Fan Forum (not this one)

[RoyMac5]

3 hours ago, Loughborough Ram said:

I am not in anyway defending Pearce but I'd be interested to know how many of the Johnny big b*ll*cks on here, with expert financial acumen, and ability to be a ceo, would have given Mel Morris what for, and absolutely disobeyed him and the majority of his decisions.

My guess would be, approximately, zero. Its easy to talk a good game on a Internet chat room, it's another when everything rests on your decisions, and you will actually be proven right or wrong instead of dealing in hypetheticals 

He’s the financial whizz who do you think came up with the ways to prepare the books? Whilst Mel might have said how can we make more of a go of FFP, it will likely have been the accountancy expert - Pearce - who knew how to execute the plans. He was happy to sit at forums and tell us all everything was hunky dory, very like a politician.

If he felt that uncomfortable with the financial problems and the non-payment of HMRC he could have picked up his ethics and quit?

Edited September 15, 2023 by RoyMac5

[alram]

2 hours ago, trappatoni said:

Yes a cat A academy in this division must be almost unprecedented - possibly unique?   It's a huge expense and only makes sense if the manager full buys into the project.   

 

That said there is the caveat that the academy was gutted so perhaps right now the talent isnt there - but set against that the talent only has to break into a L1 side. 

 

Medium term though we absolutely have to have a manager who looks to the academy players.  It's why IF Warne goes I'd at least consider Warburton.  I know he felt bitter Forest sacked him when he was bringing through youth which subsequent managers benefited from. 

he played youth because thats all that fawaz left him with much like mel, the fat greek got rid of him sharpish 

 

if we want a youth development coach i would be looking at the premier league u23 sides, we are not in a position to attract managers with good track records at this level, we will have to think outside the box and get one before somebody else does

[RoyMac5]

39 minutes ago, alram said:

he played youth because thats all that fawaz left him with much like mel, the fat greek got rid of him sharpish

if we want a youth development coach i would be looking at the premier league u23 sides, we are not in a position to attract managers with good track records at this level, we will have to think outside the box and get one before somebody else does

Yeah, but I haven’t seen sign of us doing that yet, have you?

[Ghost of Clough]

55 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

He’s the financial whizz who do you think came up with the ways to prepare the books? Whilst Mel might have said how can we make more of a go of FFP, it will likely have been the accountancy expert - Pearce - who knew how to execute the plans. He was happy to sit at forums and tell us all everything was hunky dory, very like a politician.

If he felt that uncomfortable with the financial problems and the non-payment of HMRC he could have picked up his ethics and quit?

The HMRC non-payment started around the time of the Covid lockdowns, or more importantly, the start of discussions with the fake Sheikh. Terms of those discussions set by Mel likely would have involved the buyer taking on all costs which develop starting from the initial discussion. Government rules at the time facilitated the club (Mel) from not paying HMRC, allowing Mel to not put any more money into the club. Nothing Pearce could do about that other than do his best to keep the club running without any funds from the owner. Of course he could have walked away, but how would the club be better off?

[i-Ram]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The HMRC non-payment started around the time of the Covid lockdowns, or more importantly, the start of discussions with the fake Sheikh. Terms of those discussions set by Mel likely would have involved the buyer taking on all costs which develop starting from the initial discussion. Government rules at the time facilitated the club (Mel) from not paying HMRC, allowing Mel to not put any more money into the club. Nothing Pearce could do about that other than do his best to keep the club running without any funds from the owner. Of course he could have walked away, but how would the club be better off?

Noted. Pearce would also have been in a similar position to the auditors of the club, that they were no doubt relying on the assurances of Mel Morris that he was prepared to personally fund the losses of the club, and to keep funding it so that it could operate as a going concern (notwithstanding it was insolvent). Morris was, and I guess still is a, very wealthy man. He turned his back on the club  not because he didn’t have money, but because he changed his mind on keep funding it. Not a great deal Pearce, the auditors, indeed anyone can do about that. There is only one person you can blame as far as I am concerned.

[RoyMac5]

24 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The HMRC non-payment started around the time of the Covid lockdowns, or more importantly, the start of discussions with the fake Sheikh. Terms of those discussions set by Mel likely would have involved the buyer taking on all costs which develop starting from the initial discussion. Government rules at the time facilitated the club (Mel) from not paying HMRC, allowing Mel to not put any more money into the club. Nothing Pearce could do about that other than do his best to keep the club running without any funds from the owner. Of course he could have walked away, but how would the club be better off?

How was the club any better off? Pearce kept his wages. And the rest of the stuff?

Edited September 15, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Stive Pesley]

10 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Noted. Pearce would also have been in a similar position to the auditors of the club, that they were no doubt relying on the assurances of Mel Morris that he was prepared to personally fund the losses of the club, and to keep funding it so that it could operate as a going concern (notwithstanding it was insolvent). Morris was, and I guess still is a, very wealthy man. He turned his back on the club  not because he didn’t have money, but because he changed his mind on keep funding it. Not a great deal Pearce, the auditors, indeed anyone can do about that. There is only one person you can blame as far as I am concerned.

