Paul Warne appointed as Head Coach

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

I'm not looking forward to next year in the slightest; the fundamental problem is that his teams aren't fun to watch. They're not dynamic, entertaining, or particularly systematic apart from 'cross into the box when we've flooded it with players, use the flanks plenty, and run lots'.

That is not a fundamental problem. For one, that's an entirely subjective point and I find when we are playing a direct style and moving the ball quickly that is can be pretty entertaining. Plenty of games this season that I have enjoyed watching. Crossing, getting players into the box and running a lot is the basis of a lot of very good teams. Absolutely no issues with that. 

 

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

We should have been hiring the man with the vision and nous to take us back to the premier league, not just someone who can get us out of league 1. Given the size of the club and the budget, even in our crippled state, any half-decent manager could get us up within 2 or 3 years tops. This is why the Warne experiment will not be defined on if he can get us out of this league but on what shape he'll get us in to for the championship. 

This is arrogant. There are a lot of good clubs that have been stuck in league one for years, it's no guarantee you get promoted even with a larger budget. We had a large budget in the Championship, it didn't work. It's mindless to just assume league one promotion is a given and pretend like it is an easy league to get out of. If Warne gets us up and then it becomes necessary to part ways, that is still a success. First and foremost, we have to get out of league one. Size of the club means absolutely nothing. Budget means more, but we aren't at liberty to actually spend it presently. 

[JustOneBiblicalKazim]

3 minutes ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

Apart from that he’s done alright. 😂

Haha I actually do think he’s done okay, and I genuinely like him, it may seem like I’m moaning but I just have some gripes, I just think that some of our current issues were avoidable, it was clear our squad was going to tire, we should’ve done more to try and slow that down.

Edited April 16, 2023 by JustOneBiblicalKazim

[Premier ram]

18 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

i dont think its unreasonable of a manager to want his players to leave everything out on the pitch, should be a minimum requirement in fact

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Premier ram said:

i dont think its unreasonable of a manager to want his players to leave everything out on the pitch, should be a minimum requirement in fact

Players are still human beings though, there's a limit as to how much effort they can actually produce.  If you look at a Guardiola team, for example, they also press really aggressively, but they can afford to do that because when they win the ball back, they keep it for 50 passes and let the other team chase it.  We literally do the opposite - press aggressively, win it back, then give it away again so we have to start all over.  It's the good old "work smarter, not harder" thing - so much of the effort we put in is just wasted by immediately lumping a big ball over the top back to their keeper. 

[May Contain Nuts]

4 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

i dont think its unreasonable of a manager to want his players to leave everything out on the pitch, should be a minimum requirement in fact

Even when it leaves you nothing in the tank for the next game, in which you're expected to play 90 minutes at full-pelt, and then the next game, and then the next even though you can't physically keep up with those demands?

Would you have had Chris Martin - or this season David McGoldrick - running around like a headless chicken, running after long balls down the channels and chasing lost causes rather than acting as a pivot to all our good moves, thus taking him out of the scoring positions from which he netted 76 times for us?

Maybe John Eustace shouldn't have concentrated on keeping position, making interceptions and laying it off to Hughes/Hendrick/Bryson and instead roaring around the pitch snapping into tackles (and missing most of them) ala Graeme Shinnie?

[On the Ram Page]

15 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

i dont think its unreasonable of a manager to want his players to leave everything out on the pitch, should be a minimum requirement in fact

 

6 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Players are still human beings though, there's a limit as to how much effort they can actually produce.  If you look at a Guardiola team, for example, they also press really aggressively, but they can afford to do that because when they win the ball back, they keep it for 50 passes and let the other team chase it.  We literally do the opposite - press aggressively, win it back, then give it away again so we have to start all over.  It's the good old "work smarter, not harder" thing - so much of the effort we put in is just wasted by immediately lumping a big ball over the top back to their keeper. 

Just like Liverpool & Man City style - but they have better players

[Leeds Ram]

12 hours ago, Andicis said:

That is not a fundamental problem. For one, that's an entirely subjective point and I find when we are playing a direct style and moving the ball quickly that is can be pretty entertaining. Plenty of games this season that I have enjoyed watching. Crossing, getting players into the box and running a lot is the basis of a lot of very good teams. Absolutely no issues with that. 

