Fan Forum (not this one)

[ilkleyram]

17 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean the critical difference between your examples, and the Pearce situation is that no UK politician alive is responsible for slavery or nicking the Elgin marbles. They would be apologising on behalf of the institution, which becomes more complex. Pearce's actions have in the very recent past damaged the institution itself.  Again, I'm not expecting everyone to agree but a degree of contrition about what happened and how it happened i think is not just the right thing to do but would also be cathartic for a lot of the fan base who still feel very aggrieved about what happened. 

I think we’ll probably have to agree to disagree @Leeds Ram.

But perhaps I can say this. The club including Pearce and @Owen87ITK, will (I would guess) have spent hours and hours preparing for the forum and very deliberately aimed to make something of a statement of intent right at the beginning, knowing that SP’s continued involvement was an issue amongst some of the fan base. His comments, which he reverted to when they got the question they were expecting, were clearly rehearsed and (again I guess) were couched in the way they were mainly because of the NDAs in place and because they all want to move on - club, Clowes and SP himself.  So the chances of us getting any more are, I think, remote at best. There’s no appetite for it.

Fwiw I don’t think that SP is particularly confident in an open forum on camera. He comes across as over prepared and nervous, unlike Warne who’s the opposite. In my experience most accountants aren’t often good public speakers, able to talk human and quick enough to find the right words to satisfy an audience. It’s why they’re accountants. A sweeping generalisation I appreciate. As CEO you would ideally want him to be a better public communicator but that’s not, in my view, his skill set. Hopefully in smaller groups amongst the staff he’s leading he is better and more confident.

[Owen87ITK]

5 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

I think we’ll probably have to agree to disagree @Leeds Ram.

But perhaps I can say this. The club including Pearce and @Owen87ITK, will (I would guess) have spent hours and hours preparing for the forum and very deliberately aimed to make something of a statement of intent right at the beginning, knowing that SP’s continued involvement was an issue amongst some of the fan base. His comments, which he reverted to when they got the question they were expecting, were clearly rehearsed and (again I guess) were couched in the way they were mainly because of the NDAs in place and because they all want to move on - club, Clowes and SP himself.  So the chances of us getting any more are, I think, remote at best. There’s no appetite for it.

Fwiw I don’t think that SP is particularly confident in an open forum on camera. He comes across as over prepared and nervous, unlike Warne who’s the opposite. In my experience most accountants aren’t often good public speakers, able to talk human and quick enough to find the right words to satisfy an audience. It’s why they’re accountants. A sweeping generalisation I appreciate. As CEO you would ideally want him to be a better public communicator but that’s not, in my view, his skill set. Hopefully in smaller groups amongst the staff he’s leading he is better and more confident.

I couldn’t tell you about any NDA’s or anything like that (because I don’t know about any) but I can tell you that I spoke to Stephen for about ten minutes, about an hour before the event. I had a similar chat with Paul earlier in the day. It was more to make sure they understood the timings and format. So there certainly wasn’t any rehearsing between us. 

Personally my prep was about as limited as it gets, given that the format was primarily questions from the floor, plus the handful we had in advance. I started with a couple from me just to get things going - in my experience it can take an audience a while to warm up, and I wanted it to start with a bit of momentum.

Hope that helps. 

[Comrade 86]

I'm not entirely convinced that Pearce is quite the demonic entity some portray. For all we know, he could have been the one who held things together when they were at their worst. It's quite noticeable that those who have worked with him, Rush, Morris, Quantuma and most latterly Clowes, have to a man all been very complimentary about his work on behalf of the club. I don't doubt for a moment that were he as worthy of scorn as some seem to believe, DC would have swiftly shown him the door as he does not strike me as the sentimental type. It's Clowes' endorsement more than anything, that gives me pause for thought. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

8 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

It was clear the club was in financial difficulty before Morris decided to eventually pull the plug. Our brushing up dangerously close to FFP using dubious loopholes to get us through, delaying the publication of the accounts and relying ever more on the academy as the revenue was drying up. I also doubt that Pearce was unaware that there were potential problems lurking right around the corner. Does someone one day just randomly go 'by the way, i think we need to go into administration' because there's no more money. Whatever happened in regard to this, Pearce allowed the institution to be pushed to its financial limits so that when the plug was eventually pulled disaster erupted. 

I would imagine Morris was a force of nature and not easily advised. The only option open to Pearce was possibly to resign in protest. That perhaps is the only charge I would make against him, that he could have left and didn't. 

All this, from both of us, is supposition however and I'm not going to condemn him based on that. 