OK - so how about the way he apparently didn't spot that Kirchner was a total phony, despite working very closely with him on the deal?

 

And to be 100% clear AGAIN - I'm not criticising him for making mistakes.

I'm criticising him for not holding his hands up and being honest about that. 

Those defending him - would you prefer the CEO of our club

a) admit he made some mistakes, but has learned from it or

b) continued to avoid all scrutiny ?

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Stive Pesley said:

OK - so how about the way he apparently didn't spot that Kirchner was a total phony, despite working very closely with him on the deal?

 

And to be 100% clear AGAIN - I'm not criticising him for making mistakes.

I'm criticising him for not holding his hands up and being honest about that. 

Those defending him - would you prefer the CEO of our club

a) admit he made some mistakes, but has learned from it or

b) continued to avoid all scrutiny ?

He's done a) in a round about way. I was hoping he'd at least have to reapply for the post as Clowes had done similar to what he did with the Academy.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, trappatoni said:

Yes a cat A academy in this division must be almost unprecedented - possibly unique?   It's a huge expense and only makes sense if the manager full buys into the project.   

 

That said there is the caveat that the academy was gutted so perhaps right now the talent isnt there - but set against that the talent only has to break into a L1 side. 

 

Medium term though we absolutely have to have a manager who looks to the academy players.  It's why IF Warne goes I'd at least consider Warburton.  I know he felt bitter Forest sacked him when he was bringing through youth which subsequent managers benefited from. 

Sunderland maintained Cat 1 throughout their stay in this division and until recently were the best and most successful academy in the NE as well as winning national competitions during that time.

[i-Ram]

15 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

OK - so how about the way he apparently didn't spot that Kirchner was a total phony, despite working very closely with him on the deal?

 

And to be 100% clear AGAIN - I'm not criticising him for making mistakes.

I'm criticising him for not holding his hands up and being honest about that. 

Those defending him - would you prefer the CEO of our club

a) admit he made some mistakes, but has learned from it or

b) continued to avoid all scrutiny ?

Who are you quoting here? An Administrator? If so, the administrator is the owner of the Club, and Pearce would once again be a (well paid) lackey. The quote you have given proves nothing really, other than the administration were happy with what he was offering.

[Mick Harford]

11 minutes ago, ExiledinDerby said:

Sunderland maintained Cat 1 throughout their stay in this division and until recently were the best and most successful academy in the NE as well as winning national competitions during that time.

 

Also got one of the highest rated youngsters in the country in Chris Rigg.

Just a shame that the top talents go from the likes of us, Sunderland, and Reading (who have a few ex players in age groups) to the bigger teams for what is essentially peanuts in the big scheme of things.

Why I reckon a % of future transfers, say 10% a year, go to clubs that have developed players post 12/13, don't care if it means that player A moving from say, Man Utd to Chelsea costs £40m, if he'd been at Derby for 2 seasons before going to Man Utd then the developing club should get £8m of that as standard.

EPPP was a disaster for Football League clubs and the sell to survive mentality.

 

[duncanjwitham]

38 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

OK - so how about the way he apparently didn't spot that Kirchner was a total phony, despite working very closely with him on the deal?

The thing is, neither did Preston, or the EFL, or Rooney/Stretford, or the rest of the people at Slync.io.  He managed to fool a hell of a lot of people.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Mick Harford said:

 

Also got one of the highest rated youngsters in the country in Chris Rigg.

Just a shame that the top talents go from the likes of us, Sunderland, and Reading (who have a few ex players in age groups) to the bigger teams for what is essentially peanuts in the big scheme of things.

Why I reckon a % of future transfers, say 10% a year, go to clubs that have developed players post 12/13, don't care if it means that player A moving from say, Man Utd to Chelsea costs £40m, if he'd been at Derby for 2 seasons before going to Man Utd then the developing club should get £8m of that as standard.

EPPP was a disaster for Football League clubs and the sell to survive mentality.

 

Agree completely about EPPP. It was supposed to “protect” clubs but even between the Cat 1s there are levels. It also created issues for lads wanting to leave academies for different reasons.

We still have talent and it’s being protected financially better now thankfully. The ones who left IMO most likely to be top level players are currently Delap and Kellyman who we got more than EPPP value but way under market value for.

Currently D Robinson, Brown, Evans, Radcliffe and C Richards are among the ones closest to being first team and all are on deals which protect their value to the club. 

