Is Warne living on borrowed time?

[duncanjwitham]

25 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

The Twitter reply from JamesP just goes to show how things can be taken out of context and marginal facts can used to make a point.

Last season may have been our joint ever lowest finish but have we ever started a season with such a hastily thrown together squad before? Have we ever completed a season under such external restrictions before? Have we ever found ourselves in this league before purely because of a massive points deduction before? If we fail to get promoted this season then yes, it will be our longest ever period in league 1 but potentially only by one season.
 

That's a rod we made entirely for our own back though.  I know there was some unhappiness at Rosenior's management, but if we'd stuck with him, having given him the squad he wanted, I think people would have largely accepted a season or 2 of getting ourselves sorted after the previous mess.  But we didn't do that - we went and got Paul "guarantees promotion" Warne.  That's instantly setting expectations sky-high.  And then we fail last year, and the signs are not good this year either (obviously early days etc).  Add in the comments about the financial restrictions being eased and good budgets.  

[Tamworthram]

7 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I agree, not dismissing that, just highlighting that there was always an element of it taking time for the club to get back to a solid footing with ongoing player turnover likely for a couple of windows more than some are accepting of. That time could have been improved this summer no doubt, but we’d still have had Hourihane, Smith, NML, Barkhuizen and Collins to renew or replace at the end of this season. 

But my original point remains valid and, I think, you’re kind of agreeing. Whilst it’s factually correct, it is taking things out of context by calling out last season for being our joint worst finish. As you say, there has to be an element of time (normally) for a club to get back on solid footing. 
 

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

If choosing a captain by vote is good enough for Guardiola and Klopp, why would it not be good enough for us?

really liked your post and fear part of the problem is that Warne is not a good manager or recruiter of young players with promise.  Also, his clumsy public utterances about his squad mean he’s likely to lose stronger players  

But on the captaincy: looks like each of Klopp and Pep has done it once only (in their entire careers) and in the case of klopp the outcome was inevitable and in the case of City it didn’t matter. Each of them has players lining up to give 110% for every minute of every game. imo Hourihane’s effort will inevitably drop off in due course (I think it’s been decent so far) and when it does we will pay for the folly. Warne should have waited to allow Bradley to settle in  

Comparing us w City and Liverpool in general isn’t likely to be helpful. To do so in the context of one specific managerial decision without looking at the specific context certainly isn’t. 

Strongly disagree with those who say it doesn’t matter who is ‘playing captain’

[TomTom92]

Worth noting that despite the near catastrophe and world falling apart of last pre season, we finished 7th after 46 matches. Surely a calmer pre season with an established manager and a recruitment guru should show an improvement?

Especially when Ipswich and Weds have left the party and a points deducted Wigan and off field craziness Reading have joined it. 

I can't help but feel Warne's 'needs to be a good person' has held us back. Sure i agree with the plan on paper, but give me the Devil up front if he knows how to hit 20 a season. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, LondonRam2 said:

Am in agreement with most of the above, and am not suggesting that he be jettisoned, just that he seems slow to learn from his mistakes.  Most L1 managers simply don't get the kind of interest and coverage that he now does, and I stand by my central point that it really matters what you say about players on the national stage (and managing Derby does put you on the national stage whether you like it or not), rather than on the back page of the Rotherham Bugle & Dubious Advertiser (circulation 94).

"One of the lads" sums it up.  When you become a manager you have to learn to distance yourself a bit.  In my years in Senior Management I would never accept invitations to go down the pub, because that's exactly where they can let off steam by complaining about YOU.  PW would accept, buy drinks for everyone, talk too much, and leave his people griping even more because they still hadn't been able to let off steam and complain about him.

Promoted 3 times yes, but you could argue that the 2nd and 3rd promotions only became necessary because, erm, he couldn't keep them in the Championship.  Can he deliver the one (promotions) without the other (relegations back to L1)?  In that respect he is, one could argue, as yet untested.

I'm not qualified to critique his football knowledge, but I am qualified to critique his approach to people, especially his players.  TBH, despite all the bonhomie, I just don't buy it, and I think some players don't buy it either.  Furthermore, I think that to some prospective signings PW's verbal diarrhoea is actually a reason NOT to sign.  I suspect that most players would prefer an honest b******ing where needed rather than all this passive-aggressive "I'm just a normal bloke, me" rubbish.

I spent a day fending this off when I stated it a while ago to the point I'd rather have had the actual thing.  

[Tamworthram]

2 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

That's a rod we made entirely for our own back though.  I know there was some unhappiness at Rosenior's management, but if we'd stuck with him, having given him the squad he wanted, I think people would have largely accepted a season or 2 of getting ourselves sorted after the previous mess.  But we didn't do that - we went and got Paul "guarantees promotion" Warne.  That's instantly setting expectations sky-high.  And then we fail last year, and the signs are not good this year either (obviously early days etc).  Add in the comments about the financial restrictions being eased and good budgets.  

