Pride Before The Fall-Ryan Conway

[RadioactiveWaste]

30 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

In terms of bad hands dealt to Derby managers you'd find it bloody difficult to find much worse than the ones dealt to Cocu, all things considered.

Phil "none more orange" Brown springs to mind for bad deal off the board.

[GboroRam]

8 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Phil "none more orange" Brown springs to mind for bad deal off the board.

A crap manager with a crap team. I remember the resulting crap football. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Just now, GboroRam said:

A crap manager with a crap team. I remember the resulting crap football. 

He was genuinely terrible, working under genuinely terrible ownership, delivering genuinely terrible football. That was such a crap season. Although I always laugh at camp getting dropped for his goalkeeping coach and camp's dad having words with the tangerine entity.

[Bris Vegas]

6 hours ago, The Key Club King said:

Not sure why there is all this love for Cocu. Nice bloke certainly, but we were woeful that year, should have been relegated, and the squad was far better and built under far fewer restrictions than the following year. Other than 2007/08 it was the worst I have seen Derby in 40 years of following them. 

It was impossible for Cocu to succeed here, especially in his second season as he was forced to play Rooney which was the equivalent of starting every game with 10 men. He was that unfit and slow, we were walked over. Throw in the fact he didn’t have Bielik and we had no strikers after Chris Martin left.

It was clear as day when Rooney was suspended for two games (Forest away and Cardiff at home), we drew both 1-1 but should have won both had it not been for woeful officiating or Waghorn missing sitters. We looked competent again.

It was never suggested Cocu would have gotten us promoted. But the work he had already put in place with our youngsters was impressive. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Bris Vegas

[Leeds Ram]

I'm not going to buy this. Don't rate Conway as a journo; still remember his 'interview' with Eric Alonso, which amounted to nothing more than a puff piece with less interrogation than twitter managed to unearth. 

[TuffLuff]

Did anyone pick this up on preorder or since it was released?

[vonwright]

On 10/08/2023 at 08:27, The Key Club King said:

Not sure why there is all this love for Cocu. Nice bloke certainly, but we were woeful that year, should have been relegated, and the squad was far better and built under far fewer restrictions than the following year. Other than 2007/08 it was the worst I have seen Derby in 40 years of following them. 

Yep. Agree. I though Cocu would be brilliant, and he just wasn't. Maybe his brand of football wasn't suited to the Championship. Maybe it isn't suited to any team that isn't Barcelona, or the equivalent of Barcelona in other leagues (he's not exactly tearing up trees with Vitesse).

Rooney achieved much more with far fewer resources, surrounded by utter chaos and with a huge points deduction hanging over the club. Yet some people still think Cocu was a better manager.

There's more to management than a nice suit and an urbane manner. 

Also, I'm not sure about all this 'He was undermined by having to play Rooney'. Rooney wasn't great but he wasn't exactly terrible. When played in midfield he had some good games alongside Bird, and was key to Bird's development. I'm not sure he deserved to start every game on merit but Cocu's problems didn't begin and end with Rooney. He was here a long time. It just didn't work.

Edited October 14, 2023 by vonwright

[BondJovi]

8 hours ago, vonwright said:

Yep. Agree. I though Cocu would be brilliant, and he just wasn't. Maybe his brand of football wasn't suited to the Championship. Maybe it isn't suited to any team that isn't Barcelona, or the equivalent of Barcelona in other leagues (he's not exactly tearing up trees with Vitesse).

Rooney achieved much more with far fewer resources, surrounded by utter chaos and with a huge points deduction hanging over the club. Yet some people still think Cocu was a better manager.

There's more to management than a nice suit and an urbane manner. 

Also, I'm not sure about all this 'He was undermined by having to play Rooney'. Rooney wasn't great but he wasn't exactly terrible. When played in midfield he had some good games alongside Bird, and was key to Bird's development. I'm not sure he deserved to start every game on merit but Cocu's problems didn't begin and end with Rooney. He was here a long time. It just didn't work.

I don't think we were that bad at the start of 20/21 and unlucky not to have 3-5 more points. I was surprised when I looked back at the match stats to see how close those matches were. We haved played far worse football matches under Rooney and Warne since then.

For most of those first 9 games, we didn't have the key players in the so called Rooney revival. No Cazim Richards, Lawrence, Waghorn, Bielik. Which would explain why we struggled with goals! It also helped not having Rooney on the pitch later.

 

[MadAmster]

On 10/08/2023 at 02:51, Guest said:

If you are relying on Morris's appointment of managers to further your argument I think you have completely lost the plot; he flushed c£30m down the pan compensating his appointments when he fired them. He claimed he appointed Cocu having personally identified him as the perfect fit for youth development but soon lost faith. It was Morris that brought Rooney into the club when we couldn't afford him. It was absurd. I am only supportive of Rooney in respect of his leadership when the wheel came off and Morris had thrown us to the wolves. You really do have some worrying thought processes and I find that completely boring. You are as effective as Mogadon. Your own perceptions of Rooney seem to be based on an obsessive dislike of him, probably going back years. It's irrational Rumpole. 

32RED upped their sponsorship by the amount of Rooney's wages and he agreed to be some kind of ambassador for them. The net cost of Rooney's wages was zero. All paid for by the extra sponsorship, money the club wouldn't have got had Rooney not come in...

[Stive Pesley]

On 13/10/2023 at 21:01, TuffLuff said:

Did anyone pick this up on preorder or since it was released?

I guess that's a no?

A few reviews appearing on the Amazon page, and I though this was interesting on the preview page

I guess it must have a fair bit about the car crash shenanigans?

