Paul Warne appointed as Head Coach

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

But I just really can’t get on board with the idea that whatever formation/coaching were implemented by any manager, that it would get us much further up the league table than where we are with the current squad

I think we have a good squad, capable of pushing for the play off positions but lacking the blend of player type/positions/age and depth to really push on and dominate the league.

Sorry just to pick out these couple of lines (I'm not dismissing the the overall post at all), but you've inadvertently hit on the main frustration, I think.

It isn't 'much further' up the league we need to be it's 1 place. An extra 2 points would see us above Peterborough and in a play-off spot as things stand and it's the way some poor game management feels to have made all the difference in us not getting an  - eminently achievable - extra 4, 5 points that irks.

We're 12 points behind Barnsley and they've got a game in hand - I don't think people are expecting us to be at that level, but a handful of extra points and I think the majority of 'complainers' would say that's fair enough.

It reminds me of the season we nearly went down with Rooney in charge and had the horrendous run at the end, we ended up needing the last day draw with Sheff Weds (probably the most stressful game I've ever watched) but there were so many games we contrived to lose points in when just 2 more would have seen us feeling a lot more comfortable.

Dominating the league isn't a realistic objective and again I don't think anyone (being honest with themselves) has ever expected that,  certainly not this season and probably not next.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Blondest Goat]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

This might be my biggest opposing view to a number of posters. I absolutely see and understand the concerns with how Warne is utilising the squad (or not as it comes to certain players/rotations/substitutions) and also with how poor performances have been of late. 

But I just really can’t get on board with the idea that whatever formation/coaching were implemented by any manager, that it would get us much further up the league table than where we are with the current squad, other than perhaps one of those top top level ones such as a Pep/Klopp/Mourinho/Ancelotti if I stepped into fantasy for a minute. 
 

I don’t think we have the right balance or blend of players in the squad. We do have a solid goalkeeping department. We have a capable enough defensive unit which is lacking specialised right backs and, I feel,  players in the right age profile, there’s also a lack of physicality and athleticism at times. Whether we play 4 or 3 at the back there are opportunities to improve that area with time and recruitment. We do have talented central midfielders, all of whom are similar in size, build, style of play and I think we would benefit from a different presence in the middle of the park to complement one or two of Bird/Knight/Sibley/Hourihane. I don’t feel the combination of those players alone allows us to mix it up against different styles of opponent. A player we own out on loan is the sort I mean, Bielik sitting in midfield with Knight to do the box to box role and a Hourihane/Bird/Sibley as the playmaker would be a much better balance for a 3 man midfield.

Forward options are good, NML and McGoldrick on their day are unplayable. Barkhuizen is a solid option at this level and championship. Dobbin offers raw pace and dribbling ability but lacks composure at times. Collins is Collins, an honest enough pro with determination in abundance but limited in other ways. 
 

I think we have a good squad, capable of pushing for the play off positions but lacking the blend of player type/positions/age and depth to really push on and dominate the league. Which is how it’s played out. Performances definitely could have been better, but the make up of the squad has been the hindrance all season. Under Rosenior we missed a couple of winnable games which if McGoldrick was available we would probably have won. Under Warne we went on a great run, then the wheels came off. At times the squad has worked really well, at others the limitations have been a big problem. 

I do think Warne could have been using the players he does have better to rest and rotate, he does have limited or stubborn tactical views it seems, but I don’t think we’d be much higher up the league than where we are due to the squad’s strengths and limitations. All too aware that’s my opinion and others don’t necessarily share it. 

Do you think Peterborough have a better squad than us?

Edited April 18, 2023 by Blondest Goat

[Oldben]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

No arguments with the overall point, but the issue for me is that the wingbacks in a 352, and to a lesser extent the wider centre halves, are *really* specialised positions.  You have to have very specific types of players for those positions to make the entire system work.  You can't just chuck a winger at wingback because they can't defend well enough, and it ends up cramping their attacking (as we can see with NML etc), and you can't just chuck a normal fullback there because they aren't good enough going forwards (again, we're seen this with Roberts).  Likewise with the wider centre halves, you can't just chuck a big physical centre half there (like Cashin or Davies) because they have to mobile enough to deal with quick wingers when they come out wide to support the wingback, they basically need to be hybrid fullback/centre-halves (which is why Roberts, Forsyth, Rooney etc have been effective there for us).