[Foreveram]

8 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean the critical difference between your examples, and the Pearce situation is that no UK politician alive is responsible for slavery or nicking the Elgin marbles. They would be apologising on behalf of the institution, which becomes more complex. Pearce's actions have in the very recent past damaged the institution itself.  Again, I'm not expecting everyone to agree but a degree of contrition about what happened and how it happened i think is not just the right thing to do but would also be cathartic for a lot of the fan base who still feel very aggrieved about what happened. 

How do you measure a lot of the fan base.

[Leeds Ram]

7 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

I think we’ll probably have to agree to disagree @Leeds Ram.

But perhaps I can say this. The club including Pearce and @Owen87ITK, will (I would guess) have spent hours and hours preparing for the forum and very deliberately aimed to make something of a statement of intent right at the beginning, knowing that SP’s continued involvement was an issue amongst some of the fan base. His comments, which he reverted to when they got the question they were expecting, were clearly rehearsed and (again I guess) were couched in the way they were mainly because of the NDAs in place and because they all want to move on - club, Clowes and SP himself.  So the chances of us getting any more are, I think, remote at best. There’s no appetite for it.

Fwiw I don’t think that SP is particularly confident in an open forum on camera. He comes across as over prepared and nervous, unlike Warne who’s the opposite. In my experience most accountants aren’t often good public speakers, able to talk human and quick enough to find the right words to satisfy an audience. It’s why they’re accountants. A sweeping generalisation I appreciate. As CEO you would ideally want him to be a better public communicator but that’s not, in my view, his skill set. Hopefully in smaller groups amongst the staff he’s leading he is better and more confident.

Yeah deffo agree to disagree on this one except on the public speaking and accountants claim. I think you're right there 🙂

[Leeds Ram]

37 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I would imagine Morris was a force of nature and not easily advised. The only option open to Pearce was possibly to resign in protest. That perhaps is the only charge I would make against him, that he could have left and didn't. 

All this, from both of us, is supposition however and I'm not going to condemn him based on that. 

I mean it's not supposition that the club was in severe financial distress before administration happened. That's just a fact we all now know about. I admit the rest is a debate predicated upon certain things we are cannot be sure about. I've made my view clear and I totally accept that not everyone shares in that view 🙂 

[Leeds Ram]

19 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

How do you measure a lot of the fan base.

I have not done surveys but I think it's reasonable to say that a substantial portion of the fanbase are still aggrieved about the way the club was run that led to the process of our near extinction. 

[Foreveram]

7 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I have not done surveys but I think it's reasonable to say that a substantial portion of the fanbase are still aggrieved about the way the club was run that led to the process of our near extinction. 

I have not seen any evidence at any of the games this season, so maybe it’s just a few people on a forum.

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, Foreveram said:

I have not seen any evidence at any of the games this season, so maybe it’s just a few people on a forum.

It would be odd if it manifested itself at games because the issue's salience has receded somewhat in the past year or two. This does not mean that fans still don't disapprove of the way the club was run under mad mel and Pearce. 

[Gaspode]

So, did anything interesting come out of the forum? - was hoping this thread might provide a bit of insight, but it just seems to be the usual suspects bitching about the usual things - I live in hope that one day we might be able to move on and look forward....

[Caerphilly Ram]

13 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

So, did anything interesting come out of the forum? - was hoping this thread might provide a bit of insight, but it just seems to be the usual suspects bitching about the usual things - I live in hope that one day we might be able to move on and look forward....

Have you watched it? I would recommend doing so if not. I think how an individual processes the forum still appears to coloured by their own personal opinions, as my take on it was a more positive and optimistic one.

There was discussion around the academy pathways being open to the first team, with Warne saying he discusses the academy prospects regularly with Buxton. Commentary about how decimated the academy was and that they’re focused on replenishing it (which costs) and will take time to get back to the levels it was at. Discussion about recruitment, the potential to look at lower leagues and abroad for value if restrictions (Brexit changes) allow. Insight into the methodology at the leadership of the club with their being a “football executive” consisting of Pearce, Warne, Recruitment, Medical etc to try and make sure it’s ran less as a dictatorship (my word not theirs) than perhaps went before.
Warne as always (in my view) talked a good game and made mostly the right noises, but as others will be quick to point out, it’s whether or not he can deliver on what he says that matters.

In summary I felt optimistic about what was discussed, some of it was honest and open, other aspects were more evasive, and the bit with Waghorn and Hourihane was funny and insightful. 
EDIT - there’s a mixed message of sorts in there that from a first team perspective Warne wants top 6 or promotion asap but the bigger picture of the club appears to me that it’s a longer term project to rebuild within and externally in terms of relationships and perception.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram
Added thoughts

[Gerry Daly]

8 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

So, did anything interesting come out of the forum? - was hoping this thread might provide a bit of insight, but it just seems to be the usual suspects bitching about the usual things - I live in hope that one day we might be able to move on and look forward....