 

This is arrogant. There are a lot of good clubs that have been stuck in league one for years, it's no guarantee you get promoted even with a larger budget. We had a large budget in the Championship, it didn't work. It's mindless to just assume league one promotion is a given and pretend like it is an easy league to get out of. If Warne gets us up and then it becomes necessary to part ways, that is still a success. First and foremost, we have to get out of league one. Size of the club means absolutely nothing. Budget means more, but we aren't at liberty to actually spend it presently. 

Fundamental problems, or what are perceived as fundamental problems outside of a statistical setting, are often defined by an evaluation of the problem itself. I would argue for Warne at Derby the style of play that he's incorporated and seeks to incorporate in the future means his tenure is going to be rocky at best. When we're winning, people will tolerate it; after all, who doesn't like winning? But when we struggle, people will turn more quickly, as we're seeing here, which gives Warne much less wriggle room.  I haven't enjoyed any since the 5-0 win against Morecambe that I've seen, which was all the way back in February now. 

If we spend more than three years in this division, that is ultimately a failure for a club of this size and stature. It's not arrogant to say that with our resources and our facilities at this level that the objective of every season should be promotion either via the playoffs or automatically.  The fact that there have been bigger clubs who have been down here for a few seasons doesn't invalidate my point in that regard. In many cases, they've been horribly mismanaged, and even when that's been the case, they've oftentimes been close to promotion. I believe when appointing a manager, we should have been looking towards the person who we think can be a success in the championship. In Warne, I don't believe we have that at all. 

Of course, I hope I'm wrong, and if I'm wrong, I'll admit it. What makes me nervous is in the next transfer window we end up with a squad of league 1 cloggers who'll need replacing in the championship when this experiment goes south. By giving Warne a 4 year deal we've locked ourselves in with a bloke with no success outside of this division, a division that is not our natural home and one we want to escape from asap.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[Premier ram]

44 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Players are still human beings though, there's a limit as to how much effort they can actually produce.  If you look at a Guardiola team, for example, they also press really aggressively, but they can afford to do that because when they win the ball back, they keep it for 50 passes and let the other team chase it.  We literally do the opposite - press aggressively, win it back, then give it away again so we have to start all over.  It's the good old "work smarter, not harder" thing - so much of the effort we put in is just wasted by immediately lumping a big ball over the top back to their keeper. 

fair point mate, either way right or wrong Warne had to get the fitness levels up

[Gerry Daly]

Give him all of next season then judge 

[RoyMac5]

"He (White) was genuinely upset as I would be if I was a player on loan," he said. "Having come on and through no fault of his own given away a penalty, he's probably thinking he's run over a voodoo doll or something.

"He was visibly upset after the game because you go from not an amazing performance but a win a way from home, nobody cares, get home it's a brilliant three points.

"He feels he has played a massive part in that downfall. I can see why he thinks that because he has in fairness to him.

"It's the referee's decision but he gave him a decision to make, that's the sad thing. I can see he has been fouled but my issue is further down the pitch when we have a throw-in.

"If you stand near me you might hear me but we had a throw in their final third and let them out too easy. It drives me insane.

"They hit a diagonal, they get a throw, they recycle it, they cross it, penalty. I left Harvey on Saturday, but I texted him on Sunday to say 'How are you?'

"He said 'Alright gaffer, what do you think I should have done differently?' I sent him the video I have of my angle. It shows he could have maybe got in a position quicker, even though I don't think it's a penalty.

"It's gone now. It's all part of the learning curve. That's why Premier League clubs like sending their players out on loan because they are the educational parts that you don't get in training.

"He's fine and he's ready to play a part tomorrow."

 

 

[Premier ram]

21 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

How did we manage to go from positive passing football with 28 shots on goal against MK Don's to not being able to pass to each other against Bristol Rovers? Do we have a tired squad or not? Are the players incapable or are they playing to very different orders game by game? 

you think they are been ordered to not pass to each other?

[Andicis]

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

Fundamental problems, or what are perceived as fundamental problems outside of a statistical setting, are often defined by an evaluation of the problem itself. I would argue for Warne at Derby the style of play that he's incorporated and seeks to incorporate in the future means his tenure is going to be rocky at best. When we're winning, people will tolerate it; after all, who doesn't like winning? But when we struggle, people will turn more quickly, as we're seeing here, which gives Warne much less wriggle room.  I haven't enjoyed any since the 5-0 win against Morecambe that I've seen, which was all the way back in February now. 

