Ipswich v Derby (A) Matchday Thread - ‘and it’s live’

[Dava75]

Only 1 point outside the play-offs after a dozen games - I’d have taken that back in June. Oh how peoples expectations rise and memories fade!!!

[Jimbo Ram]

5 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Actually the problem is with us playing him as CDM. He has always been better playing further forwards, and comes alive when that happens. 
 

As is “the Derby Way”, knowing where a player performs best, we play him somewhere else. Bird, Sibley, Barkhuisen, NML, Vydra until his last half season, Kinkladze,  and so the list goes on. We’ve done this for years and years.

When are we going to get your full match report Dave ?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

He never said Clowes had publicly demanded promotion. He quite rightly made the observation that in sacking a manager who had us in 7th place after a substanial rebuild, it would be bizarre to bring a new manager to comfortably accept a position below that mark. Warne has to achieve top 6 as a minimum or this season is a failure - the club & the media constantly harp on about his promotion record, thats why he's here.

Clearly you're on a mission to dampen down expectation but this point is going to be constantly brought up this season. I'd also warn you that this style of football is going to fast alienate a significant proportion of the fanbase who want us to play good football. Often heard from his fans on here that he would adapt his style to better quality players at Derby but I've seen no evidence of that so far. He in fact has just imposed his style on players ill-suited to his Rotherham demands.

I don't think it's reasonable to attach so much weight to being 7th when PW took over from LR. That was after 9 games, 5 of which were at home and we hadn't managed an away win (or goal).

Had we played more games, the more credible would have been the argument that LR got us to 7th and any subsequent manager improved on that or blew a promising position (although certainly even PW acknowledged it was a decent position for him to start from). 

Had we played even fewer games, the less credible it would be. You could say the same about Rotherham's position in the Championship. If they end up surviving on goal difference (having not survived in the Championship in their last 2 times), is that a successful season under their new manager, or did he blow it having taken over from PW with the club in 8th place and having suffered only one defeat?

I think it's true that Clowes has picked someone who's ideally a fast-track-to-the-Champ manager, but what's all the talk about instilling a culture if not an indication that some long-term planning and changes are required and that PW is seen as the man to do that? I think the second priority outweights the first, for Clowes, and I would go along with that.

Plus, for me, as good as some of LR's summer signings were, we are nowhere near the strength of squad to be too critical of results or even performances yet (and I would argue that performances at Cambridge and Accrington were as good as Ipswich was not). PW has noted too that we don't have those "peak of career" players - we have a (mostly) good crop of youngsters and a lot of experienced and talented older players. I don't know how much we'll be able to do in the transfer window, but surely it's after the opportunity to add to/change personnel that it becomes fairer to judge PW's results and performances.

I hear the argument about it being the wrong style for the players we've got. This may be true, but there are two other considerations:

1) How much of a leap is it to tweak the player to the preferred style? (open question)

2) Does it make more sense to shape the general style, then bring in the square pegs in square holes when we're able to, to slot straight in, rather than having to start all over again with a new way of playing because THEN we'll have the right players?

[Jimbo Ram]

2 minutes ago, jameso said:

I don't think it's reasonable to attach so much weight to being 7th when PW took over from LR. That was after 9 games, 5 of which were at home and we hadn't managed an away win (or goal).

Had we played more games, the more credible would have been the argument that LR got us to 7th and any subsequent manager improved on that or blew a promising position (although certainly even PW acknowledged it was a decent position for him to start from). 

Had we played even fewer games, the less credible it would be. You could say the same about Rotherham's position in the Championship. If they end up surviving on goal difference (having not survived in the Championship in their last 2 times), is that a successful season under their new manager, or did he blow it having taken over from PW with the club in 8th place and having suffered only one defeat?

I think it's true that Clowes has picked someone who's ideally a fast-track-to-the-Champ manager, but what's all the talk about instilling a culture if not an indication that some long-term planning and changes are required and that PW is seen as the man to do that? I think the second priority outweights the first, for Clowes, and I would go along with that.

