Gotta love Extinction Rebellion

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Citation needed

From what I understand, the XR movement came from the Occupy lot and are under the umbrella of Compassionate Revolution

CR are an anti-establishment campaign group looking to force systemic change via peaceful, mass civil disobedience

Their literature states

Now I've read dozens of posters on here stating that they don't think we have a functioning democracy. In fact it's probably the one belief that unites us all. 

Fair enough if people disagree with their tactics, but what would you suggest as an alternative? 

I don't always disagree with their tactics but I'm starting to think that we won't see any change unless there is a mass people-led movement against the current system

Maybe once gas & electric bills are £4k per year and there isn't enough food to go round, people might start to think they haven't much left to lose...

Problem is the 4 k energy bills would be a total snip if these people had they’re way tomorrow and that’s if you could even get energy supply ,the truth is our technology and infrastructure is nowhere near what’s required to stop us returning to the semi dark ages and now they want to destroy the food chain next,

im all for change and a better more sustainable world ( could happen without greed ) but it has to be planned and balanced not just throw the masses who aren’t hugely wealthy to the wolves ,, that’s why I despise these current extremist nut jobs without the first thought in they’re heads about the chaos that would ensue if they’re childlike naive demands were met 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Archied

[Carl Sagan]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Citation needed

From what I understand, the XR movement came from the Occupy lot and are under the umbrella of Compassionate Revolution

CR are an anti-establishment campaign group looking to force systemic change via peaceful, mass civil disobedience

Their literature states

Now I've read dozens of posters on here stating that they don't think we have a functioning democracy. In fact it's probably the one belief that unites us all. 

Fair enough if people disagree with their tactics, but what would you suggest as an alternative? 

I don't always disagree with their tactics but I'm starting to think that we won't see any change unless there is a mass people-led movement against the current system

Maybe once gas & electric bills are £4k per year and there isn't enough food to go round, people might start to think they haven't much left to lose...

I'm saying Extinction Rebellion is not about climate change - that's a facade - and you seem to be agreeing with me that it's instead simply an anti-establishment movement. 

Here's the founder of Extinction Rebellion, Gail Bradbrook, in her own words explaining she was always into "mass social disobedience" and initially tried to start an animal rights movement and then a nonpayment-of-tax movement. Then she went to Costa Rica for two weeks and took a shedload of drugs. She came home to the UK, ended her marriage and separated from her family, and met the other founder Roger Hallam who "is an academic who specialised in radical campaign design". https://www.whatisemerging.com/opinions/psychedelics-and-social-change

Co-founder Roger Hallam was studying for a PhD in civil disobedience at King's College and came up with the branding. In his words, "It seemed enormously clear to me that the most effective way to bring about rapid political change was mass, non-violent civil disobedience". Again he's interested in political change, not climate change. He continues, "I did a paper called Pivoting to the Real Issue in January 2013, which proposes that we create a rebellion against the British government on civil resistance principles and that led to the foundation of Extinction Rebellion ... the plan for XR took about a year and a half of research and conversations, so it didn’t come out of nowhere. It wasn’t like Occupy where there was no pre-organisation. We had twenty or thirty people involved in designing a modern social movement." https://metacpc.org/en/hallam/

These aren't nice people. He's loathed in Germany for his dismissal of the Holocaust: https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-extinction-rebellion-nothing-matters-to-this-doomsday-cult/a-51355706

With your additional questions you also seem to be advocating for an anti-establishment revolution, similarly with nothing to do with climate change. The reason for the high energy bills you mention are nothing whatsoever to do with climate change. If I've misunderstood your post then you seem to be making the error of logic I pointed out in my earlier post that, just because climate change is having an effect on the UK doesn't mean what we do in the UK can have an effect on climate change.

Do we have a functioning democracy? That's surely a whole other question.

[Stive Pesley]

15 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

With your additional questions you also seem to be advocating for an anti-establishment revolution, similarly with nothing to do with climate change. The reason for the high energy bills you mention are nothing whatsoever to do with climate change. If I've misunderstood your post then you seem to be making the error of logic I pointed out in my earlier post that, just because climate change is having an effect on the UK doesn't mean what we do in the UK can have an effect on climate change.