 Whether it was a Rod entirely of our own making (or to be more accurate, the making of our previous owner) isn’t necessarily relevant. That’s still the situation we (Rosenior and then Warne) faced. 
 

Regarding Rosenior, do you really think he would have been cut that much more slack? I suspect we would just have had a different group of supporters calling for his head saying he should have been replaced by a more experienced manager. I also don’t think anyone with much intelligence ever described PW as “guaranteed promotion”. We failed to get promoted last season that is true but, last season was no more an unmitigated failure than a success. We fell short at our first attempt. Regarding this season, we’ll you’ve answered your own point there “obviously early days”.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

28 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We definitely could have targeted more younger players. Here's a list of players from our main promotion rivals meeting, who (a) didn't cost a transfer fee (ie. free or loan), (b) are under 30, and (c) have been used in the league already this season:

Barnsley - Liam Roberts (28, GK), Kacper Lopata (21, CB) Kyran Lofthouse (22, RB), Andy Dallas (24, CF)

Blackpool - Matthew Pennington (28, CB), Albie Morgan (23, CM)

Bolton - Nathan Baxter (24, GK), Joel Coleman (27, GK), Josh Dacres-Cogley (27, RB), Paris Maghoma (22, CM)

Charlton - Lloyd Jones (27, CB), Panutche Camara (26, CM)

Oxford - James Beadle (19, GK), Jordan Thorniley (26, CB), Fin Stevens (19, RB), Stanley Mills (19, RW), Rúben Rodrigues (27, CF), Mark Harris (24, CF)

Peterborough - Romoney Crichlow (24, CB), Peter Kioso (23, RB)

Portsmouth - Will Norris (29, GK), Conor Shaughnessy (27, CB), Regan Poole (25, CB), Jack Sparkes (22, LB), Ben Stevenson (26, CM), Alex Robertson (20, CM), Gavin Whyte (27, RW), Abu Kamara (20, CF)

Reading - Tyler Bindon (18, CB), Tivonge Rushesha (21, CM), Lewis Wing (28, CM), Harvey Knibbs (24, CF)

Wigan - Liam Morrison (20, CB), Kell Watts (23, CB), Sean Clare (26, RB), Matt Smith (22, CM), Jonny Smith (26, RW)

Wycombe - Kane Vincent-Young (27, RB), Harry Boyes (21, LB), Freddie Potts (20, CM), Kian Breckin (19, CM), Dale Taylor (19, CF)

 

Matt Pennington and Lloyd Jones would were my top 2 CB picks who didn't end up in the Championship, Jack Sparkes my top LWB pick. Harvey Knibbs in an AM role. Aaron Pressley and Tyler Walker (at sides lower in the table) were also my top 2 CF targets, etc..

There's 3.  Possibly Rodrigues as well.

[Wolfie]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

Hmmm

History suggests he knew how to get Rotherham out of the league, but that doesn't necessarily mean it shows he knows how to get Derby out of it.

History only shows that in his one attempt so far to get Derby out of the league, he failed. He took a team which should have been capable of finishing in the top 6 and finished 7th, missing out by a solitary point.

 

OK & while I agree with the first bit, your whole argument is based on the bit in bold which, IMO at least, suggests that your expectations from last season were on the high side, given that we had a wafer thin, aging and makeshift squad with no RB (for example).

[Shuff264]

10 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Worth noting that despite the near catastrophe and world falling apart of last pre season, we finished 7th after 46 matches. Surely a calmer pre season with an established manager and a recruitment guru should show an improvement?

Especially when Ipswich and Weds have left the party and a points deducted Wigan and off field craziness Reading have joined it. 

I can't help but feel Warne's 'needs to be a good person' has held us back. Sure i agree with the plan on paper, but give me the Devil up front if he knows how to hit 20 a season. 

Very concerning that after a near catastrophe of last season, come the first few games of the season we looked a much more cohesive team than we do now.

