Referees

[uttoxram75]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

The only way to try and alleviate this is to bring better referees through. But seeing the stuff aimed at them and the way their integrity is questioned, well I guess there's not going to be a big queue of them waiting.

The only way you'd get better refs is by appointing ex-professional footballers.

[May Contain Nuts]

14 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

The only way you'd get better refs is by appointing ex-professional footballers.

We already get enough people trying to blame a referee for bias against them based on their place of birth though, don't we?

Putting an ex-pro player in charge of a game where there could be the slightest hint of bias due association with this club or that is surely asking for trouble.

It would have to be very carefully managed.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[uttoxram75]

1 minute ago, Kokosnuss said:

We already get enough people trying to blame a referee for bias against them based on their place of birth though, don't we?

Putting an ex-pro player in charge of a game where there could be the slightest hint of bias due association with this club or that is surely asking for trouble.

It would have to be very carefully managed.

Yes it would have to be carefully managed but as far as where refs are born i'm not sure, I know that Bobby Madley and Atwell cheated against us but i have no idea where either of them were born.

I assume it was out of wedlock.

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

The only way you'd get better refs is by appointing ex-professional footballers.

If true, which having listened to ex-pros commentate on games, seems most unlikely, why would they?

Anyway the fundamental flaw in all this, as well as the resources given to training refs, is that the scrutiny they are put under is immense and it is legitimised by the media. Untill we get back to the realisation that there can be not 100% correct decision, ever even with VAR - anytime their is a 'judgement call' it cannot be 100% either yes or no, the better it will be for referees.

Edited September 6, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Seaside Ram]

So when was the last time we had a big , wrong call go our way ?

I could probably list 10 we’ve been on the wrong end of in the last 2 years.

Yet folks STILL maintain we get refereed fairly and it’s just bad luck  !!!

[WestKentRam]

1 hour ago, Seaside Ram said:

So when was the last time we had a big , wrong call go our way ?

I could probably list 10 we’ve been on the wrong end of in the last 2 years.

Yet folks STILL maintain we get refereed fairly and it’s just bad luck  !!!

As I just posted on the Bolton thread related to a discussion there, we gained 2 points on 16/2/21 as the ref incorrectly ruled out a goal for Wycombe for offside when it wasn't. We still were down 8-9 points by the end of the season though with other decisions that went against us.

Ok, that was just outside your criteria of being in the last 2 years, but I'm sure we've not been on the wrong end of any decisions since then 🙂

[Ian Buxton's Bat]

I saw a stat from Prem League analysis that said, for a given season, a team that received a red card lost on ~59% of occasions (irrespective of the score at the time of the red).

For me, refs need to have some sort of traffic light system for decisions......greenish ones for 50/50's in the centre circle where consequences are fairly inconsequential.......orangish ones for things like pens and free kicks on edge of box.........and reddish ones for red cards where the consequences are more significant in the match and possibly over the season.

They have to be CERTAIN on the reds.

My reading of the incident on Saturday was that neither the ref or the lino was sure and the added 2 x half sures together to make 1.......whereas the appropriate way of doing it is either taking an average (average of 2 half sures = half sure) or multiplying them together (= quarter sure).

......or bring in a sin bin for 'probably a red'

[ram59]

It would be interesting to keep a record of potential points lost or gained this season. As the season goes on, you forget about earlier controversial referee performances, both ways.

I say potential, because it's very rare that you can categorically say that a decision or decisions have affected the result of a game. The exception being a game like Bristol Rovers away, when we lost 2 points due to a controversial penalty in the last seconds of the game.

Had we'd been given those penalties or Wildsmith not been sent off, we don't know that the result would have been different, we may have lost by 4 or 5 goals, even.

I can't think of any major errors, potentially affecting the results up to the Bolton game. So I would say that we're potentially up to 3 points down on the season so far.

 

[21CSchizoidRam]

27 minutes ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said:

I saw a stat from Prem League analysis that said, for a given season, a team that received a red card lost on ~59% of occasions (irrespective of the score at the time of the red).

For me, refs need to have some sort of traffic light system for decisions......greenish ones for 50/50's in the centre circle where consequences are fairly inconsequential.......orangish ones for things like pens and free kicks on edge of box.........and reddish ones for red cards where the consequences are more significant in the match and possibly over the season.

They have to be CERTAIN on the reds.

My reading of the incident on Saturday was that neither the ref or the lino was sure and the added 2 x half sures together to make 1.......whereas the appropriate way of doing it is either taking an average (average of 2 half sures = half sure) or multiplying them together (= quarter sure).

......or bring in a sin bin for 'probably a red'

or VAR?

[WestKentRam]

36 minutes ago, ram59 said:

It would be interesting to keep a record of potential points lost or gained this season. As the season goes on, you forget about earlier controversial referee performances, both ways.

I say potential, because it's very rare that you can categorically say that a decision or decisions have affected the result of a game. The exception being a game like Bristol Rovers away, when we lost 2 points due to a controversial penalty in the last seconds of the game.

Had we'd been given those penalties or Wildsmith not been sent off, we don't know that the result would have been different, we may have lost by 4 or 5 goals, even.

I can't think of any major errors, potentially affecting the results up to the Bolton game. So I would say that we're potentially up to 3 points down on the season so far.

 

As per other threads, I did this for the 20/21 season after getting the feeling prior to this, despite the cliche, it doesn't even itself out at the end of the season for us. I had us down 8-9 points for the 20/21 season overall. Of course it is open to my bias, but I only included game changing decisions and tried to link to media reports.