Not so much advocating - i'm just saying that I don't see how it will change any other way. To quote Bill Hicks

Quote

The problem isn't a lack of money food water or land. The problem is that you've given control of these things to a group of greedy psychopaths who care more about maintaining their own power than helping mankind

 

[Carl Sagan]

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Not so much advocating - i'm just saying that I don't see how it will change any other way. To quote Bill Hicks

 

Indeed we use that same quote in a book I've coauthored on decentralization. But I think it's a lie for Extinction Rebellion to pretend the primary reason for it is to do with climate change when it's about overthrowing "the system".

[maxjam]

This clip isn't XR related per se, but the 'green' decisions that our Governments have made over the past few decades are now coming home to roost. 

The bottom 20%+ of earners are quite literally facing financial armageddon this winter.  As for the rest of us, some may be able to ride out the coming storm better than others, but things are going to hurt.  Food, goods and services are all going to increase in price substantially unless something significant happens in the meantime. 

Whilst we all have sympathy with the green agenda and would like to do more, the infrastructure to do so simply isn't there.  Furthermore, whatever actions we do take, as mentioned earlier in the thread, are being instantly dwarfed by 'progress' elsewhere in the world.  

As I have shown in previous posts, the lowest earners produce the least CO2 but are being impacted the most by the green agenda.  This year many will die for it, others financially crippled by it - inevitably receiving criminal records for simply trying to stay warm/eat, all whilst the rich and famous fly on their private jets to COP27 and tell the rest of us how awful we all are.

Even if XRs antics were genuine, they disrupt the wrong people in the wrong countries. 

 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Whilst we all have sympathy with the green agenda and would like to do more, the infrastructure to do so simply isn't there.  Furthermore, whatever actions we do take, as mentioned earlier in the thread, are being instantly dwarfed by 'progress' elsewhere in the world.  

As I have shown in previous posts, the lowest earners produce the least CO2 but are being impacted the most by the green agenda.  This year many will die for it, others financially crippled by it 

I've never understood why we, as consumers have to pay the "green levy" - surely it should be levied against the companies making the billions in profit! 

I read a good article the other day about how the UK could be self-sufficient in energy production by now if it had invested in tidal generator infrastructure when it was first suggested 30 odd years ago, but the oil lobby blocked it. The UK is perfectly placed to use tidal power being a relatively large island with the 12th longest coastline in the world, plus we have very strong tides (unlike say the mediterranean). 

 

 

[Highgate]

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

This clip isn't XR related per se, but the 'green' decisions that our Governments have made over the past few decades are now coming home to roost. 

The bottom 20%+ of earners are quite literally facing financial armageddon this winter.  As for the rest of us, some may be able to ride out the coming storm better than others, but things are going to hurt.  Food, goods and services are all going to increase in price substantially unless something significant happens in the meantime. 

Whilst we all have sympathy with the green agenda and would like to do more, the infrastructure to do so simply isn't there.  Furthermore, whatever actions we do take, as mentioned earlier in the thread, are being instantly dwarfed by 'progress' elsewhere in the world.  

As I have shown in previous posts, the lowest earners produce the least CO2 but are being impacted the most by the green agenda.  This year many will die for it, others financially crippled by it - inevitably receiving criminal records for simply trying to stay warm/eat, all whilst the rich and famous fly on their private jets to COP27 and tell the rest of us how awful we all are.

Even if XRs antics were genuine, they disrupt the wrong people in the wrong countries. 

 

Maybe a windfall tax on the brazenly profiteering fossil fuel industry could pay for the financial assistance needed by all those families that will struggle with energy bills this winter.  In fact it would more than pay for it.  The Green Levies are there for a reason, to help build the renewable energy infrastructure that is so urgently needed.  At least that's what they should be for.