[Gerry Daly]

42 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We definitely could have targeted more younger players. Here's a list of players from our main promotion rivals meeting, who (a) didn't cost a transfer fee (ie. free or loan), (b) are under 30, and (c) have been used in the league already this season:

Barnsley - Liam Roberts (28, GK), Kacper Lopata (21, CB) Kyran Lofthouse (22, RB), Andy Dallas (24, CF)

Blackpool - Matthew Pennington (28, CB), Albie Morgan (23, CM)

Bolton - Nathan Baxter (24, GK), Joel Coleman (27, GK), Josh Dacres-Cogley (27, RB), Paris Maghoma (22, CM)

Charlton - Lloyd Jones (27, CB), Panutche Camara (26, CM)

Oxford - James Beadle (19, GK), Jordan Thorniley (26, CB), Fin Stevens (19, RB), Stanley Mills (19, RW), Rúben Rodrigues (27, CF), Mark Harris (24, CF)

Peterborough - Romoney Crichlow (24, CB), Peter Kioso (23, RB)

Portsmouth - Will Norris (29, GK), Conor Shaughnessy (27, CB), Regan Poole (25, CB), Jack Sparkes (22, LB), Ben Stevenson (26, CM), Alex Robertson (20, CM), Gavin Whyte (27, RW), Abu Kamara (20, CF)

Reading - Tyler Bindon (18, CB), Tivonge Rushesha (21, CM), Lewis Wing (28, CM), Harvey Knibbs (24, CF)

Wigan - Liam Morrison (20, CB), Kell Watts (23, CB), Sean Clare (26, RB), Matt Smith (22, CM), Jonny Smith (26, RW)

Wycombe - Kane Vincent-Young (27, RB), Harry Boyes (21, LB), Freddie Potts (20, CM), Kian Breckin (19, CM), Dale Taylor (19, CF)

 

Matt Pennington and Lloyd Jones would were my top 2 CB picks who didn't end up in the Championship, Jack Sparkes my top LWB pick. Harvey Knibbs in an AM role. Aaron Pressley and Tyler Walker (at sides lower in the table) were also my top 2 CF targets, etc..

Its horrifying when you read that. What on earth have we been playing at

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

 Whether it was a Rod entirely of our own making (or to be more accurate, the making of our previous owner) isn’t necessarily relevant. That’s still the situation we (Rosenior and then Warne) faced. 
 

Regarding Rosenior, do you really think he would have been cut that much more slack? I suspect we would just have had a different group of supporters calling for his head saying he should have been replaced by a more experienced manager. I also don’t think anyone with much intelligence ever described PW as “guaranteed promotion”. We failed to get promoted last season that is true but, last season was no more an unmitigated failure than a success. We fell short at our first attempt. Regarding this season, we’ll you’ve answered your own point there “obviously early days”.

I'm not really talking about the admin/Mel Morris stuff.  I'm purely talking the stuff that happened after that.  We had the choice to either stick with the rookie manager and let him have a go, or go and get a proven League One manager with a 100% promotion record.  Choosing the second option instantly raised expectations.  People on here were openly saying words to the effect of "guarantees promotion" when we appointed him.  Various comments made by Warne, Clowes and others have raised expectations too.  By it's actions and it's words, the club is very much saying we expect to be promotion challengers.  So it's no surprised that fans take that on board and judge the club's performance against it.  

There's no doubt that Rosenior would have been under pressure if we didn't go up.  But if the club was putting out the message that it would be a slow road back to stability and we were going to do things properly, enough people would have bought into it IMO.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

9 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

OK & while I agree with the first bit, your whole argument is based on the bit in bold which, IMO at least, suggests that your expectations from last season were on the high side, given that we had a wafer thin, aging and makeshift squad with no RB (for example).

Hourinhane, Mendez Laing, McGoldrick, Barkhuizen, retaining Knight and Sibley.  Lets be honest, most teams bar a couple at this level would've s*** their pants with joy at having that lot in their first 11 on opening day and that couple would've taken a few for their squad happily. 

[Wolfie]

12 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Hourinhane, Mendez Laing, McGoldrick, Barkhuizen, retaining Knight and Sibley.  Lets be honest, most teams bar a couple at this level would've s*** their pants with joy at having that lot in their first 11 on opening day and that couple would've taken a few for their squad happily. 

That may be so but I'm pretty sure I remember the expectations poll for last season didn't have the majority saying we should be achieving at least top 6.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

Its horrifying when you read that. What on earth have we been playing at

At some point at Rotherham, he strangely moved away from the transfer strategy of signing under 30s AND regularly playing them. perhaps that was his solution to not get relegated from the Championship anymore. Seems like he's goin 
Below is a list of players signed in each season, who featured for more than 1000 minutes in the league:

22/23 - Humphreys (CB, 23), Norton-Cuffy (RB, 18)
21/22 - Edmonds-Green (CB, 22), Rathbone (CM, 24)
20/21 - Johansson (GK, 21), Blackman (GK, 26), MacDonald (CB, 27), Hardin (20/21), Giles (LB, 20), Barlaser (CM, 23), Wing (CM, 25)
19/20 - Iverson (GK, 22), Olosunde (RB, 21), Barlaser (CM, 22), Lindsay (CM, 23), Ogbene (RW, 22), Ladapo (CF, 26), Morris (CF, 23)
18/19 - Rodak (GK, 21), Robertson (CB, 24), Vyner (CB, 21), Manning (LB, 22), Towell (CM, 27)
17/18 - Rodak (GK, 20), Ajayi (CB, 23), Emmanuel (RB, 19), Towell (CM, 26), Williams (RW, 23), Ball (CF, 27), Moore (CF, 25), Smith (CF, 25)

[May Contain Nuts]

29 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

OK & while I agree with the first bit, your whole argument is based on the bit in bold which, IMO at least, suggests that your expectations from last season were on the high side, given that we had a wafer thin, aging and makeshift squad with no RB (for example).