Edited October 16, 2023 by Stive Pesley

[Carl Sagan]

On 10/08/2023 at 18:23, Leeds Ram said:

I'm not going to buy this. Don't rate Conway as a journo; still remember his 'interview' with Eric Alonso, which amounted to nothing more than a puff piece with less interrogation than twitter managed to unearth. 

Perhaps I do him a disservice, but I always thought we drew the short straw getting Conway with The Athletic when other clubs had proper football people reporting on them. 

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

I guess that's a no?

A few reviews appearing on the Amazon page, and I though this was interesting on the preview page

I guess it must have a fair bit about the car crash shenanigans?

Only getting 3 out of 19 people you approach to comment for you, suggests the other parties felt similarly. None of the Amazon reviews are by verified purchasers.

[TuffLuff]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

I guess that's a no?

A few reviews appearing on the Amazon page, and I though this was interesting on the preview page

I guess it must have a fair bit about the car crash shenanigans?

I guess so! Although judging by Twitter it looks like Amazon may have buggered up the pre order and people are still waiting for books.

Im intrigued by it still but may wait a couple of weeks and see what the reviews say.

I think the preview probably shows the issue with doing something so quickly after that time. Yes you want people to speak whilst it’s fresh but no one there has anything to gain by being quoted in it and I imagine some who we’d want to hear something from are under NDA’s

Edited October 16, 2023 by TuffLuff

[Day]

4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

I guess that's a no?

A few reviews appearing on the Amazon page, and I though this was interesting on the preview page

I guess it must have a fair bit about the car crash shenanigans?

You have to admire the transparency, however with so many refusing to comment, it does leave you wondering what inside information is left to make the story worth reading.

I like Ryan as a person, had plenty of back and forth banter with him on Twitter, it just feels a bit too soon to relive that year without any real inside scoop as to what really went on.

[Bris Vegas]

On 13/10/2023 at 17:40, vonwright said:

Yep. Agree. I though Cocu would be brilliant, and he just wasn't. Maybe his brand of football wasn't suited to the Championship. Maybe it isn't suited to any team that isn't Barcelona, or the equivalent of Barcelona in other leagues (he's not exactly tearing up trees with Vitesse).

Rooney achieved much more with far fewer resources, surrounded by utter chaos and with a huge points deduction hanging over the club. Yet some people still think Cocu was a better manager.

There's more to management than a nice suit and an urbane manner. 

Also, I'm not sure about all this 'He was undermined by having to play Rooney'. Rooney wasn't great but he wasn't exactly terrible. When played in midfield he had some good games alongside Bird, and was key to Bird's development. I'm not sure he deserved to start every game on merit but Cocu's problems didn't begin and end with Rooney. He was here a long time. It just didn't work.

Rooney achieved much more with fewer resources? Erm, no he didn’t.

Bielik’s return coincided with a purple patch and then under Rooney we presided over a 9 game losing run and nearly got relegated (and that is with a fit Kazim and minus Rooney himself which was like playing with 10 men).

Nobody is saying Cocu would have gotten us promoted.

But we finished midtable (60+ points) the season before and players like Bird, Knight and Sibley were all better under Cocu than they were under Rooney.

Name me one good game Rooney had after Covid. The guy was an embarrassment.

Cocu was here for 15 months. He had to deal with the Keogh fiasco, constant rumours of Rooney taking his job, Mel, Bielik’s injury, Rooney’s presence post Covid and the loss of key players because Mel was done. He walked into an impossible job.

His work at PSV will be more than anything Rooney achieves in his managerial career.

[Cb1289]

I pre ordered the book ages ago but still hasn't arrived - hopefully it'll turn up soon!!

[Anon]

On 10/08/2023 at 08:27, The Key Club King said:

Not sure why there is all this love for Cocu. Nice bloke certainly, but we were woeful that year, should have been relegated, and the squad was far better and built under far fewer restrictions than the following year. Other than 2007/08 it was the worst I have seen Derby in 40 years of following them. 

We were woeful that year and should've been relegated. Phillip Cocu was in charge for just 11 games. There's no denial that it was a terrible start and I can't really defend Cocu on that front, but if it's the worst season you've seen in 40 years, it's 75% Rooney's fault.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Anon

[Stive Pesley]

10 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

I think the preview probably shows the issue with doing something so quickly after that time. Yes you want people to speak whilst it’s fresh but no one there has anything to gain by being quoted in it and I imagine some who we’d want to hear something from are under NDA’s

Yes, I'd say the lack of engagement from people he approached is definitely a combination of NDAs,  personal loyalties/friendships and that fact that a lot of them are still in the game and probably deem it wise not to burn any bridges. The idea that people refused to talk to him simply because he's not a good enough journalist is laughable

 

[TomTom92]

Cocu's football was horrendous, slow possession based football that would see us squander the couple of chances a game we'd get by trying to walk it in to the net. 

No denying he walked in at the wrong time, straight after FL but with none of the funding. But his second season was a disaster. 

Think as a general rule Rooney is looked upon in better light because A) He was a rookie manager whereas Cocu had a solid record with PSV and B) How he kept us together during the admin season. Speculation of course, but i'm not sure we'd have shown the same fight with Cocu as manager. 

[Adslegend]

14 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

I guess so! Although judging by Twitter it looks like Amazon may have buggered up the pre order and people are still waiting for books.

I had that issue with my preoder and even a couple of days ago there was no update for estimated delivery. I've now cancelled that order and ordered from another seller on amazon. 

[I have nothing to say]

39 minutes ago, Adslegend said:

I had that issue with my preoder and even a couple of days ago there was no update for estimated delivery. I've now cancelled that order and ordered from another seller on amazon. 

Same here, have re-ordered from Waterstones.

Edited October 17, 2023 by I have nothing to say
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