We live in a world where our addiction to fossil fuels is literally killing us (rather than any green energy levies), destroying our atmosphere and climate, damaging our health and threatening to make parts of our world practically uninhabitable due to drought or actually inundated by rising sea levels.  And yet according to the IMF the fossil fuel industry is subsidized by $11 million dollars every minute.  I get the feeling, given the climate crisis, we could be spending that money more wisely. 

The UK has reduced it's GHG emissions in recent decades there is no doubt about that.  Much of the reduction is obviously thanks to the building up of the renewable energy sector, most notably onshore wind.  But the reduction is also due to the switch from coal power plants to gas and the fact that a lot of manufacturing moved overseas.  Another factor is the very contentious practice of classifying imported biomass as carbon neutral, which in reality it's anything but.  That's a sneaky trick that helps a number of countries CO2e balance sheet look healthier than they should in reality. But nevertheless,  even accounting for this the UK still emits 425 Million Tonnes CO2e per year.   That's clearly not sustainable.

There is obviously a very real concern about what other countries will or will not do to tackle climate change but the UK, like any other country, can only really concentrate on getting it's own house in order, and not use inaction elsewhere as an excuse for inaction at home. Clearly there is still a very long way to go before the UK reaches a carbon neutral economy, but it is a country that is well placed to be one of the world leaders if it so wishes and to reap the environmental, health and economic rewards of doing so. 

As for XR.  I really don't know their motivation of those involved but I do confess that I worry that their methods may be counterproductive in the long run.  People often seem more interested in discussing the futility of such protests rather than discussing possible solutions to the, all too apparent, climate emergency than is actually unfolding around us. 

 

[Highgate]

24 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I've never understood why we, as consumers have to pay the "green levy" - surely it should be levied against the companies making the billions in profit! 

I read a good article the other day about how the UK could be self-sufficient in energy production by now if it had invested in tidal generator infrastructure when it was first suggested 30 odd years ago, but the oil lobby blocked it. The UK is perfectly placed to use tidal power being a relatively large island with the 12th longest coastline in the world, plus we have very strong tides (unlike say the mediterranean). 

 

 

Would they simply pass the levies onto the customers through increased prices ?

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Highgate said:

Maybe a windfall tax on the brazenly profiteering fossil fuel industry could pay for the financial assistance needed by all those families that will struggle with energy bills this winter.  In fact it would more than pay for it.  The Green Levies are there for a reason, to help build the renewable energy infrastructure that is so urgently needed.  At least that's what they should be for.

We live in a world where our addiction to fossil fuels is literally killing us (rather than any green energy levies), destroying our atmosphere and climate, damaging our health and threatening to make parts of our world practically uninhabitable due to drought or actually inundated by rising sea levels.  And yet according to the IMF the fossil fuel industry is subsidized by $11 million dollars every minute.  I get the feeling, given the climate crisis, we could be spending that money more wisely. 

The UK has reduced it's GHG emissions in recent decades there is no doubt about that.  Much of the reduction is obviously thanks to the building up of the renewable energy sector, most notably onshore wind.  But the reduction is also due to the switch from coal power plants to gas and the fact that a lot of manufacturing moved overseas.  Another factor is the very contentious practice of classifying imported biomass as carbon neutral, which in reality it's anything but.  That's a sneaky trick that helps a number of countries CO2e balance sheet look healthier than they should in reality. But nevertheless,  even accounting for this the UK still emits 425 Million Tonnes CO2e per year.   That's clearly not sustainable.

There is obviously a very real concern about what other countries will or will not do to tackle climate change but the UK, like any other country, can only really concentrate on getting it's own house in order, and not use inaction elsewhere as an excuse for inaction at home. Clearly there is still a very long way to go before the UK reaches a carbon neutral economy, but it is a country that is well placed to be one of the world leaders if it so wishes and to reap the environmental, health and economic rewards of doing so. 

As for XR.  I really don't know their motivation of those involved but I do confess that I worry that their methods may be counterproductive in the long run.  People often seem more interested in discussing the futility of such protests rather than discussing possible solutions to the, all too apparent, climate emergency than is actually unfolding around us. 