If we spend more than three years in this division, that is ultimately a failure for a club of this size and stature. It's not arrogant to say that with our resources and our facilities at this level that the objective of every season should be promotion either via the playoffs or automatically.  The fact that there have been bigger clubs who have been down here for a few seasons doesn't invalidate my point in that regard. In many cases, they've been horribly mismanaged, and even when that's been the case, they've oftentimes been close to promotion. I believe when appointing a manager, we should have been looking towards the person who we think can be a success in the championship. In Warne, I don't believe we have that at all. 

Of course, I hope I'm wrong, and if I'm wrong, I'll admit it. What makes me nervous is in the next transfer window we end up with a squad of league 1 cloggers who'll need replacing in the championship when this experiment goes south. By giving Warne a 4 year deal we've locked ourselves in with a bloke with no success outside of this division, a division that is not our natural home and one we want to escape from asap.

To begin, fan support is a dubious barometer for success. Fans are increasingly impatient and don't have access to the full picture, and therefore they shouldn't be heavily relied upon. People aren't going to support what you would deem to be attractive football if it wasn't winning either, so that's really just boils down to your preference. 

Question, how much are we able to spend within our business plan? Can you outline in any meaningful way what our resources actually are? I can't. So unless I've missed a major piece of information, I would imagine that you are also guessing? We have good facilities, but if you can't bring in good players that only helps to a limited extent. I'd also be disappointed if we aren't up in three years, but we're in year one. It's a tough league. It's not just that every other big club was mismanaged, it's just difficult and you become a target to beat. 

I mean what do you expect, seriously? We aren't going to attract championship promotion quality players. We're in league one, we'll attract lower champ/league one players. We aren't just going to go and get these amazing players that will be good at championship level also whilst under a business plan and in league one. Of course some will need replacing, but they aren't going to get huge salaries so is it really the end of the world? I suggest realism is needed.

[Leeds Ram]

53 minutes ago, Andicis said:

To begin, fan support is a dubious barometer for success. Fans are increasingly impatient and don't have access to the full picture, and therefore they shouldn't be heavily relied upon. People aren't going to support what you would deem to be attractive football if it wasn't winning either, so that's really just boils down to your preference. 

Question, how much are we able to spend within our business plan? Can you outline in any meaningful way what our resources actually are? I can't. So unless I've missed a major piece of information, I would imagine that you are also guessing? We have good facilities, but if you can't bring in good players that only helps to a limited extent. I'd also be disappointed if we aren't up in three years, but we're in year one. It's a tough league. It's not just that every other big club was mismanaged, it's just difficult and you become a target to beat. 

I mean what do you expect, seriously? We aren't going to attract championship promotion quality players. We're in league one, we'll attract lower champ/league one players. We aren't just going to go and get these amazing players that will be good at championship level also whilst under a business plan and in league one. Of course some will need replacing, but they aren't going to get huge salaries so is it really the end of the world? I suggest realism is needed.

If the fans as a collective turn on the manager, it is generally game over for them. Whilst you should not predicate a managerial appointment on what the fans think, fan support and opinion cannot be totally ignored either. If you play what is deemed unattractive football, which sits in contrast to how we have generally played for the last decade, then a manager will have a more difficult time bringing fans along if things aren't going well. We saw the extremities of this reality with Nigel Pearson. 

As far as I am aware, we are able to spend around £8,000 a week as a maximum on players. I've seen some estimates from other posters on here, such as Ghost of Clough, which I believe have us at an estimated 7-10 million a year for wage expenditure across the board, although I may be misremembering. That would put us in the top 6 clubs in the division going off past years for our wage spend. There is no doubt we are spending more than the bottom half of clubs, such as Bristol Rovers, Exeter, Shrewsbury etc., for our playing and coaching staff. 

We have brought in good players. We brought in top-level players at this level over the summer who, it is rumoured, rejected contracts from teams in the division above to come play here. Sheffield Wednesday, Sunderland, Bolton, Coventry, and Charlton have all been horribly mismanaged over the years, which resulted in a couple of them even knocking around in the 4th tier of football for a bit. I don't know enough about Ipswich to comment on that particular case. It's not denying it's a tough league to get out of, but it is one we should be getting out of, and we should be expecting to do that within a couple of years; with our resources and pull, a decent manager should be able to do it.