Plus, for me, as good as some of LR's summer signings were, we are nowhere near the strength of squad to be too critical of results or even performances yet (and I would argue that performances at Cambridge and Accrington were as good as Ipswich was not). PW has noted too that we don't have those "peak of career" players - we have a (mostly) good crop of youngsters and a lot of experienced and talented older players. I don't know how much we'll be able to do in the transfer window, but surely it's after the opportunity to add to/change personnel that it becomes fairer to judge PW's results and performances.

I hear the argument about it being the wrong style for the players we've got. This may be true, but there are two other considerations:

1) How much of a leap is it to tweak the player to the preferred style? (open question)

2) Does it make more sense to shape the general style, then bring in the square pegs in square holes when we're able to, to slot straight in, rather than having to start all over again with a new way of playing because THEN we'll have the right players?

So do we stick with the current system until January when we currently haven’t got the players to implement it…open question ?

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, Tyler Durden said:

Not at all I still believe that reaching the playoffs this season is within our gift. 

How significant is a significant proportion of our fanbase? Again that's your opinion but you're touting it as fact. No need to warn me as frankly it's not a concern for me even it might but true but again is conjecture and pure speculation on your part. 

Folks can bring anything up that's their prerogative - but just bear in mind that the more time they regurgitate the same line it doesn't add any more weight or make it any more valid than the first time it was mentioned - merely just serving to repeat the same entrenched viewpoint ad infinitum.

No, my opinion about our fanbase's expectations of playing style was not presented as a fact. It is an informed opinion based on watching different Derby teams over a fair few years and observing the obvious disdain at football served up by likes of Gary Rowett & Phil Brown. Remember the Rowett season saw noticeable supporter unrest despite us being in & around the top 6 for all of that season. In contrast the teams of McClaren, Burley & Jim Smith are fondly remembered despite the first two also not achieving promotion like Rowett.

Glad you agree about realistic playoff ambitions & am sure we'll revisit that as the season progresses.

[nottingram]

Just now, LeedsCityRam said:

No, my opinion about our fanbase's expectations of playing style was not presented as a fact. It is an informed opinion based on watching different Derby teams over a fair few years and observing the obvious disdain at football served up by likes of Gary Rowett & Phil Brown. Remember the Rowett season saw noticeable supporter unrest despite us being in & around the top 6 for all of that season. In contrast the teams of McClaren, Burley & Jim Smith are fondly remembered despite the first two also not achieving promotion like Rowett.

Glad you agree about realistic playoff ambitions & am sure we'll revisit that as the season progresses.

As with most teams really I ultimately think people won’t mind if we are winning games. I remember in the full Rowett season there was a lot of goading when he signed his new contract in the January. The unrest started when the results turned.

I think when your teams play football like Rowett’s there is nothing to fall back on when results turn. I think that is the case more so than when passing football is played but probably not by much.

You can sometimes look at a defeat and say “we played well” but my gut feeling is we will not be able to do that much with Warne because the playing well is in the winning. How important that is I don’t know!

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, LeedsCityRam said:

No, my opinion about our fanbase's expectations of playing style was not presented as a fact. It is an informed opinion based on watching different Derby teams over a fair few years and observing the obvious disdain at football served up by likes of Gary Rowett & Phil Brown. Remember the Rowett season saw noticeable supporter unrest despite us being in & around the top 6 for all of that season. In contrast the teams of McClaren, Burley & Jim Smith are fondly remembered despite the first two also not achieving promotion like Rowett.

Glad you agree about realistic playoff ambitions & am sure we'll revisit that as the season progresses.

It's an opinion though which you agree with or more accurately a generalisation - would stop at calling it a gross generalisation as you used the word significant rather than majority to your credit which would have been totally ott.

I'd never bracket Phil Brown and Gary Rowett together but again that's my opinion.