To make a 352 really work you have to go all-in on it and get specific players for those roles, and then you're locked into it.  You can't just switch to a back 4 because your wingbacks aren't good enough defensively to play fullback, or good enough going forwards to play as a winger.  Not to mention that the more specialised a player you're looking for, the smaller market you're shopping in, so it's harder to get those players in the first place.  To me, we're much better off with a back 4, and then you're reasonably free to move the rest of the team around (442/4231/433/whatever) depending on what you've got.  Pretty much ever player knows how to play in those systems, so it's much easier to get in the types of players you want.  Plus AFAIK the academy are playing something along those lines too, so there's a much cleaner path to the first team.

Hm ... by your logic Rotherham had really specialised players that pw used to win promotion. Players that were just fantastic at what they did.

I agree with you on the potential to sign players that might better fit a 352 remit being small.

[Caerphilly Ram]

4 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

Do you think Peterborough have a better squad than us?

I think the balance and blend of their squad is better than ours. I think our squad has better individual players than theirs but is lacking in blend and balance. It’s not a simple “this or that” in my view, that’s what I’m trying to articulate. 

[MadAmster]

Posh have what looks like an easy ride this evening at Accrington. After that it's Ipswich, Bristol Rover and Barnsley. I see them getting between 4 and 6 points from their last 4. That leaves us wanting between 6 and 8 points from 4 games if we don't improve our GD which is 1 less than theirs. Can we do it? It's a hard ask but we are Derby and we never do things the easy way. 

We have to beat Exeter and Burton and get a point off Pompey. All achievable you'd think but we have just 5 points from the last 5 games. Edge of the seat stuff again. Would we have it any other way?

[ram59]

I think that a lack of urgency was created for the January transfer window, by our results at the time. Warne made it clear that he wouldn't be forced into signing players that didn't improve the squad that he had then. A number of those squad players have had a dip in form since and if Warne was given the opportunity to add to the squad now, I think that he would be prepared to set his sights a little lower.

[vonwright]

6 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Posh have what looks like an easy ride this evening at Accrington. After that it's Ipswich, Bristol Rover and Barnsley.

Might depend a lot on whether Barnsley have any shot at automatic in that last game.

If not you wouldn't blame them for resting a few for the play-offs.

[Caerphilly Ram]

21 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

Sorry just to pick out these couple of lines (I'm not dismissing the the overall post at all), but you've inadvertently hit on the main frustration, I think.

It isn't 'much further' up the league we need to be it's 1 place. An extra 2 points would see us above Peterborough and in a play-off spot as things stand and it's the way some poor game management feels to have made all the difference in us not getting an  - eminently achievable - extra 4, 5 points that irks.

We're 12 points behind Barnsley and they've got a game in hand - I don't think people are expecting us to be at that level, but a handful of extra points and I think the majority of 'complainers' would say that's fair enough.

It reminds me of the season we nearly went down with Rooney in charge and had the horrendous run at the end, we ended up needing the last day draw with Sheff Weds (probably the most stressful game I've ever watched) but there were so many games we contrived to lose points in when just 2 more would have seen us feeling a lot more comfortable.

Dominating the league isn't a realistic objective and again I don't think anyone (being honest with themselves) has ever expected that,  certainly not this season and probably not next.

Perhaps “dominating the league” was a poor choice of words. 
I was looking to articulate my own view that the squad’s limitations, along with Warne’s approach at times, and other factors are the reasons I feel we haven’t got those one or two extra points. 
Lots of people pointing the finger at Warne and the current bad run, I feel it’s a bigger picture than that. The standard 46 game season started back in July with that game against Oxford and ends away to Sheff Weds on 7th May. I feel we can blame the current run for not being secure in the play off positions as much as we can blame not winning away at Shrewsbury or Fleetwood in August, somehow failing to score at Charlton and losing to a sucker punch etc. 