[Foreveram]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

Noted. Pearce would also have been in a similar position to the auditors of the club, that they were no doubt relying on the assurances of Mel Morris that he was prepared to personally fund the losses of the club, and to keep funding it so that it could operate as a going concern (notwithstanding it was insolvent). Morris was, and I guess still is a, very wealthy man. He turned his back on the club  not because he didn’t have money, but because he changed his mind on keep funding it. Not a great deal Pearce, the auditors, indeed anyone can do about that. There is only one person you can blame as far as I am concerned.

You can’t keep blaming Keogh 😤

[Loughborough Ram]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

OK - so how about the way he apparently didn't spot that Kirchner was a total phony, despite working very closely with him on the deal?

 

And to be 100% clear AGAIN - I'm not criticising him for making mistakes.

I'm criticising him for not holding his hands up and being honest about that. 

Those defending him - would you prefer the CEO of our club

a) admit he made some mistakes, but has learned from it or

b) continued to avoid all scrutiny ?

You mean, scrutiny by the fans.

I prefer c) if David Clowes is happy for him to continue, having scrutinised his role in the Mel Morris era, then I'm more than happy.

Are we so unhappy at this club that we have find problems with everything. Warnes rubbish, the players are rubbish, the recruitment team are rubbish, the CEO is rubbish and on we go, when is this disharmony ever going to stop?

[rynny]

6 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

He was CFO when Sam Rush was sacked for alleged financial irregularities. As CFO either he was negligent in policing what was going on, or he was complicit in what was going on.

That assumes that what Sam Rush was allegedly doing was straight forward and easy to pick up on. Maybe it was quite intricate and difficult to unravel and Pearce was the one who uncovered the alleged offences?

6 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

He was CFO/CEO throughout the MM FFP-busting glory years and eventual admin. Again he was either negligent or complicit

Playing devil's advocate, what if Pearce reigned Mel in? What if things would have been a lot worse if Pearce wasn't here and Mel had plans to spend even more money and try to exploit even more perceived loop holes and Pearce stopped him? 

Pearce may have signed an NDA and can't mention anything at all. Another reason is that Mel may still be a friend and he doesn't want to throw his friend under the bus, anymore than has already happened. Or it could simply be that he wants to draw a line under what could be the worst period in his life and move forward, and not have to defend himself constantly? There is more than your 2 perceived reasonings.

[Leeds Ram]

10 minutes ago, rynny said:

That assumes that what Sam Rush was allegedly doing was straight forward and easy to pick up on. Maybe it was quite intricate and difficult to unravel and Pearce was the one who uncovered the alleged offences?

Playing devil's advocate, what if Pearce reigned Mel in? What if things would have been a lot worse if Pearce wasn't here and Mel had plans to spend even more money and try to exploit even more perceived loop holes and Pearce stopped him? 

Pearce may have signed an NDA and can't mention anything at all. Another reason is that Mel may still be a friend and he doesn't want to throw his friend under the bus, anymore than has already happened. Or it could simply be that he wants to draw a line under what could be the worst period in his life and move forward, and not have to defend himself constantly? There is more than your 2 perceived reasonings.

Genuinely wondering how it could have been worse than it was. We came within a gnat's hair of going extinct, poisoned our relations with clubs, and football bodies and the fans were, if not directly lied to by the club, were lied to by the sin of omission as we sat on the brink with a mountain of unserviceable debt. It's going round in circles but for Pearce at the very least not to come out and say 'I want to apologise to the staff, the fans, and the community for my part in the shambles but I want to stay and fix it' highlights either extremely poor media management or an arrogance and/or spinelessness bordering on the obscene. (apologies if he has said this but i can't remember him saying so). 

I've already made my feelings on his staying and his willingness to stay highlights a certain shamelessness that I don't think you see in many individuals personally. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[rynny]

12 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Genuinely wondering how it could have been worse than it was.

We could not be here, administration could have happened before it actually did.

[Tyler Durden]

30 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Genuinely wondering how it could have been worse than it was. We came within a gnat's hair of going extinct, poisoned our relations with clubs, and football bodies and the fans were, if not directly lied to by the club, were lied to by the sin of omission as we sat on the brink with a mountain of unserviceable debt. It's going round in circles but for Pearce at the very least not to come out and say 'I want to apologise to the staff, the fans, and the community for my part in the shambles but I want to stay and fix it' highlights either extremely poor media management or an arrogance and/or spinelessness bordering on the obscene. (apologies if he has said this but i can't remember him saying so). 

I've already made my feelings on his staying and his willingness to stay highlights a certain shamelessness that I don't think you see in many individuals personally. 

Maybe as part of his pennance along with his daily ritual of a hundred hail Mary's and our Fathers he's working for free for the club until he is released from his obligation when we are promoted to the Premiership 

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

We could not be here, administration could have happened before it actually did.

Administration happening before it did is not 'worse' it's the same outcome we ended up in. His management of the club's finances put us in the very real position of a week until extinction. I'm not sure how it gets worse than that from a managerial point of view.