The crux of this is you're not going to please all the people all the time whatever the outcome is, we may have been alienating a significant portion of the fanbase by persisting with Rosenoir and so on. 

Still think Top 6 is achievable I just don't get the total overreaction from last night. Or maybe should get it having been on this forum for so long it's sometimes hard to understand even with that. 

[Jimbo Ram]

2 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It's an opinion though which you agree with or more accurately a generalisation - would stop at calling it a gross generalisation as you used the word significant rather than majority to your credit which would have been totally ott.

I'd never bracket Phil Brown and Gary Rowett together but again that's my opinion.

The crux of this is you're not going to please all the people all the time whatever the outcome is, we may have been alienating a significant portion of the fanbase by persisting with Rosenoir and so on. 

Still think Top 6 is achievable I just don't get the total overreaction from last night. Or maybe should get it having been on this forum for so long it's sometimes hard to understand even with that. 

Can you just answer the question, do we stick with 3 at the back with wing backs?

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

So do we stick with the current system until January when we currently haven’t got the players to implement it…open question ?

Can I play the politician and answer your question with a question? (not that one, the next one ?)

What is the system that we should be playing in the meantime? (does anyone know?)

Also, how many new players are needed to fit the PW system?

 

OK, now I'll behave and try to answer from my opinion: yes, I think we should mostly stick with the way PW wants to play.

I think Collins (when well behaved) and Knight fix a lot that wasn't working last night.

I think the back 3 works best for our players anyway (we don't have a good enough right-back and we have three - arguably five - good centre-halves... most of the time). I think Barkhuizen and NML have been fine at WB - not brilliant, and in the case of NML not as effective as he was at RW, but still fine. (Barkhuizen wasn't at all good last night, but that's one match). We could recruit better suited players for those positions, I don't doubt it.

The Hourihane-Bird issue is not specific to PW's style and on the whole Bird has looked better under PW than he did under LR. 

Similarly, last night both Osula and Dobbin looked like they couldn't trap a bag of cement. They didn't look like that at Accrington. Sometimes players don't play well, for whatever reason. I saw good team performances at Cambridge and Accrington and enjoyed the style. I don't see that the PW system is a problem, but I do see that our squad is neither large enough nor varied enough to give us a real fighting chance (with any system) as things stand right now.

Over to you @Jimbo Ram - what do you say?

Edited October 22, 2022 by Guest
to add words "good enough" since we do have Oduroh!

[DavesaRam]

A couple of responses: to Crewton - you are wanting a retrospective red card for the challenge on Smith, and quite rightly so. But the only retrospective red card I know of was on Big Dave during the Billy Davies promotion show, which was heavily influenced by Karen Brady, who happened to be on the board of our promotion rivals Birmingham City at the time. And it derailed our season, limiting us to play-offs instead of automatic promotion. So its not going to happen.

And to Jayram, who wanted Rosenior to be given a little more time. He’s been here for years, arriving under Cocu IIRC, and our “bore the opposition into defeat” has been with us all that time, with Liam being the common denominator, so sadly we were never going to improve with him involved - we had got as good as we were going to, which wasn’t good enough.

Oh- and once again I advocate our shirt manufacturers use velcro for the shirt seams. Then McGoldrick would have ended up shirtless in their area, with an undeniable penalty claim, and McGoldrick booked for removing his shirt!

Edited October 22, 2022 by DavesaRam

[LeedsCityRam]

6 minutes ago, jameso said:

I don't think it's reasonable to attach so much weight to being 7th when PW took over from LR. That was after 9 games, 5 of which were at home and we hadn't managed an away win (or goal).

Had we played more games, the more credible would have been the argument that LR got us to 7th and any subsequent manager improved on that or blew a promising position (although certainly even PW acknowledged it was a decent position for him to start from). 