One thing that I thought was interesting, and nobody has mentioned, is that Pearce confirmed that we could have paid fees but chose not to and that our budget is not in any way constrained by the EFL. We are working within our own business plan. Which concerned me a little bit in that it means we can't expect any more spending next season if we are still in this division  

[Foreveram]

24 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

It would be odd if it manifested itself at games because the issue's salience has receded somewhat in the past year or two. This does not mean that fans still don't disapprove of the way the club was run under mad mel and Pearce. 

You said a lot of fans are still looking for an apology, but I see no evidence of this.

[Caerphilly Ram]

3 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

One thing that I thought was interesting, and nobody has mentioned, is that Pearce confirmed that we could have paid fees but chose not to and that our budget is not in any way constrained by the EFL. We are working within our own business plan. Which concerned me a little bit in that it means we can't expect any more spending next season if we are still in this division  

Or we can expect some spending because we didn’t spend this year and have continued to build the club’s finances? Choosing not to rather than not being able to is a very different thing, it suggests a level of restraint, the reasons of which could be varied.

[Leeds Ram]

5 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

You said a lot of fans are still looking for an apology, but I see no evidence of this.

We're going around in circles. I think most fans didn't approve of the way the club was run under Mel and Pearce and the lack of an apology is a bad thing which many would appreciate if given. You just don't see evidence for this which is fair enough. I'll leave it here as we are at a logjam. 

[DavesaRam]

From reading through this thread it would appear that Mr Pearce is a bit of a yes man who chose not to stand up to Mel, or more likely wasn’t allowed to. I also suspect that rather than being a financial disaster zone for years, we were instead run close to the limit, and then overstepped the mark.

Remember the accounting rule we were supposed to have broken was common practice in the real world of business and commerce, and didn’t exist in EFL land until nearly 4 years after we were supposed to have broken it. And the EFL signed off on those accounts 3 years in a row. What SP could have done is therefore unsure.

I think the real problem was Mel taking a gamble on Frank Lampard who repaid us giving a stepping stone into management by a massive betrayal, so instead of the massive paycheque which promotion should have given us, coupled with Franks delayed departure announcement put us months behind in preparation, and we were screwed from then on.

I would much rather that Lampard suffers for all this than Mr Pearce, but yes a suggestion that he should share some of the blame would be helpful.

Anyway it is all way past us now, so lets be positive and look to the future, which could look bright depending on who bought the torch.

 

COME ON YOU RAMS!!!

[DiggerB]

22 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

He’s the financial whizz who do you think came up with the ways to prepare the books? Whilst Mel might have said how can we make more of a go of FFP, it will likely have been the accountancy expert - Pearce - who knew how to execute the plans. He was happy to sit at forums and tell us all everything was hunky dory, very like a politician.

If he felt that uncomfortable with the financial problems and the non-payment of HMRC he could have picked up his ethics and quit?

I disagree with a lot of your opinions on her RM, but this is spot on.

[angieram]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Have you watched it? I would recommend doing so if not. I think how an individual processes the forum still appears to coloured by their own personal opinions, as my take on it was a more positive and optimistic one.

There was discussion around the academy pathways being open to the first team, with Warne saying he discusses the academy prospects regularly with Buxton. Commentary about how decimated the academy was and that they’re focused on replenishing it (which costs) and will take time to get back to the levels it was at. Discussion about recruitment, the potential to look at lower leagues and abroad for value if restrictions (Brexit changes) allow. Insight into the methodology at the leadership of the club with their being a “football executive” consisting of Pearce, Warne, Recruitment, Medical etc to try and make sure it’s ran less as a dictatorship (my word not theirs) than perhaps went before.
Warne as always (in my view) talked a good game and made mostly the right noises, but as others will be quick to point out, it’s whether or not he can deliver on what he says that matters.

In summary I felt optimistic about what was discussed, some of it was honest and open, other aspects were more evasive, and the bit with Waghorn and Hourihane was funny and insightful. 
EDIT - there’s a mixed message of sorts in there that from a first team perspective Warne wants top 6 or promotion asap but the bigger picture of the club appears to me that it’s a longer term project to rebuild within and externally in terms of relationships and perception.

I really enjoyed the part with Waggy and Hourihane. As you say it was funny and insightful, and my opinion of Hourihane has definitely improved after listening to him talk. 

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, angieram said:

I really enjoyed the part with Waggy and Hourihane. As you say it was funny and insightful, and my opinion of Hourihane has definitely improved after listening to him talk. 

Its just a shame he's gonna get subbed after 30 mins for the next 6 weeks as the other players mess with his kit each week 😛