 

And yet the Great Barrier Reef that we we were told was being destroyed is growing and in the best shape it’s been for decades , where’s the acid rain ? Where’s the next ice age we were heading to? 
the planet and all of us on it are going to die in the next five minutes mantra has been and is being used stupidly and being fixated on by those lucky enough to not have real pressing problems in they’re lives that have to be dealt with,

we live in an age where drama and crisis has become an addiction, we live in an age where mental health has become a badge that people are desperate to wear ,contrary to popular belief there are plenty of people and situations where the best advise is to work on toughening up because at times it’s the best we can do to get through stuff, look at r vardy claiming poss ptsd,, ffs ptsd is the soldier seeing horror all around himself , the fireman pulling dead bodies from a fire , the police and ambulance personnel pulling dead bodies from car wrecks , it’s great we are looking to talk and help each other more now when at times we are struggling to cope but not everything is mental health , lots of the time it can changed by changing our attitudes to life because believe it or not life can at time be bloody hard work 

people really need to get a grip ,,, yes we need change but balanced ,though out , planned change ,,, not lurching from one stupid policy/ plan to another, will say it again , where’s the real study on the real impact of scrapping all fossil fuel cars for battery powered ones in this headlong rush , what’s the impact on the planet ? Where’s the power comming from to charge them all and still provide the energy we use and need already? 
call me stupid but I firmly believe the take make throw away , the plastics in landfills and oceans is a far bigger threat than this carbon neutral mantra and it is an area we can do lots about , carbon neutral policy at this point seems more geared to money generating take make throw away more of the same policy than anything balanced and good for the planet

Edited August 11, 2022 by Archied

[Ram-Alf]

11 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

The reason the dinosaurs went extinct is because they didn't have a space programme.

 

It wasn't for the want of trying, Circa 65 million years ago they tried when a meteor crashed into earth( Chicxulub)and those around the area at the time were shot into Space.

[Carl Sagan]

3 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

It wasn't for the want of trying, Circa 65 million years ago they tried when a meteor crashed into earth( Chicxulub)and those around the area at the time were shot into Space.

Haha! The other day I was experimenting with AI-generated art (might start a thread on it) and I was trying to get it to give me a picture of the dinosaurs watching the Chicxulub meteor in the sky and it actually gave me this, with dinosaurs indeed being shot into space.

[Stive Pesley]

11 hours ago, Highgate said:

Would they simply pass the levies onto the customers through increased prices ?

Definitely - if the utilities remain privatised It's just one more reason why the whole thing needs to be back in public ownership

 

11 hours ago, Highgate said:

People often seem more interested in discussing the futility of such protests rather than discussing possible solutions to the, all too apparent, climate emergency than is actually unfolding around us.

Indeed - it feels like we're at a point where human nature is to cling to the belief that "everything will be alright" and criticise anyone who even tries to suggest a better way. 

Also - do people really believe that the current efforts in parliament to curb our right to protest is a good thing???

It's almost like they know that mass civil unrest is just around the corner

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Stive Pesley

[BaaLocks]

On 21/07/2022 at 06:20, Archied said:

Sorry ,just doesn’t work , we are either all in this together or we are not , you can’t have the ordinary mass being nailed to the cross and the rich / lucky / privileged tearing the ass out of standards they expect / preach / force others to live by , you either want to change the world and how we live or you don’t , 

You've obviously not been watching the Tory leadership debates then??????? As one person described, this is the 'Olympics of Evil' in play and the perfect illustrator of why it is hard to challenge the extreme actions of the likes of Extinction Rebellion. The 'system' both doesn't want to listen to long term needs but also just doesn't know how to react. And, shamefully, the "I'm alright Jack" mantra spread in both UK and USA by the parties in power (and I'd still argue the Republicans are the real power in the US. Wade Roe anyone?), coupled with the isolationist philopsohies of China and Brazil, really leaves you struggling to see any positive signs of how we are going to prevent this. Sadly, since COP-26 I think this has almost spread an increased resistance to listen, something along the lines of "but we're clearly doomed anyway so why should we even bother".