Had we played even fewer games, the less credible it would be. You could say the same about Rotherham's position in the Championship. If they end up surviving on goal difference (having not survived in the Championship in their last 2 times), is that a successful season under their new manager, or did he blow it having taken over from PW with the club in 8th place and having suffered only one defeat?

I think it's true that Clowes has picked someone who's ideally a fast-track-to-the-Champ manager, but what's all the talk about instilling a culture if not an indication that some long-term planning and changes are required and that PW is seen as the man to do that? I think the second priority outweights the first, for Clowes, and I would go along with that.

Plus, for me, as good as some of LR's summer signings were, we are nowhere near the strength of squad to be too critical of results or even performances yet (and I would argue that performances at Cambridge and Accrington were as good as Ipswich was not). PW has noted too that we don't have those "peak of career" players - we have a (mostly) good crop of youngsters and a lot of experienced and talented older players. I don't know how much we'll be able to do in the transfer window, but surely it's after the opportunity to add to/change personnel that it becomes fairer to judge PW's results and performances.

I hear the argument about it being the wrong style for the players we've got. This may be true, but there are two other considerations:

1) How much of a leap is it to tweak the player to the preferred style? (open question)

2) Does it make more sense to shape the general style, then bring in the square pegs in square holes when we're able to, to slot straight in, rather than having to start all over again with a new way of playing because THEN we'll have the right players?

Some fair points there. With respect to appraising Rosenior, thats all the time he got so unfortunately thats the sample size & hence the benchmark some will apply. I'd also add the context of our chaotic summer & last minute recruitment that makes that position look even better & attracted media confusion as to why he didnt get the full time gig. I'd also have to accept however that some will point to our away record (also a small sample size) as part of that.

As to your last points about building a style within a club in League One, I believe you need to be pragmatic until you have suitable players available. Some players can improve to a certain extent, for instance Curtis Davies has improved on the ball since Rooney & Rosenior were at the club (last night excepted!) but at this level, players tend to have some dominant skills but are weak in other areas. At the top level, players have a more of an 'all court' skillset which is what they need to adapt to the nuanced ways of crowbarring results at the top level.

The contrast between Rosenior's style & Warne's is so large, I think a hybrid would be wise at this stage. Improve fitness of the players by all means but forcing high tempo football on them this quickly results in the kind of scattergun passing, technique & quality we saw last night. They're not capable of it currently although they may be in 2/3 months time allied with suitable January incomings. 

[Hector was the best]

3 minutes ago, jameso said:

Can I play the politician and answer your question with a question? (not that one, the next one ?)

What is the system that we should be playing in the meantime? (does anyone know?)

Also, how many new players are needed to fit the PW system?

 

OK, now I'll behave and try to answer from my opinion: yes, I think we should mostly stick with the way PW wants to play.

I think Collins (when well behaved) and Knight fix a lot that wasn't working last night.

I think the back 3 works best for our players anyway (we don't have a right-back and we have three - arguably five - good centre-halves... most of the time). I think Barkhuizen and NML have been fine at WB - not brilliant, and in the case of NML not as effective as he was at RW, but still fine. (Barkhuizen wasn't at all good last night, but that's one match). We could recruit better suited players for those positions, I don't doubt it.

The Hourihane-Bird issue is not specific to PW's style and on the whole Bird has looked better under PW than he did under LR. 

Similarly, last night both Osula and Dobbin looked like they couldn't trap a bag of cement. They didn't look like that at Accrington. Sometimes players don't play well, for whatever reason. I saw good team performances at Cambridge and Accrington and enjoyed the style. I don't see that the PW system is a problem, but I do see that our squad is neither large enough nor varied enough to give us a real fighting chance (with any system) as things stand right now.

Over to you @Jimbo Ram - what do you say?

"Osula and Dobbin looked like they couldn't trap a bag of cement". Needs addressing. 

[TuffLuff]

Out of interest has anybody seen the penalty that was given back? It all seemed a bit…well I wasn’t sure what went on really, just saw another player over acting to get a decision (which seems a given in league 1)

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Dava75 said:

Was at the game last night. Ipswich were the best team without the ball that we have faced all season. Aggressive and sharp.