As I keep stating, I’m not absolving Warne of blame, it’s a collective responsibility of Warne, Rosenior, the various coaches and players throughout the season to accumulate points, we’ve done that at stages and failed to at others, the squad limitations are a big factor in that for me. As is Warne’s game management of late. I simply don’t think it’s one specific problem. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram

[vonwright]

10 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I think the balance and blend of their squad is better than ours. I think our squad has better individual players than theirs but is lacking in blend and balance. It’s not a simple “this or that” in my view, that’s what I’m trying to articulate. 

I sort-of agree with this, but it isn't just about the blend of players in the squad. 

There's also the way in which the manager blends the players he has at his disposal.

There's no point trying to make a paella if you've only got the ingredients for a chicken stew.

I look at our squad, and our rivals' squads, and can't help thinking someone could have made a really good chicken stew.

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 minute ago, vonwright said:

I sort-of agree with this, but it isn't just about the blend of players in the squad. 

There's also the way in which the manager blends the players he has at his disposal.

There's no point trying to make a paella if you've only got the ingredients for a chicken stew.

I look at our squad, and our rivals' squads, and can't help thinking someone could have made a really good chicken stew.

For sure. Warne seemed to be cooking up a lovely stew for a while, then he ran out of the chicken (Bird) and it became a bit of an Irish Stew with Knight, Hourihane, Collins and McGoldrick in there….I’ve lost the analogy I was building on top of yours, sorry! 😆 

I share the frustrations with how Warne has utilised the squad at times, I’m just a bit more objective in how it makes me feel overall I guess. I can see what he’s trying to do at times, and I’m baffled by what he’s doing at others. There are points this season when he’s got it right, there are times he’s got it very very wrong. I’m sort of sat on the fence a bit about the whole thing, still Warne in and want him to have time, but growing concerns about his tactical stubbornness/limitations. 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

This might be my biggest opposing view to a number of posters. I absolutely see and understand the concerns with how Warne is utilising the squad (or not as it comes to certain players/rotations/substitutions) and also with how poor performances have been of late. 

But I just really can’t get on board with the idea that whatever formation/coaching were implemented by any manager, that it would get us much further up the league table than where we are with the current squad, other than perhaps one of those top top level ones such as a Pep/Klopp/Mourinho/Ancelotti if I stepped into fantasy for a minute. 

The majority of our squad was brought in by LR to play a possession game, The owner turned to PW who has a different ethic or appears to have than LRs.

PW is on record as saying the players have bought into his method...well...they're not going to say anything else really are they 🤷‍♀️

We've been told it's a family thing with the players, They all get on, I would imagine Sibley has fallen out with the head of the family since his 2 goals against Oxford, Hourihane not happy being subbed on HT against Fleetwood, Barkhuizen not sure whether he's going to start, Forsyth lost his place to young Rooney...I don't think it's all sweetness and candy at Moor Farm and it won't be until PW gets his men in and moves others out.

The PR we're being fed has worked to a degree as PW comes across as honest as can be, His halo slipped a little after the BR game and "feel cheated" comment, The pressure if there's any is starting to surface, And when that happens mistakes will be made.

It's about time others started to be on the score sheet other than McGoldrick  

[jimtastic56]

How badly do you think Warne wants to go up this season? He has a terrible record in the Championship.  Next summer he won’t be able to bring in top quality players because of the restrictions , so we would go straight into a relegation dog fight. Imagine if we lost the first 5 games in the Championship ? He would be toast. I think he really wants to succeed here , so much better to have another season in L1 to build a side/ system.

[May Contain Nuts]

7 hours ago, Papahet said:

Where the heck is Stearman?!

Teaching the rest of our defenders how to master the art of throwing yourself into tackles you can't win, leaving yourself stranded upfield because you don't have the pace to get back?