It's not entirely based on my expectations, I'm quoting the manager when I say our finishing position constituted failure. If you appoint someone of Warne's reputation of course the expectations do go up slightly though, that's completely natural.

There's tangible evidence that even with its limitations the squad had it within them to achieved a play-off position, had there been even a minimal improvement in the way some games (or even one game) was managed.

We're only talking about gaining one extra point, we had the same goal difference as the team in 6th so even just one goal changes the season from success to failure and vise versa. It's fine margins but that's football,  and we appointed Warne in order to come out the correct side of them.

[Tamworthram]

47 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I'm not really talking about the admin/Mel Morris stuff.  I'm purely talking the stuff that happened after that.  We had the choice to either stick with the rookie manager and let him have a go, or go and get a proven League One manager with a 100% promotion record.  Choosing the second option instantly raised expectations.  People on here were openly saying words to the effect of "guarantees promotion" when we appointed him.  Various comments made by Warne, Clowes and others have raised expectations too.  By it's actions and it's words, the club is very much saying we expect to be promotion challengers.  So it's no surprised that fans take that on board and judge the club's performance against it.  

There's no doubt that Rosenior would have been under pressure if we didn't go up.  But if the club was putting out the message that it would be a slow road back to stability and we were going to do things properly, enough people would have bought into it IMO.

That's fair enough then. You misled me by only highlighting the text when I said "hastily thrown together a squad" and not replacing the manager. I wasn't using the manager replacement as mitigation for our disappointing season. 

[RoyMac5]

27 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

At some point at Rotherham, he strangely moved away from the transfer strategy of signing under 30s AND regularly playing them. perhaps that was his solution to not get relegated from the Championship anymore. Seems like he's goin 
Below is a list of players signed in each season, who featured for more than 1000 minutes in the league:

22/23 - Humphreys (CB, 23), Norton-Cuffy (RB, 18)
21/22 - Edmonds-Green (CB, 22), Rathbone (CM, 24)
20/21 - Johansson (GK, 21), Blackman (GK, 26), MacDonald (CB, 27), Hardin (20/21), Giles (LB, 20), Barlaser (CM, 23), Wing (CM, 25)
19/20 - Iverson (GK, 22), Olosunde (RB, 21), Barlaser (CM, 22), Lindsay (CM, 23), Ogbene (RW, 22), Ladapo (CF, 26), Morris (CF, 23)
18/19 - Rodak (GK, 21), Robertson (CB, 24), Vyner (CB, 21), Manning (LB, 22), Towell (CM, 27)
17/18 - Rodak (GK, 20), Ajayi (CB, 23), Emmanuel (RB, 19), Towell (CM, 26), Williams (RW, 23), Ball (CF, 27), Moore (CF, 25), Smith (CF, 25)

When did he switch from 4-4-2? I seem to remember someone posting/tweeting that he said that was how he preferred to play.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

I can't help but feel Warne's 'needs to be a good person' has held us back.

Be very confident in your feelings on this matter because they are certainly correct. Throughout my working life I found that leaders who were intent on being popular tended always to make what they saw as popular decisions whereas the most successful leaders were always ready to impose the unpopular decisions when they felt they were necessary for the benefit of the whole organisation. 

Brian Clough was never outwardly concerned about his popularity. If he had been, he could never have been so outrageously abrasive and forthright. The players who played for him will tell you that at times they couldn't stand the man but at the same time they would run through brick walls for him if they could. It's a fact that during his tenure here, a player never asked to leave the club. Their heads were never for turning.

Paul Warne clearly likes to be popular and he tells us he is learning everyday. Maybe a desire to be popular was behind his reluctance to become a manager in the first place. But if he wants to become popular here, the best way to achieve that is to make us successful on the football field. To do that, part of his learning curve must be to start making the unpopular decisions when it might upset an individual for a short time but overall it will be for the good of the club. If he gets that right, then the days on here of running simultaneously four negative threads about him will simply become a thing of the past. Here's hoping.

COYR

[RadioactiveWaste]

Well, he's not gone full ostrich quite yet.

 

[DCFC Kicks]

14 hours ago, Blondest Goat said:

We haven't bought anyone better.

If we don't have a striker, why are we playing a formation with two of them? just play a 3-4-3 with NML on the wing