The other thing that has been pointed out to me, to be more accurate then I'd need to do this for all other clubs in the league as well to get an overall view of the alternative table at the end of the season. However, I've only a certain amount of time to devote/waste on this!

After the 20/21 season it became a bit depressing and I didn't keep a full record of critical decisions for and against us, but after last season when we had plenty against us I thought I'd do it again for this year.

I agree, the Bolton game is the only one so far this season that has had the outcome potentially affected, and it has gone in the first row in my spreadsheet for 23/24...

[The_Sheriff]

11 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Not guessed, but assumed (and assumed wrong). The ball hit Wildsmith in the chest/stomach, but his arm was out and he dived into the ball. You would have to have superhuman cognitive reasoning to see that in real time. I think 90% of refs give it as handball - 90% of the ground thought he handled it. 

There wasn’t even much of a protest from our players aside from Wildsmith - watching it on RamsTV it looked like a stonewall red card. It took a camera angle looking right down the barrel that proved it wasn’t, but you can’t blame the ref for that. It’s just one of those things. 

Assumed and guessed not a lot of difference in definition is there?

He either seen it or he didnt. 

You cant say its anything other then poor officiating when the ref didnt blow straight away so he wasnt sure and the linesman didnt flag so he clearly wasnt sure either.

Cant be guessing/assuming that somethings happened but unfortunately the officials did.

[cj9a408]

If we played better football we wouldn't need the referees decisions to get a result?

Just saying....

[WystonRam]

11 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

The only way you'd get better refs is by appointing ex-professional footballers.

Most ex players who are now pundits have near zero understanding of the laws of the game. 

[WestKentRam]

12 minutes ago, cj9a408 said:

If we played better football we wouldn't need the referees decisions to get a result?

Just saying....

The problem is that football is a low scoring game of fine margins. We would need to win each game by 2 or 3 clear goals to allow for decisions to potentially go against us and to be able to overcome this.

[ap04]

2 hours ago, Seaside Ram said:

So when was the last time we had a big , wrong call go our way ?

I could probably list 10 we’ve been on the wrong end of in the last 2 years.

Yet folks STILL maintain we get refereed fairly and it’s just bad luck  !!!

 

2023-24

Oxford h pen & red (Harris)

Oxford h Cashin 2nd yellow

2022-23

Cheltenham h 1-0 offside (M-L)

Accrington a Curtis red

Accrington a pen save Wildsmith off line

Ipswich a pen save Wildsmith off line

Accrington h 1-0 offside (Dobbin)

Accrington h pen (Woods)

Lincoln h 1-1 offside (Hourihane)

2021-22

Bournemouth h offside (Lawrence)

Birmingham a Lawrence red

Blackpool h Shinnie red

Reading a Curtis hand ball

Birmingham h 2-2 offside (Stearman)

Huddersfield a Ebosele 2nd yellow

Barnsley h 1-0 offside (Plange)

Coventry h Lawrence penalty

Swansea a Curtis hand ball

 

These are just the obvious, there are nearly 30 unclear or 50-50 ones too.

[Ramism]

I wonder how many decisions across every game are based on “I think he did” or i “think he didn’t”.

I suppose it’s easy to say referees shouldn’t think like that but obviously they do. We all do that when watching a game

[Ramism]

What I don’t understand is getting obvious decisions wrong. How can you get something that’s so clear so wrong 🤷‍♂️

[Ram-Alf]

12 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Yes it would have to be carefully managed but as far as where refs are born i'm not sure, I know that Bobby Madley and Atwell cheated against us but i have no idea where either of them were born.

I assume it was out of wedlock.

Madley admitted at a later date he got that decision wrong, He bailed out after his gaf on social media, He went to Norway, When in a bar my mate saw him who's now back in the UK and living in Heanor asked him about that decision, He said he sort of smiled and walked out of the bar with a female and never replied.

Atwell...he's just incompetent...ps I've no mates who've seen him...in a bar or any other establishment 😉

 

[DavesaRam]

13 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Not guessed, but assumed (and assumed wrong). The ball hit Wildsmith in the chest/stomach, but his arm was out and he dived into the ball. You would have to have superhuman cognitive reasoning to see that in real time. I think 90% of refs give it as handball - 90% of the ground thought he handled it. 

There wasn’t even much of a protest from our players aside from Wildsmith - watching it on RamsTV it looked like a stonewall red card. It took a camera angle looking right down the barrel that proved it wasn’t, but you can’t blame the ref for that. It’s just one of those things. 

But that additional camera angle also showed the ref staring right down the barrel. What on earth was he looking at? His EFL bung for showing the red and swinging the game?

[DavesaRam]

2 hours ago, ram59 said:

It would be interesting to keep a record of potential points lost or gained this season. As the season goes on, you forget about earlier controversial referee performances, both ways.

I say potential, because it's very rare that you can categorically say that a decision or decisions have affected the result of a game. The exception being a game like Bristol Rovers away, when we lost 2 points due to a controversial penalty in the last seconds of the game.

Had we'd been given those penalties or Wildsmith not been sent off, we don't know that the result would have been different, we may have lost by 4 or 5 goals, even.

I can't think of any major errors, potentially affecting the results up to the Bolton game. So I would say that we're potentially up to 3 points down on the season so far.

 

We’ve had 8 or 9 really good penalty shouts turned down this season, and we are only 5 matches into it.

If penalty shouts at each end of the pitch had been correct, we wouldn’t have been relegated (which is why the decisions were incorrect) and we would have made the play-offs last season.