But, again sadly, my personal view is that it won't be CO2 emissions that will get us in the end, but it will be biodiversity. Pesticides, plastics and deforestation will have a much more (and totally irreversible) dramatic tipping point than climate (though the two are obviously connected). 

TLDR: once the bees go, we are toast

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

TLDR: once the bees go, we are toast

I hand-pollinate my chilis.

Got one plant with over 100 finger chilis on it at the moment.

Screw the bees.

[BaaLocks]

8 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I hand-pollinate my chilis.

Got one plant with over 100 finger chilis on it at the moment.

Screw the bees.

80% of all pollination is undertaken by honey bees. You're going to need to cancel any upcoming appointments.

[Wolfie]

15 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I hand-pollinate my chilis.

Got one plant with over 100 finger chilis on it at the moment.

Screw the bees.

Filthy beast

[Highgate]

10 hours ago, Archied said:

And yet the Great Barrier Reef that we we were told was being destroyed is growing and in the best shape it’s been for decades , where’s the acid rain ? Where’s the next ice age we were heading to? 
the planet and all of us on it are going to die in the next five minutes mantra has been and is being used stupidly and being fixated on by those lucky enough to not have real pressing problems in they’re lives that have to be dealt with,

we live in an age where drama and crisis has become an addiction, we live in an age where mental health has become a badge that people are desperate to wear ,contrary to popular belief there are plenty of people and situations where the best advise is to work on toughening up because at times it’s the best we can do to get through stuff, look at r vardy claiming poss ptsd,, ffs ptsd is the soldier seeing horror all around himself , the fireman pulling dead bodies from a fire , the police and ambulance personnel pulling dead bodies from car wrecks , it’s great we are looking to talk and help each other more now when at times we are struggling to cope but not everything is mental health , lots of the time it can changed by changing our attitudes to life because believe it or not life can at time be bloody hard work 

people really need to get a grip ,,, yes we need change but balanced ,though out , planned change ,,, not lurching from one stupid policy/ plan to another, will say it again , where’s the real study on the real impact of scrapping all fossil fuel cars for battery powered ones in this headlong rush , what’s the impact on the planet ? Where’s the power comming from to charge them all and still provide the energy we use and need already? 
call me stupid but I firmly believe the take make throw away , the plastics in landfills and oceans is a far bigger threat than this carbon neutral mantra and it is an area we can do lots about , carbon neutral policy at this point seems more geared to money generating take make throw away more of the same policy than anything balanced and good for the planet

I take it from your post that you are still somewhat of a climate skeptic.  I wonder how long it will be and what it will take before you are convinced. 

There is good news regarding the barrier reef, but it's still very susceptible to bleaching events and will continue to be. The current coral cover recovery seems to be driven by dramatic growth in a couple of hardy species, although overall species diversity seems to be down considerably. 

Acid Rain has ceased to be a major problem in Europe and North America since effective emission regulations were introduced by governments, drastically reducing sulphur dioxide emissions from industry.  In fact Acid Rain, along with the hole in the Ozone layer,  is an example of how effective Government Regulation can be in the face of serious environmental problems. 

Ice Ages are predominantly determined (at least they were before we started messing with our atmosphere) by the interplay between variations in our orbital cycle and our changing planetary orientation with respect to the Sun as well as other factors such as landmass distribution.  They are difficult to predict but they would happen naturally without any interference from us.

Yes, life is often hard. I don't see why that realization should make us determined to make life even harder for our future generations, when there are still so many things we can do the alleviate the worst.

There does seem to a contradiction in your insistence for a study into the impact of switching all combustion engines to EVs (which is a good idea), and what must be your dismissal of all the thousands of reports detailing the inevitability and the environmental impacts of climate change if we don't change course dramatically. EV's which in 10 years time will probably be using superior solid state rather than lithium batteries, will obviously get their power from extra electricity generation, hopefully most of which of will be renewable.  Nobody is suggesting that the fossil fuel plants can be switched off right now, but it needs to happen as rapidly as is feasible.  The change over will be expensive but the benefits won't be only climate related.  The post fossil fuel future is a better place, not only for our climate, but also the reduction in particulate air pollution will have a huge benefit on global health.  And won't it be nice not to have to worry about what the Saudis and Putin are charging for oil and gas?