 

 

Yep to true Dava, An over the top tackle(red card)taking our players shirt off in the penalty area, And a player in Morsey who had the referee in his pocket.

All without a ball ? 

[Jimbo Ram]

2 minutes ago, jameso said:

Can I play the politician and answer your question with a question? (not that one, the next one ?)

What is the system that we should be playing in the meantime? (does anyone know?)

Also, how many new players are needed to fit the PW system?

 

OK, now I'll behave and try to answer from my opinion: yes, I think we should mostly stick with the way PW wants to play.

I think Collins (when well behaved) and Knight fix a lot that wasn't working last night.

I think the back 3 works best for our players anyway (we don't have a right-back and we have three - arguably five - good centre-halves... most of the time). I think Barkhuizen and NML have been fine at WB - not brilliant, and in the case of NML not as effective as he was at RW, but still fine. (Barkhuizen wasn't at all good last night, but that's one match). We could recruit better suited players for those positions, I don't doubt it.

The Hourihane-Bird issue is not specific to PW's style and on the whole Bird has looked better under PW than he did under LR. 

Similarly, last night both Osula and Dobbin looked like they couldn't trap a bag of cement. They didn't look like that at Accrington. Sometimes players don't play well, for whatever reason. I saw good team performances at Cambridge and Accrington and enjoyed the style. I don't see that the PW system is a problem, but I do see that our squad is neither large enough nor varied enough to give us a real fighting chance (with any system) as things stand right now.

Over to you @Jimbo Ram - what do you say?

I think we need a system and style of play that suits our players. I want to play to our strengths, with NML and Barks being used to get at teams. With what we have I would go 433 and sign an out of contract right back now. Fozzy comes in as left back, Knight (when fit), Smith and Sibley in midfield and NML, Barks and Collins up top. Osula, McGoldrick and Dobbin to come in as required. Simples ?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Hector was the best said:

"Osula and Dobbin looked like they couldn't trap a bag of cement". Needs addressing. 

Haha, the comment or the ball control issue?!

As I said, they were much better than that at Accrington, and Osula has a decent touch judging from the limited game time he's had so far.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

I think we need a system and style of play that suits our players. I want to play to our strengths, with NML and Barks being used to get at teams. With what we have I would go 433 and sign an out of contract right back now. Fozzy comes in as left back, Knight (when fit), Smith and Sibley in midfield and NML, Barks and Collins up top. Osula, McGoldrick and Dobbin to come in as required. Simples ?

Collins up top on his own (unless you have NML/Barkhuizen/Sibley much closer to him than under LR) didn't work so well from what I saw.

I can help you with the out of contract right back (still contracted but I don't work Saturdays)

Do you not see any signs of PW's system already working? What did you think of the other 2 away performances under him?

[Alph]

I don't know how people can say it wasn't that bad. 

Derby couldn't string passes together. There was no possession in midfield. Very little possession in the final third. I can't remember any touches in Ipswich's penalty area. Every crossing opportunity was wasted. 

It was just possession along the back before dropping it behind their defence for someone to chase. And that ball was almost always a straight one that ran to their keeper. 

Maybe Warne will be good. Maybe Derby will win every game for the rest of the season. But that was definitely crap and if Ipswich had drawn it then they'd be heartbroken. They were pretty wasteful themselves and the only thing Derby did ok was defend their area 

A cobbled together team going to a top side in the league may well not be expected to win. But string a few passes together, chuck in a meaningful attack and put something in the area that looks hopeful isn't too much to ask. If you don't do that you should be fuming with your performance

[S8TY]

8 hours ago, Jourdan said:

People are kidding themselves if they think that tonight would have been any better under Rosenior.

The truth is that it was a poor game that was won and lost on individual battles, not tactics or style of play. On another day we might have ground out a 0-0 and moved on to the next.