[IslandExile]

1 hour ago, jimtastic56 said:

How badly do you think Warne wants to go up this season? He has a terrible record in the Championship.  Next summer he won’t be able to bring in top quality players because of the restrictions , so we would go straight into a relegation dog fight. Imagine if we lost the first 5 games in the Championship ? He would be toast. I think he really wants to succeed here , so much better to have another season in L1 to build a side/ system.

He says he woke at 4 am and couldn't sleep thinking what he could do to affect a victory.

And, that's how it should be......always strive to finish as high as possible. Never try to avoid promotion.

As for next season and bringing in players, cross that bridge (if &) when you get to it.

[Kernow]

3 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

How badly do you think Warne wants to go up this season? He has a terrible record in the Championship.  Next summer he won’t be able to bring in top quality players because of the restrictions , so we would go straight into a relegation dog fight. Imagine if we lost the first 5 games in the Championship ? He would be toast. I think he really wants to succeed here , so much better to have another season in L1 to build a side/ system.

Not quite sure any manager would have that mindset. You could quite easily say well what if we get off to a bad start next season in League 1. "Blowing" a play-off place and then starting poorly would be worse. Getting promoted in not even your first season when you haven't been able to sign a single player would probably be his career highlight so far.

For what it's worth, I think another season in League One where we can build more realistically under our restrictions, rather than having to scrap around and likely struggle next season will stand us better in the long run, but I don't think Warne will be happy if we don't go up this season.

[Caerphilly Ram]

Credit to Warne and his staff for their part in the result last night. Before the game a few questioned the lineup, and a few of the recent concerns were present regarding patterns of play and a clear plan for the side in the first half. Whatever was said at half time seems to have contributed to a much improved performance in the second half with better passing, movement, confidence and intent from the side, similar to the first half at home to MK Dons. 
Does/should he stick with that same side at home to Burton? We could really do with building back to a 90 minute performance and carrying momentum into these final 3 (hopefully 6) games. 

[Premier ram]

5 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Credit to Warne and his staff for their part in the result last night. Before the game a few questioned the lineup, and a few of the recent concerns were present regarding patterns of play and a clear plan for the side in the first half. Whatever was said at half time seems to have contributed to a much improved performance in the second half with better passing, movement, confidence and intent from the side, similar to the first half at home to MK Dons. 
Does/should he stick with that same side at home to Burton? We could really do with building back to a 90 minute performance and carrying momentum into these final 3 (hopefully 6) games. 

Yes mate , Warney had it spot on last night , more of the same Saturday COYR

[May Contain Nuts]

17 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

Yes mate , Warney had it spot on last night , more of the same Saturday COYR

Almost. It still took them scoring a goal before he made changes to see the game out effectively, which should have been made before Exeter even had chance to kick off.

Hopefully yesterday's second half was a Rowettesque lightbulb moment. When things were looking grim that season he suddenly realised he could make good use of Johnson & Jerome (who'd at that point had been written off as a donkey by many) and it was onward to the play-offs.

Better late than never though, both in terms of the match and in terms of our season.

Yesterday was also similar to our home game earlier in the season against Wycombe. A change of shape & personnel lead to a ropy first half where none of the players seemed to know quite what they were doing (because there wasn't chance to fully practice it) but they got to grips with it in the second half and 2 pieces of class from Hourihane (a nice curling strike from outside the box and a good finish inside it later on) sealed the win.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[MackworthRamIsGod]

Playoffs could be decided on goal difference, do Saturday would be a great time to finally give someone a good hiding.

 

[Premier ram]

1 minute ago, Kokosnuss said:

Almost. It still took them scoring a goal before he made changes to see the game out effectively, which should have been made before Exeter even had chance to kick off.

Hopefully yesterday's second half was a Rowettesque lightbulb moment. When things were looking grim that season he suddenly realised he could make good use of Johnson & Jerome (who'd at that point had been written off as a donkey by many) and it was onward to the play-offs.

fair point , but the lads on the pitch were comfortable up until their goal , can understand no changes up until that point