[Archied]

Watching the news and reading the papers today ,,,,jeez just a few short years ago we would have been seeing happy brits smiling while filling the beaches and parks enjoying the the short summer ( wasn’t last years the coldest on record ? ) 

now we are having the joy sucked out of us by the media and people addiction to disaster crisis and bad news sells , the constant need for drama ,,,,oh yes I fear for our children and the miserable soulless existence headed they’re way 

[Highgate]

6 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

You've obviously not been watching the Tory leadership debates then??????? As one person described, this is the 'Olympics of Evil' in play and the perfect illustrator of why it is hard to challenge the extreme actions of the likes of Extinction Rebellion. The 'system' both doesn't want to listen to long term needs but also just doesn't know how to react. And, shamefully, the "I'm alright Jack" mantra spread in both UK and USA by the parties in power (and I'd still argue the Republicans are the real power in the US. Wade Roe anyone?), coupled with the isolationist philopsohies of China and Brazil, really leaves you struggling to see any positive signs of how we are going to prevent this. Sadly, since COP-26 I think this has almost spread an increased resistance to listen, something along the lines of "but we're clearly doomed anyway so why should we even bother".

But, again sadly, my personal view is that it won't be CO2 emissions that will get us in the end, but it will be biodiversity. Pesticides, plastics and deforestation will have a much more (and totally irreversible) dramatic tipping point than climate (though the two are obviously connected). 

TLDR: once the bees go, we are toast

Switching from live animal meat to lab/warehouse grown meat may help reduce emissions and help biodiversity.  Growing meat in the lab, which apparently is getting more feasible and cost effective all the time can hugely reduce our CO2e emissions as well as our water consumption.  And think of all the land that would then be free to turn back in native forest or whatever landscape is desirable.  It could have a huge positive effect for biodiversity, which as you rightly point out, is currently severely impoverished. Those re-wilded native forests would then draw CO2 out of the atmosphere as they grow yielding yet another long term benefit.

It would also be nice to not have the mass slaughter of domesticated animals on our conscience anymore. 

[Archied]

11 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I take it from your post that you are still somewhat of a climate skeptic.  I wonder how long it will be and what it will take before you are convinced. 

There is good news regarding the barrier reef, but it's still very susceptible to bleaching events and will continue to be. The current coral cover recovery seems to be driven by dramatic growth in a couple of hardy species, although overall species diversity seems to be down considerably. 

Acid Rain has ceased to be a major problem in Europe and North America since effective emission regulations were introduced by governments, drastically reducing sulphur dioxide emissions from industry.  In fact Acid Rain, along with the hole in the Ozone layer,  is an example of how effective Government Regulation can be in the face of serious environmental problems. 

Ice Ages are predominantly determined (at least they were before we started messing with our atmosphere) by the interplay between variations in our orbital cycle and our changing planetary orientation with respect to the Sun as well as other factors such as landmass distribution.  They are difficult to predict but they would happen naturally without any interference from us.

Yes, life is often hard. I don't see why that realization should make us determined to make life even harder for our future generations, when there are still so many things we can do the alleviate the worst.

There does seem to a contradiction in your insistence for a study into the impact of switching all combustion engines to EVs (which is a good idea), and what must be your dismissal of all the thousands of reports detailing the inevitability and the environmental impacts of climate change if we don't change course dramatically. EV's which in 10 years time will probably be using superior solid state rather than lithium batteries, will obviously get their power from extra electricity generation, hopefully most of which of will be renewable.  Nobody is suggesting that the fossil fuel plants can be switched off right now, but it needs to happen as rapidly as is feasible.  The change over will be expensive but the benefits won't be only climate related.  The post fossil fuel future is a better place, not only for our climate, but also the reduction in particulate air pollution will have a huge benefit on global health.  And won't it be nice not to have to worry about what the Saudis and Putin are charging for oil and gas?

Can’t remember, was it the Mormons who keep predicting the end of the world only to have to keep revising the date ?