Pretending this is our natural level and looking at a short-term appointment to simply get us out of this division without one eye on progression from the championship is, in my book, poor planning. I would expect the assembly of a squad where the spine can compete in the next division. Again, looking to a long-term plan of managing not just next season but also the season after. Teams like Coventry in recent years have shown this can be done with minimal expenditure. My fear with Warne is his record in the championship, which, to put it bluntly, sucks. I'm more than a little nervous that we'll get his squad in place and spend the next few years yoyoing between the championship and this division because of Warne's limitations. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

1 hour ago, Premier ram said:

you think they are been ordered to not pass to each other?

If the instruction is to go long at every opportunity. Then yes, potentially. Failing that Bristol rovers were just too good for us..... You tell me? 

Edited April 17, 2023 by The Scarlet Pimpernel

[IlsonDerby]

On 16/04/2023 at 11:42, Premier ram said:

Reading a lot of this , in which way did Warne get it horribly wrong ? we were seconds from an admittedly smash and grab away victory

He got it wrong by allowing a team 10 places below us to play us off the park for 85 minutes. 👍🏻

22 hours ago, Andicis said:

People who are calling for Warne to go aren't using their heads. We're under a business plan. We cannot afford to get rid of the manager and won't be able to for the duration of the business plan, so get used to it. 

Further, I don't see how you can judge a manager based on a mixed up squad of people near retirement age and young players without much experience. He hasn't been able to bring anyone in. Judge him when he has his own team. 

Do you honestly, honestly, believe what we’re currently being served up is the best we could hope for with the current players? 
 

I think there are plenty who would get more out of this team. We are in exactly the same position as when he took over but with the benefit of the team having an extra 6 months training and playing together. 

[IlsonDerby]

 

beggars belief that we’re being gas lit into thinking that this is all we could possibly hope for with our cobbled together squad of Cashin, Knight, Sibley, Bird, Hourihane, Wildsmith, McG, NML, Barkhuizen, Dobbin, Roberts… he’s not stuck with a team of non leaguers ffs.

[Premier ram]

3 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

He got it wrong by allowing a team 10 places below us to play us off the park for 85 minutes. 👍🏻

Do you honestly, honestly, believe what we’re currently being served up is the best we could hope for with the current players? 
 

I think there are plenty who would get more out of this team. We are in exactly the same position as when he took over but with the benefit of the team having an extra 6 months training and playing together. 

please tell me who in your opinion would of got more out of this squad and come here under the restrictions we are tied to

[IlsonDerby]

3 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

please tell me who in your opinion would of got more out of this squad and come here under the restrictions we are tied to

Rosenior was one off the top of my head but this is a s**** argument. I’m not a club owner, I’m not a CEO, how should I know who is available within the game?? 
 

What I will say is we built a squad of good technical players and then decided to bring in a football terrorist to manage them… 

[Jubbs]

10 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

He got it wrong by allowing a team 10 places below us to play us off the park for 85 minutes. 👍🏻

22 hours ago, Andicis said:

And the funny thing is, whenever we actually attacked we tore them apart pretty easily. It didn't even take 5 minutes to open them up and score, yet we never did it again. The reason? Because from 5 minutes onwards we sat back and defended. Embarrassing tactics. Rovers more than tripled the amount of passes we completed.

 

9 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

beggars belief that we’re being gas lit into thinking that this is all we could possibly hope for with our cobbled together squad of Cashin, Knight, Sibley, Bird, Hourihane, Wildsmith, McG, NML, Barkhuizen, Dobbin, Roberts… he’s not stuck with a team of non leaguers ffs.

But but they're old and knackered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[Jubbs]

3 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Rosenior was one off the top of my head but this is a s**** argument. I’m not a club owner, I’m not a CEO, how should I know who is available within the game?? 

Also another point people make, about having a "League 1 expert" in charge. Here's recent promotions from League 1.

Currently:
Plymouth - Steven Schumacher - First permanent managerial job, first full season.
Ipswich - Kieran McKenna - First senior managerial job, first full season.

21/22:
Wigan - Leam Richardson - Second managerial job, first job in over 9 years, promoted in his first full season.

20/21:
Blackpool - Neil Critchley - First senior managerial job, first season.

So what's this about needing a manager who "knows his way out of the division"?