Ipswich are the quintessential League 1 team. They are capable of mixing it up. They know when to play and when to scrap and they demonstrated this to reasonable effect tonight. They have a blend of physicality, bite, power, athleticism, size and speed that allows them to be highly competitive, but in real terms, they only scored through an absolute gift.

For us, it’s still a time of discovery and understanding what we can do and what we cannot in the current parameters. Warne didn’t cover himself in glory tonight and that performance will have certainly fanned the flames of discontent. However he’s learning about these players all the time and tonight will have told him a lot.

Bird and Sibley never got going. Osula and Dobbin barely got a sniff. We are hugely reliant on young players and in truth, we needed all of them to be on it to win tonight and all four of them got comfortably dealt with in their match ups. It will likely happen again in the weeks and months ahead if we choose to count on them.

Wildsmith, Cashin, Chester and Smith were all solid, but it matters little when the other seven miss the mark so greatly. Mendez-Laing and Barkhuizen offered no quality or composure, a problem that was rampant across the team and ultimately magnified with Davies who made the match-turning mistake.

What worries me is that for everyone saying we should be a footballing side, there was little evidence of anything that is synonymous with a footballing side. That doesn’t disappear in the space of 4-5 weeks. You either have it or you don’t.

What we might have to come to terms with is that this squad doesn’t really suit any particular style and that in fact, many of them are not as good as we build them up to be.

You’re right in some areas but for me wrong in others …. I don’t think any team in league1 would fancy having NML running at them all game but here’s a thing let’s make him wing back so he spends more time in our half …barks is a good player also not a wingback Bird makes the odd pass and he’s a class act in some peoples eyes ..he’s a good player yes but needs taking out of the side now and again …we missed Knight of course and we are a bit of a mish mash in terms of where we are with our newly formed squad but this is where I just don’t get it …why bring a manager in and expect him to make a team play like his previous team with essentially very different players …IMO our team is 433 all day long with NML and Barks and I can’t see Didzy playing much so why get him at all? We need to un earth some young ish talent or this side will not make promotion and Davies has been immense but I feel for him because we need legs and I’d play Roberts 

I just feel that although we all got excited by our new signings we are desperately short of what Warne wants so he has to adapt and change the 352 because last night made me feel quite sad seeing us basically offering very little against a side that I think are decent but should not be that far in front of us that we don’t offer some decent shots on target …long season ahead and we go again 

[Oldben]

There are currently eight former Premier League clubs competing in League One, namely Barnsley (1997–98), Bolton Wanderers (1995–96, 1997–98 and 2001–12), Charlton Athletic (1998–99 and 2000–07), Derby County (1996–2002 and 2007–08) Ipswich Town (1992–95 and 2000–02), Milton Keynes Dons as Wimbledon (1992–2000), Portsmouth (2003–10), and Sheffield Wednesday (1992–2000).

Apart from Derby, none have significant restrictions on transfer fees.

None have derbys lack of senior team completion, we are several players short of our senior team being at the max we are allowed.

The other teams even had the advantage of having no delay in starting their summer transfer process.

In the summer, we almost didn't exist as a team.

Pw has experiencing promoting Rotherham on a very low budget, 3 times from league one.

I never expected instant promotion, but I do believe pw is the right manager for us at this time.

My statements about formation are not based on serious football insight. They're based on football writers who understand the game far better than I.

Ipswich played 343, and the recommended formation to beat that is 442.

Does pw have a strategic scout who attends games on derbys behalf and creates a sound strategy to help guide the manager.

I know we lost our football analyst this year, as they rooney in the USA. Rooney could see the value of having a football analyst. We are not financial restricted on staff recruitment, and I'm aware we are seeking a head of recruitment, but what about a football analyst or a scout who gives us insight on upcoming games.

I think the teams we are competing against have this added advantage already.

When lr was our manager, I raised a criticism about lr not changing tactics/formation during games to try and win the game.