser and the world would be so much a better place. What David Clowes has done for Derby County could not have been bettered by any living man born in this county. The debt we owe him can never be repaid.

This column was not available 15 months ago. It was only published yesterday.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Banksy

[BaianoPOTY98]

5 hours ago, Banksy said:

The benefit of hindsight would make everyone of us on this planet much the wiser and the world would be so much a better place. What David Clowes has done for Derby County could not have been bettered by any living man born in this county. The debt we owe him can never be repaid.

This column was not available 15 months ago. It was only published yesterday.

Totally agree Banksy it was a tongue in cheek comment, meaning ‘if only in hindsight’ 🤷‍♂️

[duncanjwitham]

3 hours ago, BaianoPOTY98 said:

Totally agree Banksy it was a tongue in cheek comment, meaning ‘if only in hindsight’ 🤷‍♂️

Some of us where saying it all back before he was even appointed though.  It was obvious the type of football and the type of players he was using at Rotherham were radically different to what we currently had in the first team, and what our academy was geared up to produce.  It was obvious that it was going to be difficult to change that in the short term, given EFL restrictions on transfers etc and the timescales of academy player development (if we even wanted to change it etc).  And if the plan was for him to come here and do something completely different to what he did at Rotherham (thus negating the previous points), then why get him at all, because it basically also negates all his successes at Rotherham if we're not asking him to repeat them.  If was obviously a wrong-headed appointment if you apply even the slightest bit of thought beyond "Paul Warne wins football matches".

[Ram-Alf]

18 hours ago, Banksy said:

Your thoughts align very much with my own which have developed since Warne joined us. I recognise why Warne was chosen; because of his recent successes in gaining promotion from this division. But over the last 12 months I have become increasingly concerned as to whether he will be able to repeat that feat here and now because of how the modern methods have found their way down to Division One and have overtaken his previously tried and trusted methods. Warne has never accumulated in a single season the number of points attained by the three clubs promoted last season; 92 points may well have seen us not promoted last May. He was outstripped by the younger and emerging McKenna and Schumacher at Ipswich and Plymouth in particular. So far this season the same might be said about John Moussinho at Portsmouth and Liam Manning at Oxford (now replaced by Des Buckingham). All four represent the trend in moving to younger coaches rather than those with an previously established reputation. They seem to be breaking the mould of long ball being best to reach the Championship. Warne, by contrast, seems to be a one-trick-pony who knows no other way than what he’s tried before and seems to have little idea of how to change what is not currently going to plan.

That brings me to the longer term strategic plan for the club with the rebuild of both the academy and the first team, which presently seems to be going in polar opposite directions. The senior team are stuck with Warne’s style while the academy teams continue to follow the style of the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) encompassing a possession and passing game. For me the latter is essential if we are to retain our Category One Academy status because Warne’s methods would simply bring about catastrophe in PL2. The academy managers and coaches recruited for the rebuild seem to have been recruited for their experience and adherence to EPPP in bringing through young professionals to the first-team as has been done here before.

It must be remembered that when they reach that stage, their development is still continuing; it is not suddenly complete. But when they get there they have to dismiss much of what they have been taught to fit in with what Paul Warne wants. It must be confusing, even wasteful, for them I feel and I wonder if it is an underlying reason for why Bird, Sibley and Knight have perhaps not performed at the level we came to hope and even expect from them earlier in their careers? Having said all of that, I am now thinking that unfortunately Paul Warne represents a square peg in a round hole at Derby County and he alone does not fit into the overall plan. I am doubtful about his willingness or ability to change.

When the first team are not playing I watch the academy sides and my thoughts have become more entrenched since the start of the season. But at the end of the day, I’m not a professional coach but just a mere fan. That, like I expect with many supporters, always leaves room for self-doubt about the strength of our own opinions. However, yesterday when reading the EFL paper, I was warmed to come across an article about the new breed of coaches which is a topic that has recently been mentioned several times on here. In much more depth it addressed the subject under discussion. I have done my best to scan the double-page spread in three sections for anyone interested in reading it.

Let it go "Robbie" let it go 😊

[Gerry Daly]

I think we have been through the reasons why we should get rid of Warne at some length so pointless to repeat it. I think is useful though to look at the four reasons that are given for keeping him. These are either used on their own or in combination

1. We should be be proper supporters and GET BEHIND OUR TEAM. This gets generally mixed together with supporting Warne because he's the manager and because its about supporting the project and supporting David Clowes. All this MOANING AND NEGATIVITY isn't helping at all and we should recognise that we are in fact 7th on the verge of the play offs. If we were all pulling together and supporting our team

2. We CAN'T AFFORD  to pay him and all his staff off

3. We should not keep CHOPPING AND CHANGING managers and we need to give him time. We are partly in the mess we are because we kept chopping and changing

4. This is a MASSIVE LONG TERM JOB BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATION and those that think there can be a quick fix are DELUDED  

 There may be a fifth in that some people claim to know David Clowes mind and believe he has no intention of getting rid come what may. There is an element of truth to 1 and 3 but I don't believe any of these points are stronger than the evidence that Warne is the wrong man for the job. Also I don't believe 2 and 4 to be true anyway    

[Archied]

22 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

I think we have been through the reasons why we should get rid of Warne at some length so pointless to repeat it. I think is useful though to look at the four reasons that are given for keeping him. These are either used on their own or in combination

1. We should be be proper supporters and GET BEHIND OUR TEAM. This gets generally mixed together with supporting Warne because he's the manager and because its about supporting the project and supporting David Clowes. All this MOANING AND NEGATIVITY isn't helping at all and we should recognise that we are in fact 7th on the verge of the play offs. If we were all pulling together and supporting our team

2. We CAN'T AFFORD  to pay him and all his staff off

3. We should not keep CHOPPING AND CHANGING managers and we need to give him time. We are partly in the mess we are because we kept chopping and changing

4. This is a MASSIVE LONG TERM JOB BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATION and those that think there can be a quick fix are DELUDED  

 There may be a fifth in that some people claim to know David Clowes mind and believe he has no intention of getting rid come what may. There is an element of truth to 1 and 3 but I don't believe any of these points are stronger than the evidence that Warne is the wrong man for the job. Also I don't believe 2 and 4 to be true anyway    

So basically the reasons to get rid by rubbishing any reasons to keep him😂,

creative if nothing else